JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Charles Collins on August 28, 2023, 05:29:08 PM
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Buell Frazier is but one example someone perhaps having a morphing memory. We haven’t seen any evidence of his morphing until recent years. But human memories can morph over time. Maybe a discussion of this is in order.
I am going to give an example based on a real event from about 50-years ago. While still barely teenagers but the drinking age lowered to 18 for a short while, some friends and I went to town to see an up and coming band (but mainly to drink beer). Here’s a photo of that band that was taken some 6-months before we saw them.
(https://i.vgy.me/tv1Typ.jpg)
If you didn’t recognize them, that is Lynyrd Skynyrd before they became well known. Here is my memory of that night:
We got there early and snagged a table right in front of the stage, maybe 10 feet from the band. The pitchers of beer flowed all evening. Sometime later on one of our group said something like “Hey, there’s someone who looks like Mick Jagger.” I thought to myself “no way.” I don’t remember seeing Mick Jagger or anyone that looked like him. I do remember a discussion as we were returning to the car about how good Lynyrd Skynyrd was.
Now, here is the memory of one of my friends. He is currently a very healthy and fit individual and happily married and enjoying life. He “remembers” that Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones joined Lynyrd Skynyrd on the stage and performed together with them. Now, I will confirm that we were all young and foolish and had had too much to drink. I can only guess that my friend had repeated the story over the years and it morphed (like a fish story) into what he actually believes at this point in time 50-years later. I got away from the heavy drinking a few years after this episode. He continued to drink heavily until maybe 15-years ago. I didn’t see him for all those years but our paths crossed about 8-years ago. And he firmly believes he saw Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones that night 50-years ago. I have researched enough to say that there is no evidence that Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones were there that night. But I doubt that anyone could ever convince my friend that he didn’t see them.
Anyway, this might be a good thread to discuss some of the witnesses to the JFK assassination whose memories appear to have morphed over the years. I already mentioned Buell Frazier, who else would anyone like to discuss?
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Howard Brennan
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Howard Brennan
::)
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I'm not aware of Buell's story morphing. He has been consistent for 60 years.
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I'm not aware of Buell's story morphing. He has been consistent for 60 years.
:D
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:D
How has it morphed?...please go on....
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Jean Hill, definitely. Ed Hoffman too.
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please go on....
:D :D :D
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How has it morphed?...please go on....
You edited your post after I responded. Here is a snip from Buell Frazier’s 11/22/63 affidavit:
I did not see Lee anymore after about 11:00 AM today, and at that time, we were both working, and we were on the first floor.
These days he claims that he saw LHO walking up Houston Street beside the TSBD soon after the assassination….
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::)
My reaction exactly when I read Brennan’s book.
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Charles Givens’ story morphed between November 22 and his WC testimony.
Warren Reynolds’ story morphed after he was shot in the head.
Nick McDonald’s story morphed every time he re-told it.
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Morphing memories (as I am defining them) are ones that change character entirely. I am not interested in memories in which small details might be misremembered because that is normal for us humans. For an example of a morphing memory, as I define it, if Buell Frazier had really seen LHO walking up Houston Street after the assassination, I don’t think that there is any way he could have forgotten that when he swore that he didn’t see LHO after 11:00 am when he made his affidavit on 11/22/63.
Also, the WC testimonies included questions by the investigators which were meant to bring out additional details that might not have been included in earlier statements. So, that type of thing isn’t really a morphed memory, as I am defining it.
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Morphing memories (as I am defining them) are ones that change character entirely. I am not interested in memories in which small details might be misremembered because that is normal for us humans. For an example of a morphing memory, as I define it, if Buell Frazier had really seen LHO walking up Houston Street after the assassination, I don’t think that there is any way he could have forgotten that when he swore that he didn’t see LHO after 11:00 am when he made his affidavit on 11/22/63.
Also, the WC testimonies included questions by the investigators which were meant to bring out additional details that might not have been included in earlier statements. So, that type of thing isn’t really a morphed memory, as I am defining it.
Certainly Buell could have forgotten he had seen Lee for a brief moment in his one time answer on an affidavit.
I was referring to his consistency regarding the bag he saw. I'm not aware of that story changing in 60 years.
...questions by the investigators which were meant to bring out additional details
:D
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Charles Givens’ story morphed between November 22 and his WC testimony.
Warren Reynolds’ story morphed after he was shot in the head.
Nick McDonald’s story morphed every time he re-told it.
Before he was shot in the head, Warren Reynolds told the FBI that he was "of the opinion" that the man he saw was Oswald.
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Morphing memories (as I am defining them) are ones that change character entirely. I am not interested in memories in which small details might be misremembered because that is normal for us humans. For an example of a morphing memory, as I define it, if Buell Frazier had really seen LHO walking up Houston Street after the assassination, I don’t think that there is any way he could have forgotten that when he swore that he didn’t see LHO after 11:00 am when he made his affidavit on 11/22/63.
Also, the WC testimonies included questions by the investigators which were meant to bring out additional details that might not have been included in earlier statements. So, that type of thing isn’t really a morphed memory, as I am defining it.
In 1968, during an interview (along with Penn Jones) with the L.A. Free Press, Roger Craig was asked about the Tippit shooting. Craig told the interviewer that the shooting occurred at 1:45.
Jones immediately corrected Craig, informing him that the shooting occurred around 1:15. Craig responded with "Oh? Is that right? Okay." (or words to that effect, I'm going by memory)
The bottom line is, in 1968, Craig obviously had no idea what time the Tippit shooting occurred.
Then, in the early 70's when writing his manuscript, Craig tells the story of being in Dealey Plaza and hearing of the shooting of the police officer in Oak Cliff. In the scenario, Craig supposedly looks at his watch and notes that it said the time was 1:06.
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Sounds like Roger Craig doesn’t meet Charles’ (arbitrary) standard of excluding “memories in which small details might be misremembered”.
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Before he was shot in the head, Warren Reynolds told the FBI that he was "of the opinion" that the man he saw was Oswald.
Here’s the part Bill conveniently left out:
“however, he would hesitate to definitely identify OSWALD as the individual.”
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Certainly Buell could have forgotten he had seen Lee for a brief moment in his one time answer on an affidavit.
I was referring to his consistency regarding the bag he saw. I'm not aware of that story changing in 60 years.
:D
Buell Frazier didn’t say a word about supposedly seeing LHO on Houston Street after the assassination until he wrote a book fifty something years later and was trying to sell it. Yes, he has been consistent regarding the size of the bag. But that is not the same as being correct.
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Here’s the part Bill conveniently left out:
“however, he would hesitate to definitely identify OSWALD as the individual.”
Thumb1:
The FBI just couldn't get Mr. Reynolds to make a positive identification of Mr. Oswald as the individual.
Two days later, Mr. Reynolds was shot in the head.
Thereafter, Mr. Reynolds was miraculously able to make a positive identification of Mr. Oswald as the individual.
Though he did, in fairness, try to hedge it a little:
Mr. LIEBELER. You later identified that man as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.REYNOLDS. In my mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your mind, that is what I mean.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw his picture in the newspaper and on television? Is that right?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes; unless you have somebody that looks an awful lot like him there.
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Buell Frazier didn’t say a word about supposedly seeing LHO on Houston Street after the assassination until he wrote a book fifty something years later and was trying to sell it. Yes, he has been consistent regarding the size of the bag. But that is not the same as being correct.
Are we talking about stories that morph or minor details changed, that don't really matter?
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Mr. LIEBELER. And you never saw Oswald continue on down the street--on down Jefferson or go in the Texas Theatre, and you never told the police that he had gone in that direction, did you?
Mr.REYNOLDS. I told the police he was going in that direction.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was going--you told the police he went into the parking lot, or what did you tell him?
Mr.REYNOLDS. That he was going west. I told them that he was going west, and I had assumed that he just cut through the parking lot and kept going the general direction he was going in.
As Mr. Dale Myers has shown, Mr. Reynolds is not being wholly truthful here: what he actually told the police was that he had seen the man go into the second-hand furniture store
Thumb1:
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Are we talking about stories that morph or minor details changed, that don't really matter?
Going from didn’t see him after 11:00 am to saw him walking up the street after the assassination is a major morph.
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Buell Frazier didn’t say a word about supposedly seeing LHO on Houston Street after the assassination until he wrote a book fifty something years later and was trying to sell it.
That’s false. His first public telling of the story of seeing Oswald on Houston street (that I’m aware of) was in an interview with Gary Mack in 2002. “Steering Truth” was published in 2021.
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Buell Frazier didn’t say a word about supposedly seeing LHO on Houston Street after the assassination until he wrote a book fifty something years later and was trying to sell it.
That's not right, Charles. As John Iacoletti has mentioned above, Buell didn't wait quite 50+ years to start telling his "I saw LHO on Houston St." story. AFAIK, it was the interview below with Gary Mack in 2002 in which that particular addition to Buell's story first surfaced:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-979.html
Buell then, in later interviews (and in his book), started "adding" more things to his story (see link below):
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2022/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1349.html
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That’s false. His first public telling of the story of seeing Oswald on Houston street (that I’m aware of) was in an interview with Gary Mack in 2002. “Steering Truth” was published in 2021.
That's not right, Charles. As John Iacoletti has mentioned above, Buell didn't wait quite 50+ years to start telling his "I saw LHO on Houston St." story. AFAIK, it was the interview below with Gary Mack in 2002 in which that particular addition to Buell's story first surfaced:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-979.html
Buell then, in later interviews (and in his book), started "adding" more things to his story (see link below):
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2022/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1349.html
Thanks guys, I stand corrected. So, it was only about 39-years after the assassination that Buell Frazier announced his morphed memory…
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While still barely teenagers but the drinking age lowered to 18 for a short while, some friends and I went to town to see an up and coming band (but mainly to drink beer). Here’s a photo of that band that was taken some 6-months before we saw them.
(https://i.vgy.me/tv1Typ.jpg)
If you didn’t recognize them, that is Lynyrd Skynyrd before they became well known. Here is my memory of that night:
We got there early and snagged a table right in front of the stage, maybe 10 feet from the band. The pitchers of beer flowed all evening. Sometime later on one of our group said something like “Hey, there’s someone who looks like Mick Jagger.” I thought to myself “no way.” I don’t remember seeing Mick Jagger or anyone that looked like him. I do remember a discussion as we were returning to the car about how good Lynyrd Skynyrd was.
Now, here is the memory of one of my friends. He is currently a very healthy and fit individual and happily married and enjoying life. He “remembers” that Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones joined Lynyrd Skynyrd on the stage and performed together with them. Now, I will confirm that we were all young and foolish and had had too much to drink. I can only guess that my friend had repeated the story over the years and it morphed (like a fish story) into what he actually believes at this point in time 50-years later. I got away from the heavy drinking a few years after this episode. He continued to drink heavily until maybe 15-years ago. I didn’t see him for all those years but our paths crossed about 8-years ago. And he firmly believes he saw Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones that night 50-years ago. I have researched enough to say that there is no evidence that Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones were there that night. But I doubt that anyone could ever convince my friend that he didn’t see them.
Mr. Collins, I think this calls for one of your high-stakes 3D model projects.
In publishing your digital recreation of the music venue, could you please include details of stage elevation and other such crucial matters?
Thumb1:
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Thanks guys, I stand corrected. So, it was only about 39 years after the assassination that Buell Frazier announced his morphed memory.
Correct. That is, unless Buell did some other lengthy interviews prior to the one in 2002. But I know of none. He did some very brief on-camera appearances for various JFK anniversary documentaries prior to '02, but no long interviews (that I know of).
Let me also add....
During his Warren Commission testimony in March of 1964, some four months after he wrote his 11/22/63 affidavit, Buell Frazier also said just what he had said in that Nov. 22 affidavit (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fnUXqaMoRpw/TvxpsigRUwI/AAAAAAAABzY/mDQwRYPV0lE/s9600-h/Buell-Wesley-Frazier-Affidavit.png)---that he had not seen Lee Oswald at all after the late morning hours on 11/22:
Mr. BALL - When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean on the 22nd?
Mr. BALL - On the 22nd, that day.
Mr. FRAZIER - Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.
Mr. BALL - That was the last time you saw him all day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't talk to him again?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
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Correct. That is, unless Buell did some other lengthy interviews prior to the one in 2002. But I know of none. He did some very brief on-camera appearances for various JFK anniversary documentaries prior to '02, but no long interviews (that I know of).
Let me also add....
During his Warren Commission testimony in March of 1964, some four months after he wrote his 11/22/63 affidavit, Buell Frazier also said he had not seen Lee Oswald at all after the late morning hours on 11/22:
Mr. BALL - When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean on the 22nd?
Mr. BALL - On the 22nd, that day.
Mr. FRAZIER - Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.
Mr. BALL - That was the last time you saw him all day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right
Mr. BALL - You didn't talk to him again?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - Oswald was standing in front of the east elevator?
Mr. LOVELADY - East, on back, the elevator back.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him?
Mr. LOVELADY - No; I didn't; I just heard his voice because---where those slats are in back of the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him again that day?
Mr. LOVELADY - No.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bv3c8Hsw/Lovelady-in-DPD.gif)
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Correct. That is, unless Buell did some other lengthy interviews prior to the one in 2002. But I know of none. He did some very brief on-camera appearances for various JFK anniversary documentaries prior to '02, but no long interviews (that I know of).
Let me also add....
During his Warren Commission testimony in March of 1964, some four months after he wrote his 11/22/63 affidavit, Buell Frazier also said just what he had said in that Nov. 22 affidavit (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fnUXqaMoRpw/TvxpsigRUwI/AAAAAAAABzY/mDQwRYPV0lE/s9600-h/Buell-Wesley-Frazier-Affidavit.png)---that he had not seen Lee Oswald at all after the late morning hours on 11/22:
Mr. BALL - When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean on the 22nd?
Mr. BALL - On the 22nd, that day.
Mr. FRAZIER - Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.
Mr. BALL - That was the last time you saw him all day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't talk to him again?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
I don’t remember if Buell Frazier ever offered a reasonable explanation for why he testified to this (if he had really seen LHO after the assassination). I simply cannot imagine that he could have possibly forgotten that. I do know that some people have mental blocks regarding extremely traumatic events (Jackie Kennedy not remembering crawling onto the trunk lid is an example). But supposedly seeing LHO walking up Houston Street after the assassination wouldn’t fall into that category.
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Jean Hill, definitely. Ed Hoffman too.
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My favourite morphing memory must belong to Bonnie Ray Williams.
In the immediate aftermath of the assassination Bonnie Ray completely forgets that after the men working on the sixth floor broke for lunch, he went back up to the sixth floor alone where he spent about 25 minutes having his lunch while waiting for the motorcade. Instead, his memory morphs into going down to the first floor, collecting his lunch and going back up to the FIFTH floor with Hank Norman and Junior Jarman. His time spent on the sixth floor alone, eating his lunch, seems to have vanished.
The very next day he is interviewed by the FBI and his memory once again morphs - this time he remembers going up to the sixth floor alone but not having his lunch. Instead, he had a quick look around, saw no-one was there and went down to the fifth floor. He was only on the sixth floor for about 3 minutes.
On January the 8th he is interviewed by the FBI again and his memory morphs again - he now remembers having lunch on the sixth floor, he is up there for about five minutes before going down to the fifth floor where he spends about 25 minutes with Hank and Junior waiting for the motorcade.
By the time of his 3/19/64 FBI interview his time spent on the sixth floor appears to have completely slipped his mind.
As impressive as his speed-morphing memory is up to this point, it's nothing compared to his WC testimony. When asked how long he was up on the sixth floor, Bonnie Ray replies "5, 10, maybe 12 minutes". Later in his testimony Bonnie Ray is asked what time he went down to the fifth floor, to which he replies "10 or 15 minutes after 12". He then breaks his speed-morphing memory record, after a single question:
Mr Ball: Approximately what time was it?
Mr Williams: Approximately 12:20, maybe.
From not remembering being on the sixth floor at all, to remembering he went up there but didn't have lunch, to remembering he went up there and did have lunch, to remembering he was up there for 3, 5, 10, 12 then 20 minutes, Bonnie Ray demonstrates a truly impressive ability to morph his memory.
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My favourite morphing memory must belong to Bonnie Ray Williams.
In the immediate aftermath of the assassination Bonnie Ray completely forgets that after the men working on the sixth floor broke for lunch, he went back up to the sixth floor alone where he spent about 25 minutes having his lunch while waiting for the motorcade. Instead, his memory morphs into going down to the first floor, collecting his lunch and going back up to the FIFTH floor with Hank Norman and Junior Jarman. His time spent on the sixth floor alone, eating his lunch, seems to have vanished.
The very next day he is interviewed by the FBI and his memory once again morphs - this time he remembers going up to the sixth floor alone but not having his lunch. Instead, he had a quick look around, saw no-one was there and went down to the fifth floor. He was only on the sixth floor for about 3 minutes.
On January the 8th he is interviewed by the FBI again and his memory morphs again - he now remembers having lunch on the sixth floor, he is up there for about five minutes before going down to the fifth floor where he spends about 25 minutes with Hank and Junior waiting for the motorcade.
By the time of his 3/19/64 FBI interview his time spent on the sixth floor appears to have completely slipped his mind.
As impressive as his speed-morphing memory is up to this point, it's nothing compared to his WC testimony. When asked how long he was up on the sixth floor, Bonnie Ray replies "5, 10, maybe 12 minutes". Later in his testimony Bonnie Ray is asked what time he went down to the fifth floor, to which he replies "10 or 15 minutes after 12". He then breaks his speed-morphing memory record, after a single question:
Mr Ball: Approximately what time was it?
Mr Williams: Approximately 12:20, maybe.
From not remembering being on the sixth floor at all, to remembering he went up there but didn't have lunch, to remembering he went up there and did have lunch, to remembering he was up there for 3, 5, 10, 12 then 20 minutes, Bonnie Ray demonstrates a truly impressive ability to morph his memory.
I had a vivid memory for years of having been at a Guns N' Roses concert at Madison Square Garden, but all my friends remembered it as a U2 show. They were such diehards that they threatened to murder me if I kept talking about Guns N' Roses. As time went on, my buried memories of the U2 show resurfaced.
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Another speed-morphing memory champ is Billy Lovelady.
His first statement to police immediately after the assassination is that he was stood on the front steps of the TSBD building watching the motorcade when he heard the shots, saw the commotion, then went back into the building. That he teamed up with Shelley, walked down to the railroad tracks, watched what was going on for a few minutes then re-entered the building through the little-known side door to the west, has completely morphed out of his memory.
By the time of his WC hearing it has morphed back into his memory, that he and Shelley entered the building through the west door. However, by the time of the HSCA investigation, when confronted with an image of himself stood outside the front steps of the TSBD building taken approximately ten minutes after the shooting, Lovelady's memory morphs again as he admits he didn't actually re-enter the TSBD building for 15 to 20 minutes after the assassination (meaning Vickie Adams' testimony was indeed altered).
Amazingly, Bill Shelley's memory morphs in exactly the same way as Lovelady's
Less than two hours after the assassination, Shelley has also forgotten he went down to the railroad tracks with Lovelady, checked out what was going on for a few minutes, then re-entered the building through the west door. By the time of his WC interview his memory has similarly morphed to include the visit down to the railroad tracks and the west door. During their WC testimonies, a quite incredible piece of synchronised memory morphing occurs between Lovelady and Shelley - both men independently remember officer Baker arriving at the TSBD steps about three minutes after the shooting and not 20- 30 seconds as film evidence proves. Truly extraordinary.
Shelley also remembers entering the west door of the TSBD along with Lovelady - impossible if Lovelady didn't enter the building for 15 to 20 minutes after the assassination as his testimony and the film/photographic record indicate.
Synchronised speed-morphing memory champs - Lovelady and Shelley.