JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Michael T. Griffith on December 06, 2023, 04:00:06 PM
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One of the first things I noticed about the lone-gunman theory is that most of the eyewitness accounts either contradict it or outright refute it, and that therefore WC apologists reject most of the eyewitness accounts as mistaken or fraudulent. This should be a big red flag that something is seriously wrong with the lone-nut scenario, because suspects are convicted and punished based mainly or solely on eyewitness testimony all the time in our courts of law.
Whether we're talking about the witnesses who said they saw Ferrie and Oswald together, or the dozens of witnesses who reported hearing shots from the grassy knoll (some of whom also saw smoke and smelled gun powder near the knoll), or the witnesses who said Oswald and Banister knew each other, or the witnesses who said that two of the shots came virtually at the same time (as in bang-bang, within a split-second of each other), or the witnesses who reported seeing Oswald at times and places that contradict the official version of Oswald's movements, or the witnesses who saw extra bullet strikes in Dealey Plaza or who saw extra bullets and bullet fragments after the shooting, etc.--in all these cases, and others, WC defenders reject the eyewitness accounts as mistaken or fraudulent.
Consider, for example, Secret Service agent Clint Hill's account that while he was riding on the back of Kennedy's limo for several minutes on the way to Parkland, he saw a large right-rear wound on JFK's head. Hill is just one of the dozens of witnesses who reported that JFK had a large wound on the right-rear part of his head.
Hill's account is compelling for two main reasons: One, his first observation of JFK's head wound was a prolonged, up-close look--he was within a few feet of JFK's head and had several minutes to view it. Two, Hill got two more looks at JFK's head that day, once at Parkland Hospital and again at the Bethesda morgue, and he went to the morgue for the express purpose of viewing and recording JFK's wounds. In his 11/30/63 statement on his activities on 11/22/63, Hill described what he saw:
As I lay over the top of the back seat I noticed a portion of the President's head on the right rear side was missing and he was bleeding profusely. Part of his brain was gone. (p. 3)
A few months later, Hill repeated this exact description to the WC:
Mr. HILL: The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head. (2 H 141)
Hill's description agrees with the descriptions given by the two Parkland nurses who actually handled JFK's head as they cleaned the head, packed the head wound with gauze, wrapped a sheet around the head, and prepared the body for placement in the casket--Nurses Diana Bowron and Doris Nelson. Both said they saw a large wound in the back of the head. When Nurse Nelson was shown the main autopsy photo of the back of the head, she dismissed the photo as false.
Hill's account also agrees with the description given by mortician Tom Robinson, who viewed the autopsy and who assisted with the reconstruction of JFK's skull after the autopsy. Robinson said there was a sizable, visible hole in the back of the head, and he even drew a diagram of the wound.
In 1978, Edward Reed, an x-ray technician during the autopsy, told the HSCA that there was a large wound in the “occipital region” of Kennedy’s head:
Reed recalled seeing three wounds. The first was very large and located in the right hemisphere in the occipital region. (HSCA Interview Summary of 4/21/78 Telephonic Interview of Edward F. Reed by HSCA Staffer Mark Flanagan, transcribed on May 11,1978, ARRB exhibit number MD 194, pp. 1-2)
I could literally go on and on for several pages with similar accounts from other witnesses. See Dr. Gary Aguilar's long article on this subject: http://www.assassinationweb.com/ag6.htm (http://www.assassinationweb.com/ag6.htm).
WC defenders would have us believe that all of those witnesses either lied or mistook the large wound above the right ear seen in the autopsy photos for a large wound 3-4 inches farther back on the skull that included part of the occiput. They cite the autopsy photos, which show the back of the head intact, even though one of the autopsy doctors, Dr. Pierre Finck, questioned how the main back-of-head photo had been authenticated, even though the primary autopsy photographer insisted that the autopsy brain photos were not the photos he took, even though the autopsy brain photos brazenly contradict the autopsy skull x-rays, and even though ARRB releases establish that the existing collection of autopsy photos is markedly incomplete and that some of the photos of the head were taken after the skull had been reconstructed. Rather than judge the autopsy photos by the dozens of mutually corroborating eyewitness accounts of a large right-rear head wound, WC defenders judge the eyewitness accounts by the autopsy photos.
I explore the conflict between the eyewitness testimony and the single-shooter scenario in the following article:
Only the Facts? Eyewitness Testimony vs. the Lone-Gunman Theory
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EWqCmVWKJYlFONAxoYa8CTBpja5ggQwu/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EWqCmVWKJYlFONAxoYa8CTBpja5ggQwu/view?usp=sharing)
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LN's do Not wanna believe JFK Assassination Eyewitnesses, and now they refute SCIENCE having determined that the "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE". What do they have left? Nothing but prejudiced, one sided, OPINION.
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WC defenders would have us believe that all of those witnesses either lied or mistook the large wound above the right ear seen in the autopsy photos for a large wound 3-4 inches farther back on the skull that included part of the occiput.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3132/5735690507_23d5b93c1c_w.jpg)
The reality is, it only happened one way, listen closely, it only happened one way, and there are many eyewitnesses who saw the following.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG7W5w9b/alotofevidence2-zpsri8gm5gr.jpg)
But beyond these reliable, truthful, consistent eyewitnesses, don't forget that the following authentic, forensically reinforced, corroborating images are the most important pieces of evidence.
The endlessly proven Zapruder film shows the same damage as seen in the Autopsy photo's
(https://i.postimg.cc/X72XB9JK/313cropenhanced.jpg)
The impossible to fake stereoscopic Autopsy photo's show the exact same wound as seen in the impossible to fake Zapruder film.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FR7XqJmv/JFKBOHlatest-700-1.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8xSbWFJ/JFKAutopsy-Morph.gif)
The authenticated head X-Rays of Kennedy also shows the exact same damage.
(https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0379073822000949-gr11.jpg)
Even the unpolluted eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza who were interviewed within an hour or two all saw the precise same damage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85jsH50J/first-day-dealey-polaza-eyewitnesses.gif)
I know Michael that you are desperate to believe a few doctors who never even touched the head wound, who were looking at an uncleaned bloody wound and only saw Kennedy's body without being turned over, yet some of these men described a neat punched out hole in the skull, is that even believable? Over the years I have looked at many many images of real life skull exit wounds and never ever have I seen the perfectly neat exit hole as described by McClelland, his description from the get go is fraught with contradictions, for instance on his first day report he describes a wound in the left temple, yes seriously!
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpSQC06P/Mc-Clelland-Bullspombleprofglidnoctobunsa-zpseecf9014.jpg)
Btw Michael, I know for a fact that you are too far gone and won't take any of this Rock Solid Evidence on board because basically you lack the technical knowledge of the complexities of altering the visual record, but even if these undeniably indisputable facts can reach 1 "on the fence" reader I will be eternally happy!
JohnM
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The above is where the LN's currently are. ON TILT
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53336821348_2a7bee6693_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pgc9L5) (https://flic.kr/p/2pgc9L5)
The Moorman photo shows the area missing on the back of his head. Clint Hill saw it as did Sam Kinney. This is the same defect that was sealed shut by Tom Robinson using a thin piece of rubber.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53336821348_2a7bee6693_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pgc9L5) (https://flic.kr/p/2pgc9L5)
The Moorman photo shows the area missing on the back of his head. Clint Hill saw it as did Sam Kinney. This is the same defect that was sealed shut by Tom Robinson using a thin piece of rubber.
Sorry Jarret but you don't know what you are looking at, the top of Kennedy's head shows a huge defect and is clearly missing in Moorman's photo and the torn edge of the scalp flap is a match for the Autopsy photo. The authenticated legitimate images and film frames are closely interwoven and all show the same injury.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L59BncHv/matching-Moorman-with-autopsy-photo.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Z315.jpg)
JohnM
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The above is where the LN's currently are.
Thanks Royell, yes the LNer's are currently at the forefront of the real SCIENCE in this case, backed by the most knowledgeable Forensic Scientists in a variety of fields from Medical EXPERTS with a combined at least Century of Education and first hand Experience, through to some of the World's finest Ballistic EXPERTS;
and in the Blue Corner.
Royell relies on a study which required guessing of passengers placement with a dollop of body distortion inserted into a "Bogus" film's still frame, which was only commissioned to satisfy a paying client. Go figure!
JohnM
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Thanks Royell, yes the LNer's are currently at the forefront of the real SCIENCE in this case, backed by the most knowledgeable Forensic Scientists in a variety of fields from Medical EXPERTS with a combined at least Century of Education and first hand Experience, through to some of the World's finest Ballistic EXPERTS;
and in the Blue Corner.
Royell relies on a study which required guessing of passengers placement with a dollop of body distortion inserted into a "Bogus" film's still frame, which was only commissioned to satisfy a paying client. Go figure!
JohnM
So here we have a Layman attempting to malign SCIENCE. How pathetic is that?
You can trot out all the Medical Experts you want. They have no impact. Cyril Wecht has been proven correct regarding the SBT traversing an obstacle course. And his appraisal of the SBT being the "Sine qua non" is spot on. Without the SBT, the lone assassin narrative is dead in the water. The Knott Labs Lazer 360 Science finding that the, "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE", has immediately rendered LN's DOA.
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Without the SBT, the lone assassin narrative is dead in the water.
Not according to the Warren Commission!
There is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President’s throat also caused Governor Connally’s wounds. However, Governor Connally’s testimony and certain other factors have given rise to some difference of opinion as to this probability, but there is no question in the mind of any member of the Commission that all the shots which caused the President’s and Governor Connally’s wounds were fired from the sixth-floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.
Sorry Royell, Try Again!
JohnM
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Not according to the Warren Commission!
There is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President’s throat also caused Governor Connally’s wounds. However, Governor Connally’s testimony and certain other factors have given rise to some difference of opinion as to this probability, but there is no question in the mind of any member of the Commission that all the shots which caused the President’s and Governor Connally’s wounds were fired from the sixth-floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.
Sorry Royell, Try Again!
JohnM
At one point in time, You played your cards from the Top of the deck. With the Knott Lab Laser 360 SCIENCE declaring, "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE", you have not only been forced into SCIENCE DENIAL, but now you're employing subterfuge on top of that. You well know that there were member(s) of the WC that doubted the SBT. There is no disputing this FACT. Doubting the SBT would also then question More than 3 shots being fired. Your claiming blanket WC approval of, "ALL shots which caused the President's and Governor Connally's wounds were fired from the sixth-floor window.............." is pure BS:: Stop besmirching yourself, pull yourself together, and get back, "on the wagon". You've fallen down. Way down!
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The reality is, it only happened one way, listen closely, it only happened one way, and there are many eyewitnesses who saw the following.
"Many" eyewitnesses??? You mean a few eyewitnesses. A few people compared to the 30-plus eyewitnesses who reported seeing a large back-of-head wound. But you take the few over the vast majority. And you don't seem to care that some of your few witnesses originally said the large wound was in the back of the head.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG7W5w9b/alotofevidence2-zpsri8gm5gr.jpg)
But beyond these reliable, truthful, consistent eyewitnesses, don't forget that the following authentic, forensically reinforced, corroborating images are the most important pieces of evidence.
LOL! Uh, you'd better take another look at the small number of witness-demonstration photos in your graphic. Some of them do not agree with the autopsy photos' gaping, shredded wound above the right ear. And the demo photos contradict each other. Sheesh, look at your own photos. How did you miss these conflicts?
Furthermore, Zapruder was demonstrating where the impact explosion occurred. I guess you forgot that Zapruder said shots were being fired from behind him?
When a frangible HV bullet hits a skull, it causes an explosion at the point of impact.
The endlessly proven Zapruder film shows the same damage as seen in the Autopsy photo's
"Endlessly proven" in Lone-Gunman La La Land. Why do you suppose the Zapruder film was secretly diverted to a CIA-contracted photo lab in Rochester and then taken to NPIC in DC? Hey? What was going on here? Do you know what the two NPIC officials who commented on the film said about they saw in the film that they viewed? Any idea?
Why don't you take a stab at refuting my article on the evidence of alteration in the Zapruder film?
Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YOK_7uLe49zgXADGQxkIH1dmaEcpyaWd/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YOK_7uLe49zgXADGQxkIH1dmaEcpyaWd/view?usp=sharing)
The impossible to fake stereoscopic Autopsy photo's show the exact same wound as seen in the impossible to fake Zapruder film.
You are years behind the information curve. I take it you're unaware that at least two of the autopsy photos are not stereoscopic.
And, no, the autopsy photos do not show "the exact same wound" seen in the Zapruder film. You must be kidding.
The authenticated head X-Rays of Kennedy also shows the exact same damage.
Another howler. "Authenticated x-rays"? Huh, you mean the x-rays that show at least one-third of the brain missing on the right side? How do you square that with the autopsy brain photos, which Bugliosi even admitted show only "an ounce or two" of missing brain tissue? How do you square the virtually intact brain in the autopsy brain photos with the known fact that pieces of JFK's brain were splattered over much of the rear and middle seats of the limo, onto the windshields of two of the trailing patrolmen, and onto the windshield and front hood of the follow-up car? "An ounce or two"? That's fiction.
How about the 6.5 mm object on the AP skull x-ray? We now know from multiple optical density measurements that it is not metallic and that it was ghosted over the image of the 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment on the outer table of the skull. The object does not appear on the lateral x-rays, a physical impossibility if the x-rays are pristine.
How about impossible white patch on the lateral x-rays? Nothing like it appears in any of JFK's pre-mortem x-rays, and nine other control x-rays likewise show no such impossibly bright white patch. The OD measurements show that if the white patch is authentic, JFK's skull was severely deformed, with bone running nearly from one side of the skull from that point to the other side, obviously an impossibility.
Even the unpolluted eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza who were interviewed within an hour or two all saw the precise same damage.
HUH??? How about Clint Hill?! Did you forget about him? He saw the wound close-up from about 15 seconds after the Z313 hit and for the next several minutes during the ride to Parkland Hospital. He saw the wound again in the ER at Parkland. And then he saw it again in the Bethesda morgue, and he went to the morgue for the express purpose of viewing and recording JFK's wounds. And, gee, what did he say about the large wound in his report on his 11/22/63 viewings of the wound? Hey? He said it was in the right-rear part of the head, as I documented in the OP.
I know Michael that you are desperate to believe a few doctors who never even touched the head wound, who were looking at an uncleaned bloody wound and only saw Kennedy's body without being turned over, yet some of these men described a neat punched out hole in the skull, is that even believable? Over the years I have looked at many many images of real life skull exit wounds and never ever have I seen the perfectly neat exit hole as described by McClelland, his description from the get go is fraught with contradictions, for instance on his first day report he describes a wound in the left temple, yes seriously!
Btw Michael, I know for a fact that you are too far gone and won't take any of this Rock Solid Evidence on board because basically you lack the technical knowledge of the complexities of altering the visual record, but even if these undeniably indisputable facts can reach 1 "on the fence" reader I will be eternally happy!
JohnM
This is laughable.
"Saw the body without being turned over"??? Nurse Nelson and Nurse Bowron cleaned JFK's head and the rest of his body, packed the head wound with gauze squares, and wrapped the head in a sheet to prepare the body for placement in the casket! And funeral worker Aubrey Rike then helped put JFK's body into the casket and was holding JFK's head in his hands--and he repeatedly said that he could feel the edges of a large wound in the back of the head, the same back-of-head wound that mortician Tom Robinson saw and handled when he helped to reconstruct JFK's skull after the autopsy.
Let's take a look at just some of the eyewitness accounts of the back-of-head wound:
PHILIP C. WEHLE: then Commanding officer of the military District of Washington, D. C., he described the head wound to the HSCA's Andy Purdy on 8-19-77 He did not describe it to the Warren Commission. A copy of memo on Purdy's interview with Wehle was only released in 1993. Purdy reported that Wehle said he was an observer during the later stages of the autopsy. "(Wehle) noticed a slight bruise over the right temple of the President but did not see any significant damage to any other part of the head. He noted that the wound was in the back of the head so he would not see it because the President was lying face up...." (HSCA record # 10010042, agency file # 002086, p. 2)
KEMP CLARK, MD: Professor and Director of Neurological Surgery at Parkland, in an undated note apparently written contemporaneously at Parkland described the President's skull wound as, "...in the occipital region of the skull... Through the head wound, blood and brain were extruding... There was a large wound in the right occipitoparietal region, from which profuse bleeding was occurring... There was considerable loss of scalp and bone tissue. Both cerebral and cerebellar tissue were extruding from the wound." (WC--CE#392)
In a hand written note dated 11-22-63, Dr. Clark wrote, "a large 3 x 3 cm remnant of cerebral tissue present....there was a smaller amount of cerebellar tissue present also....There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region....Much of the skull appeared gone at the brief examination...." (Exhibit #392: WC V17:9-10)
At a press conference 2&1/2 hours after the shooting Clark said, "The head wound could have been either the exit wound from the neck or it could have been a tangential wound, as it was simply a large, gaping loss of tissue." ("At the White House with Wayne Hawks" news conference, 11/22/63, 3:16 PM, CST, Dallas, Texas) This virtually contemporaneous description is not entirely unequivocal. However, if JFK's skull defect were not rearward, it is impossible to imagine Clark would have conjectured that the skull defect was the possible exit site of the neck wound, for Malcolm Perry, MD, who participated with him in the press conference, and had performed a tracheotomy on JFK, had just claimed three times the neck wound was a wound of entrance.
In a typed summary submitted to Rear Admiral Burkley on 11-23-63, Clark described the head wound as, "a large wound in the right occipito-parietal region... Both cerebral and cerebellar tissue were extruding from the wound. (Warren Report, p.518, Warren Commission Exhibit #392, Lifton, D. Best Evidence, p. 322)
MALCOLM PERRY, MD: In a note written at Parkland Hospital and dated, 11-22-63 Dr., Perry described the head wound as, "A large wound of the right posterior cranium..." (WC--V17:6--CE#392) Describing Kennedy's appearance to the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter Dr. Perry stated, "Yes, there was a large avulsive wound on the right posterior cranium...." (WC- V3:368) Later to Specter: "...I noted a large avulsive wound of the right parietal occipital area, in which both scalp and portions of skull were absent, and there was severe laceration of underlying brain tissue..." (WC--V3:372) In an interview with the HSCA's Andy Purdy in 1-11-78 Mr. Purdy reported that "Dr. Perry... believed the head wound was located on the "occipital parietal" (sic) region of the skull and that the right posterior aspect of the skull was missing..." (HSCA- V7:292-293) Perry told Mr. Purdy: "I looked at the head wound briefly by leaning over the table and noticed that the parietal occipital head wound was largely avulsive and there was visible brain tissue in the macard and some cerebellum seen..." (HSCA-V7:302-interview with Purdy 1-11-78).
RONALD COY JONES: was a senior General Surgery resident physician at Parkland Hospital. Under oath he told the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter, "...he had a large wound in the right posterior side of the head... There was large defect in the back side of the head as the President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood." (WC-V6:53-54) A few minutes later he described "what appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull". (WC-V6:56)
GENE AIKIN, MD: an anesthesiologist at Parkland told the Warren Commission under oath, "The back of the right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered with brain substance extruding." (WC-V6:65.) He later opined, "I assume the right occipitalparietal region was the exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head...". (WC-V6:67)
PAUL PETERS, MD: a resident physician at Parkland described the head wound to the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter under oath as, "...I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput...It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect." (WC-V6:71)
Peters told author Lifton on 11-12-66, "I was trying to think how he could have had a hole in his neck and a hole in the occiput, and the only answer we could think (of) was perhaps the bullet had gone in through the front, hit the bony spinal column, and exited through the back of the head, since a wound of exit is always bigger than a wound of entry." (David Lifton, Best Evidence. p. 317) Peters repeated this speculation in a speech on the subject on 4/2/92, in a talk entitled, "Who Killed JFK?", given at the 14th annual meeting of the Wilk-Amite Medical Society, at Centreville Academy, Centreville, Mississippi, according to a transcript furnished by Claude B. Slaton, of Zachary, Louisiana.)
As if to emphasize the low location of the skull wound, Peters elaborated to Lifton, "I'd be willing to swear that the wound was in the occiput, you know. I could see the occipital lobes clearly, and so I know it was that far back, on the skull. I could look inside the skull, and I thought it looked like the cerebellum was injured, or missing, because the occipital lobes seemed to rest almost on the foramen magnum. Now I didn't put my hand inside his head and lift up the occipital lobes, because I wasn't about to do that under the circumstances... (but it) looked like the occipital lobes were resting on the foramen magnum. It was as if something underneath them, that usually kept them up from that a little ways, namely, the cerebellum and brainstem, might have been injured, or missing." (David Lifton, Best Evidence, p. 324)
When shown enlarged Zapruder film frames depicting a right-anterior wound, Peters wrote, "The wound which you marked...I never saw and I don't think there was such a wound. I think that was simply an artifact of copying Zapruder's movie... The only wound I saw on President Kennedy's head was in the occipitoparietal area on the right side." (Personal letter to Wallace Milam 4-14-80, copy, courtesy of Wallace Milam to author Aguilar; also in Lifton, BE: 557)
Peters told author Livingstone that he and others closely examined JFK's skull wound. "...Dr. Jenkins commented that we'd better take a look at the brain before deciding whether to open the chest and to massage the heart with our hands, we stepped up and looked inside the skull and that's how I made note in my own mind of where the wound was in the skull." (Transcript of Livingstone interview with Peters. Peters repeated this assertion in a speech on the subject on 4/2/92, in a talk entitled, "Who Killed JFK?", given at the 14th annual meeting of the Wilk-Amite Medical Society, at Centreville Academy, Centreville, Mississippi, according to a transcript furnished by Claude B. Slaton, of Zachary, Louisiana.)
When shown by author Livingstone the HSCA's Dox drawings of the rear of JFK's skull prepared to precisely replicate the photographs, Peters claimed, "Well, this is an artist's drawing, and I don't think that it's consistent with what I saw... It's to, (sic) in the rear and to the side, that's the parietal area. So it's in the back and the side of the head, I would say in laymen's terms." To eliminate any confusion as to what Peters meant, Livingstone asked, "The way I read it (Lifton's question to Peters regarding the location of the head wound), you're saying that the center of the gaping wound that you did see was 2.5 centimeters to the right of the occipital protuberance." Peters answered, "Well, I wouldn't say that was the center of it (the skull wound he saw). I would say that was about where it began. Yeah." (Transcript of Livingstone interview with Paul Peters)
ROBERT GROSSMAN, MD: had just joined the staff of Parkland at the time of the assassination as an Instructor in Neurosurgery. He never testified to the Warren Commission or the HSCA. Authors Groden and Livingstone, however, claim, "He (Grossman) said that he saw two large holes in the head, as he told the (Boston) Globe, and he described a large hole squarely in the occiput, far too large for a bullet entry wound...". (HT-I Groden and Livingstone, p. 51)-& also Duffy & Ricci, The Assassination of John F. Kennedy--A Complete Book of Facts, p. 207-208.)
RICHARD BROOKS DULANEY, MD: was a first year general surgery resident at Parkland Hospital on the day of the assassination. He appeared before the Commission and claimed only, "...he had a large head wound---that was the first thing I noticed." Arlen Specter did not ask him to elaborate and Dulaney did not volunteer any additional details.(WC-V:114). However, Dulaney told journalist Ben Bradlee, Jr., "...Somebody lifted up his head and showed me the back of his head. We couldn't see much until they picked up his head. I was standing beside him. The wound was on the back of his head. On the back side" They lifted up the head and "the whole back-side was gone."
KENNETH EVERETT SALYER, MD: was an intern at Parkland at the time of JFK's death. In a Warren Commission interview with Arlen Specter, Salyer stated, "...(JFK) had a wound of his right temporal region...I came in on the left side of him and noticed that his major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area, at least from the point of view that I could see him, and other than that--nothing other than he did have a gaping scalp wound-- cranial wound" (Warren Commission-V6:81) Salyer reported to author Aguilar that the wound was right sided but extended both posterior to and anterior to the ear. He repeated a claim made to Robert Groden that the photographs appeared to have been tampered with.
Note: Specter asked Salyer, "To what extent did Dr. Crenshaw participate?" Salyer answered, "Dr. Crenshaw participated about the extent that I did. We were occupied in making sure an I. V. was going and hanging up a bottle of blood." Specter, "Is the--is Dr. Crenshaw a resident?" Salyer: "yes, he is a third-year resident. That's the reason I remember him specifically because we were sort of working there together on that." (Warren Commission, V6:81)
PAT HUTTON, RN: a nurse at Parkland who met the limousine and helped to wheel the President into Trauma Room 1 wrote a report soon after claiming, "Mr. Kennedy was bleeding profusely from a wound in the back of his head, and was lying there unresponsive." (Price Exhibit V21 H 216--Emphasis added). While helping with resuscitation efforts a physician asked her to apply a pressure dressing to the head wound, she observed, however, that, "This was no use, however, because of the massive opening in the back of the head." (IBID)
DORIS NELSON, RN: was a supervising nurse at Parkland. She was interviewed by Arlen Specter for the Warren Commission and she was neither asked or volunteered information regarding the nature of JFK's wounds. (WC-V6:143-147) As Groden and Livingstone reported, however, journalist Ben Bradlee, Jr. asked her, "Did you get a good look at his head injuries?" Nelson: "A very good look...When we wrapped him up and put him in the coffin. I saw his whole head." Asked about the accuracy of the HSCA autopsy photographs she reacted: "No. It's not true. Because there was no hair back there. There wasn't even hair back there. It was blown away. Some of his head was blown away and his brains were fallen down on the stretcher." (High Treason I. p. 454)
NURSE DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON: greeted the limousine with a stretcher. She claimed, "...the back of his head...well, it was very bad--you know..." Arlen Specter failed to elucidate what she meant by the "back of the head" being very bad. (emphasis added) (WC V6:136:) Within 48 hours of the assassination the British press relayed a second hand account from Bowron through her mother: "...there was blood all over this neck and shoulders. There was a gaping wound in the back of his head." (Livingstone, Killing the Truth , p. 180) Author Livingstone corresponded and spoke by phone with Bowron in 1993. He reported that Bowron claimed, "I first saw the large wound in the back of the head in the car. When we were preparing the body for the coffin I had the opportunity to examine it more closely. It was about five inches in diameter and there was no flap of skin covering it, just a fraction of skin along part of the edges of bone. There was, however, some hair hanging down from the top of the head, which was caked with blood, and most of the brain was missing. The wound was so large I could almost put my whole left fist inside." (Livingstone, Killing the Truth, p. 181) She also said, "...The hole was basically almost the size of a saucer, and sort of from the occiput. So there was quite a reasonable amount missing from the top as well." (Livingstone, Killing the Truth, p. 190) When asked her opinion of the nature of the defect in the rear of the skull, Bowron told Livingstone, "Well, to me it was an exit hole." (Livingstone, Killing the Truth, p. 192) Livingstone asked, "Did you see any entry hole in the back of the head?". "I assumed and I still do that that was an exit wound." Bowron answered. (Killing the Truth , p. 195). Bowron prepared a drawing depicting the skull wound as she saw it for Livingstone which bears a striking similarity to the diagram of the wound prepared by Robert McClelland, MD and agreed to by Paul Peters, MD (High Treason in group of images following p. 23 in hard cover edition.) It shows a defect squarely in the occiput on the right side; a second diagram depicting the skull from above shows the right rear quadrant of the skull absent with the notation "missing". (Killing the Truth, in images following p. 368)
And, as I've already documented, Nurse Bowron told the WC that she saw a large wound in the back of JFK's head.
GODFREY McHUGH: was President Kennedy's Air Force Aid, and was present with Kennedy in Dallas and traveled with the body to Bethesda. He described the head wound to author David Lifton (BE:430) in a recorded interview: "...he was in absolute perfect shape, except the back of the head, top back of the head, had an explosive bullet in it (sic) and was badly damaged..."
Later to clarify the point Lifton asked: "When you think of the head wounds, then, you think of, primarily, the top of the head, or primarily the back of the head? McHugh answered, "Both. Ninety-nine percent the back, the top back of the head... that's the portion that had been badly damaged by the bullet." (BE:432) Lifton, to leave no doubt about what was meant then asked McHugh to define the back of the head. McHugh answered: "The portion that is in the back of the head, when you're lying down in the bathtub, you hit the back of the head." (BE, p. 430)
SECRET SERVICE AGENT ROY KELLERMAN: under oath before the Warren Commission explained the head wound he saw to Arlen Specter, "He had a large wound this size." Specter: "Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches would that be approximately correct?" (sic) Kellerman: "Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head." Specter: "Indicating the rear portion of the head." Kellerman: "Yes." Specter: "More to the right side of the head." Kellerman: "Right. This was removed." Specter: "When you say, "This was removed", what do you mean by this?" Kellerman: "The skull part was removed." Specter: "All right." Kellerman: "To the left of the (right) ear, sir, and a little high; yes...(I recall that this portion of the rear portion of the skull) was absent when I saw him." (WC-V2:80- 81)
JOHN EBERSOLE, MD: was Assistant Chief of Radiology and head of the Radiology Division at Bethesda, and was the radiologist who evaluated the X-rays in close cooperation with the autopsists on the night of the autopsy. He was not called to testify before the Warren Commission. However he was called to testify by the HSCA on March 11, 1978. Ebersole's deposition was not published by the HSCA causing it to be sealed for 50 years under congressional rules. (Due to pressure, however, the transcript of his interview was released in October, 1993.) A brief wire service account appeared regarding his appearance before the HSCA claiming that he agreed with the Warren Commissions' conclusions. However, in an interview with reporter Gil Dulaney published two days before his HSCA appearance Ebersole said of the head wound, "When the body was removed from the casket there was a very obvious horrible gaping wound to the back of the head (BE:543).", and "The front of the body, except for a very slight bruise above the right eye on the forehead, was absolutely intact. It was the back of the head that was blown off." (BE:546)
And we now know that Ebersole told the HSCA that one of the late-arriving skull fragments was occipital bone, which agrees with Boswell's stunning revelation to the ARRB that part of the EOP entry wound was contained in one of the late-arriving skull fragments. (Boswell said this to the HSCA FPP as well, but they ignored it.)
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"Many" eyewitnesses??? You mean a few eyewitnesses. A few people compared to the 30-plus eyewitnesses who reported seeing a large back-of-head wound. But you take the few over the vast majority. And you don't seem to care that some of your few witnesses originally said the large wound was in the back of the head.
LOL! Uh, you'd better take another look at the small number of witness-demonstration photos in your graphic. Some of them do not agree with the autopsy photos' gaping, shredded wound above the right ear. And the demo photos contradict each other. Sheesh, look at your own photos. How did you miss these conflicts?
Furthermore, Zapruder was demonstrating where the impact explosion occurred. I guess you forgot that Zapruder said shots were being fired from behind him?
When a frangible HV bullet hits a skull, it causes an explosion at the point of impact.
"Endlessly proven" in Lone-Gunman La La Land. Why do you suppose the Zapruder film was secretly diverted to a CIA-contracted photo lab in Rochester and then taken to NPIC in DC? Hey? What was going on here? Do you know what the two NPIC officials who commented on the film said about they saw in the film that they viewed? Any idea?
Why don't you take a stab at refuting my article on the evidence of alteration in the Zapruder film?
Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YOK_7uLe49zgXADGQxkIH1dmaEcpyaWd/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YOK_7uLe49zgXADGQxkIH1dmaEcpyaWd/view?usp=sharing)
You are years behind the information curve. I take it you're unaware that at least two of the autopsy photos are not stereoscopic.
And, no, the autopsy photos do not show "the exact same wound" seen in the Zapruder film. You must be kidding.
Another howler. "Authenticated x-rays"? Huh, you mean the x-rays that show at least one-third of the brain missing on the right side? How do you square that with the autopsy brain photos, which Bugliosi even admitted show only "an ounce or two" of missing brain tissue? How do you square the virtually intact brain in the autopsy brain photos with the known fact that pieces of JFK's brain were splattered over much of the rear and middle seats of the limo, onto the windshields of two of the trailing patrolmen, and onto the windshield and front hood of the follow-up car? "An ounce or two"? That's fiction.
How about the 6.5 mm object on the AP skull x-ray? We now know from multiple optical density measurements that it is not metallic and that it was ghosted over the image of the 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment on the outer table of the skull. The object does not appear on the lateral x-rays, a physical impossibility if the x-rays are pristine.
How about impossible white patch on the lateral x-rays? Nothing like it appears in any of JFK's pre-mortem x-rays, and nine other control x-rays likewise show no such impossibly bright white patch. The OD measurements show that if the white patch is authentic, JFK's skull was severely deformed, with bone running nearly from one side of the skull from that point to the other side, obviously an impossibility.
HUH??? How about Clint Hill?! Did you forget about him? He saw the wound close-up from about 15 seconds after the Z313 hit and for the next several minutes during the ride to Parkland Hospital. He saw the wound again in the ER at Parkland. And then he saw it again in the Bethesda morgue, and he went to the morgue for the express purpose of viewing and recording JFK's wounds. And, gee, what did he say about the large wound in his report on his 11/22/63 viewings of the wound? Hey? He said it was in the right-rear part of the head, as I documented in the OP.
This is laughable.
"Saw the body without being turned over"??? Nurse Nelson and Nurse Bowron cleaned JFK's head and the rest of his body, packed the head wound with gauze squares, and wrapped the head in a sheet to prepare the body for placement in the casket! And funeral worker Aubrey Rike then helped put JFK's body into the casket and was holding JFK's head in his hands--and he repeatedly said that he could feel the edges of a large wound in the back of the head, the same back-of-head wound that mortician Tom Robinson saw and handled when he helped to reconstruct JFK's skull after the autopsy.
Let's take a look at just some of the eyewitness accounts of the back-of-head wound:
PHILIP C. WEHLE: then Commanding officer of the military District of Washington, D. C., he described the head wound to the HSCA's Andy Purdy on 8-19-77 He did not describe it to the Warren Commission. A copy of memo on Purdy's interview with Wehle was only released in 1993. Purdy reported that Wehle said he was an observer during the later stages of the autopsy. "(Wehle) noticed a slight bruise over the right temple of the President but did not see any significant damage to any other part of the head. He noted that the wound was in the back of the head so he would not see it because the President was lying face up...." (HSCA record # 10010042, agency file # 002086, p. 2)
KEMP CLARK, MD: Professor and Director of Neurological Surgery at Parkland, in an undated note apparently written contemporaneously at Parkland described the President's skull wound as, "...in the occipital region of the skull... Through the head wound, blood and brain were extruding... There was a large wound in the right occipitoparietal region, from which profuse bleeding was occurring... There was considerable loss of scalp and bone tissue. Both cerebral and cerebellar tissue were extruding from the wound." (WC--CE#392)
In a hand written note dated 11-22-63, Dr. Clark wrote, "a large 3 x 3 cm remnant of cerebral tissue present....there was a smaller amount of cerebellar tissue present also....There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region....Much of the skull appeared gone at the brief examination...." (Exhibit #392: WC V17:9-10)
At a press conference 2&1/2 hours after the shooting Clark said, "The head wound could have been either the exit wound from the neck or it could have been a tangential wound, as it was simply a large, gaping loss of tissue." ("At the White House with Wayne Hawks" news conference, 11/22/63, 3:16 PM, CST, Dallas, Texas) This virtually contemporaneous description is not entirely unequivocal. However, if JFK's skull defect were not rearward, it is impossible to imagine Clark would have conjectured that the skull defect was the possible exit site of the neck wound, for Malcolm Perry, MD, who participated with him in the press conference, and had performed a tracheotomy on JFK, had just claimed three times the neck wound was a wound of entrance.
In a typed summary submitted to Rear Admiral Burkley on 11-23-63, Clark described the head wound as, "a large wound in the right occipito-parietal region... Both cerebral and cerebellar tissue were extruding from the wound. (Warren Report, p.518, Warren Commission Exhibit #392, Lifton, D. Best Evidence, p. 322)
MALCOLM PERRY, MD: In a note written at Parkland Hospital and dated, 11-22-63 Dr., Perry described the head wound as, "A large wound of the right posterior cranium..." (WC--V17:6--CE#392) Describing Kennedy's appearance to the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter Dr. Perry stated, "Yes, there was a large avulsive wound on the right posterior cranium...." (WC- V3:368) Later to Specter: "...I noted a large avulsive wound of the right parietal occipital area, in which both scalp and portions of skull were absent, and there was severe laceration of underlying brain tissue..." (WC--V3:372) In an interview with the HSCA's Andy Purdy in 1-11-78 Mr. Purdy reported that "Dr. Perry... believed the head wound was located on the "occipital parietal" (sic) region of the skull and that the right posterior aspect of the skull was missing..." (HSCA- V7:292-293) Perry told Mr. Purdy: "I looked at the head wound briefly by leaning over the table and noticed that the parietal occipital head wound was largely avulsive and there was visible brain tissue in the macard and some cerebellum seen..." (HSCA-V7:302-interview with Purdy 1-11-78).
RONALD COY JONES: was a senior General Surgery resident physician at Parkland Hospital. Under oath he told the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter, "...he had a large wound in the right posterior side of the head... There was large defect in the back side of the head as the President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood." (WC-V6:53-54) A few minutes later he described "what appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull". (WC-V6:56)
GENE AIKIN, MD: an anesthesiologist at Parkland told the Warren Commission under oath, "The back of the right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered with brain substance extruding." (WC-V6:65.) He later opined, "I assume the right occipitalparietal region was the exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head...". (WC-V6:67)
PAUL PETERS, MD: a resident physician at Parkland described the head wound to the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter under oath as, "...I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput...It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect." (WC-V6:71)
Peters told author Lifton on 11-12-66, "I was trying to think how he could have had a hole in his neck and a hole in the occiput, and the only answer we could think (of) was perhaps the bullet had gone in through the front, hit the bony spinal column, and exited through the back of the head, since a wound of exit is always bigger than a wound of entry." (David Lifton, Best Evidence. p. 317) Peters repeated this speculation in a speech on the subject on 4/2/92, in a talk entitled, "Who Killed JFK?", given at the 14th annual meeting of the Wilk-Amite Medical Society, at Centreville Academy, Centreville, Mississippi, according to a transcript furnished by Claude B. Slaton, of Zachary, Louisiana.)
As if to emphasize the low location of the skull wound, Peters elaborated to Lifton, "I'd be willing to swear that the wound was in the occiput, you know. I could see the occipital lobes clearly, and so I know it was that far back, on the skull. I could look inside the skull, and I thought it looked like the cerebellum was injured, or missing, because the occipital lobes seemed to rest almost on the foramen magnum. Now I didn't put my hand inside his head and lift up the occipital lobes, because I wasn't about to do that under the circumstances... (but it) looked like the occipital lobes were resting on the foramen magnum. It was as if something underneath them, that usually kept them up from that a little ways, namely, the cerebellum and brainstem, might have been injured, or missing." (David Lifton, Best Evidence, p. 324)
When shown enlarged Zapruder film frames depicting a right-anterior wound, Peters wrote, "The wound which you marked...I never saw and I don't think there was such a wound. I think that was simply an artifact of copying Zapruder's movie... The only wound I saw on President Kennedy's head was in the occipitoparietal area on the right side." (Personal letter to Wallace Milam 4-14-80, copy, courtesy of Wallace Milam to author Aguilar; also in Lifton, BE: 557)
Peters told author Livingstone that he and others closely examined JFK's skull wound. "...Dr. Jenkins commented that we'd better take a look at the brain before deciding whether to open the chest and to massage the heart with our hands, we stepped up and looked inside the skull and that's how I made note in my own mind of where the wound was in the skull." (Transcript of Livingstone interview with Peters. Peters repeated this assertion in a speech on the subject on 4/2/92, in a talk entitled, "Who Killed JFK?", given at the 14th annual meeting of the Wilk-Amite Medical Society, at Centreville Academy, Centreville, Mississippi, according to a transcript furnished by Claude B. Slaton, of Zachary, Louisiana.)
When shown by author Livingstone the HSCA's Dox drawings of the rear of JFK's skull prepared to precisely replicate the photographs, Peters claimed, "Well, this is an artist's drawing, and I don't think that it's consistent with what I saw... It's to, (sic) in the rear and to the side, that's the parietal area. So it's in the back and the side of the head, I would say in laymen's terms." To eliminate any confusion as to what Peters meant, Livingstone asked, "The way I read it (Lifton's question to Peters regarding the location of the head wound), you're saying that the center of the gaping wound that you did see was 2.5 centimeters to the right of the occipital protuberance." Peters answered, "Well, I wouldn't say that was the center of it (the skull wound he saw). I would say that was about where it began. Yeah." (Transcript of Livingstone interview with Paul Peters)
ROBERT GROSSMAN, MD: had just joined the staff of Parkland at the time of the assassination as an Instructor in Neurosurgery. He never testified to the Warren Commission or the HSCA. Authors Groden and Livingstone, however, claim, "He (Grossman) said that he saw two large holes in the head, as he told the (Boston) Globe, and he described a large hole squarely in the occiput, far too large for a bullet entry wound...". (HT-I Groden and Livingstone, p. 51)-& also Duffy & Ricci, The Assassination of John F. Kennedy--A Complete Book of Facts, p. 207-208.)
RICHARD BROOKS DULANEY, MD: was a first year general surgery resident at Parkland Hospital on the day of the assassination. He appeared before the Commission and claimed only, "...he had a large head wound---that was the first thing I noticed." Arlen Specter did not ask him to elaborate and Dulaney did not volunteer any additional details.(WC-V:114). However, Dulaney told journalist Ben Bradlee, Jr., "...Somebody lifted up his head and showed me the back of his head. We couldn't see much until they picked up his head. I was standing beside him. The wound was on the back of his head. On the back side" They lifted up the head and "the whole back-side was gone."
KENNETH EVERETT SALYER, MD: was an intern at Parkland at the time of JFK's death. In a Warren Commission interview with Arlen Specter, Salyer stated, "...(JFK) had a wound of his right temporal region...I came in on the left side of him and noticed that his major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area, at least from the point of view that I could see him, and other than that--nothing other than he did have a gaping scalp wound-- cranial wound" (Warren Commission-V6:81) Salyer reported to author Aguilar that the wound was right sided but extended both posterior to and anterior to the ear. He repeated a claim made to Robert Groden that the photographs appeared to have been tampered with.
Note: Specter asked Salyer, "To what extent did Dr. Crenshaw participate?" Salyer answered, "Dr. Crenshaw participated about the extent that I did. We were occupied in making sure an I. V. was going and hanging up a bottle of blood." Specter, "Is the--is Dr. Crenshaw a resident?" Salyer: "yes, he is a third-year resident. That's the reason I remember him specifically because we were sort of working there together on that." (Warren Commission, V6:81)
PAT HUTTON, RN: a nurse at Parkland who met the limousine and helped to wheel the President into Trauma Room 1 wrote a report soon after claiming, "Mr. Kennedy was bleeding profusely from a wound in the back of his head, and was lying there unresponsive." (Price Exhibit V21 H 216--Emphasis added). While helping with resuscitation efforts a physician asked her to apply a pressure dressing to the head wound, she observed, however, that, "This was no use, however, because of the massive opening in the back of the head." (IBID)
DORIS NELSON, RN: was a supervising nurse at Parkland. She was interviewed by Arlen Specter for the Warren Commission and she was neither asked or volunteered information regarding the nature of JFK's wounds. (WC-V6:143-147) As Groden and Livingstone reported, however, journalist Ben Bradlee, Jr. asked her, "Did you get a good look at his head injuries?" Nelson: "A very good look...When we wrapped him up and put him in the coffin. I saw his whole head." Asked about the accuracy of the HSCA autopsy photographs she reacted: "No. It's not true. Because there was no hair back there. There wasn't even hair back there. It was blown away. Some of his head was blown away and his brains were fallen down on the stretcher." (High Treason I. p. 454)
NURSE DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON: greeted the limousine with a stretcher. She claimed, "...the back of his head...well, it was very bad--you know..." Arlen Specter failed to elucidate what she meant by the "back of the head" being very bad. (emphasis added) (WC V6:136:) Within 48 hours of the assassination the British press relayed a second hand account from Bowron through her mother: "...there was blood all over this neck and shoulders. There was a gaping wound in the back of his head." (Livingstone, Killing the Truth , p. 180) Author Livingstone corresponded and spoke by phone with Bowron in 1993. He reported that Bowron claimed, "I first saw the large wound in the back of the head in the car. When we were preparing the body for the coffin I had the opportunity to examine it more closely. It was about five inches in diameter and there was no flap of skin covering it, just a fraction of skin along part of the edges of bone. There was, however, some hair hanging down from the top of the head, which was caked with blood, and most of the brain was missing. The wound was so large I could almost put my whole left fist inside." (Livingstone, Killing the Truth, p. 181) She also said, "...The hole was basically almost the size of a saucer, and sort of from the occiput. So there was quite a reasonable amount missing from the top as well." (Livingstone, Killing the Truth, p. 190) When asked her opinion of the nature of the defect in the rear of the skull, Bowron told Livingstone, "Well, to me it was an exit hole." (Livingstone, Killing the Truth, p. 192) Livingstone asked, "Did you see any entry hole in the back of the head?". "I assumed and I still do that that was an exit wound." Bowron answered. (Killing the Truth , p. 195). Bowron prepared a drawing depicting the skull wound as she saw it for Livingstone which bears a striking similarity to the diagram of the wound prepared by Robert McClelland, MD and agreed to by Paul Peters, MD (High Treason in group of images following p. 23 in hard cover edition.) It shows a defect squarely in the occiput on the right side; a second diagram depicting the skull from above shows the right rear quadrant of the skull absent with the notation "missing". (Killing the Truth, in images following p. 368)
And, as I've already documented, Nurse Bowron told the WC that she saw a large wound in the back of JFK's head.
GODFREY McHUGH: was President Kennedy's Air Force Aid, and was present with Kennedy in Dallas and traveled with the body to Bethesda. He described the head wound to author David Lifton (BE:430) in a recorded interview: "...he was in absolute perfect shape, except the back of the head, top back of the head, had an explosive bullet in it (sic) and was badly damaged..."
Later to clarify the point Lifton asked: "When you think of the head wounds, then, you think of, primarily, the top of the head, or primarily the back of the head? McHugh answered, "Both. Ninety-nine percent the back, the top back of the head... that's the portion that had been badly damaged by the bullet." (BE:432) Lifton, to leave no doubt about what was meant then asked McHugh to define the back of the head. McHugh answered: "The portion that is in the back of the head, when you're lying down in the bathtub, you hit the back of the head." (BE, p. 430)
SECRET SERVICE AGENT ROY KELLERMAN: under oath before the Warren Commission explained the head wound he saw to Arlen Specter, "He had a large wound this size." Specter: "Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches would that be approximately correct?" (sic) Kellerman: "Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head." Specter: "Indicating the rear portion of the head." Kellerman: "Yes." Specter: "More to the right side of the head." Kellerman: "Right. This was removed." Specter: "When you say, "This was removed", what do you mean by this?" Kellerman: "The skull part was removed." Specter: "All right." Kellerman: "To the left of the (right) ear, sir, and a little high; yes...(I recall that this portion of the rear portion of the skull) was absent when I saw him." (WC-V2:80- 81)
JOHN EBERSOLE, MD: was Assistant Chief of Radiology and head of the Radiology Division at Bethesda, and was the radiologist who evaluated the X-rays in close cooperation with the autopsists on the night of the autopsy. He was not called to testify before the Warren Commission. However he was called to testify by the HSCA on March 11, 1978. Ebersole's deposition was not published by the HSCA causing it to be sealed for 50 years under congressional rules. (Due to pressure, however, the transcript of his interview was released in October, 1993.) A brief wire service account appeared regarding his appearance before the HSCA claiming that he agreed with the Warren Commissions' conclusions. However, in an interview with reporter Gil Dulaney published two days before his HSCA appearance Ebersole said of the head wound, "When the body was removed from the casket there was a very obvious horrible gaping wound to the back of the head (BE:543).", and "The front of the body, except for a very slight bruise above the right eye on the forehead, was absolutely intact. It was the back of the head that was blown off." (BE:546)
And we now know that Ebersole told the HSCA that one of the late-arriving skull fragments was occipital bone, which agrees with Boswell's stunning revelation to the ARRB that part of the EOP entry wound was contained in one of the late-arriving skull fragments. (Boswell said this to the HSCA FPP as well, but they ignored it.)
Yeah Clint Hill, thanks for reminding me, here he's demonstrating on what he saw because your self serving misinterpretation of his words has gone on for far too long.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkMGg1Rz/Clintshowem.gif)
And talk about even more misrepresentation, I see way more than a few eyewitnesses and all of the eyewitnesses are pointing to where they saw a wound and the Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses who from their perspective are pointing to where they saw the obvious dangling bone flap and the direction of the majority of exploding matter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG7W5w9b/alotofevidence2-zpsri8gm5gr.jpg)
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-06-2016/kFuygg.gif)
And here's some of your eyewitnesses who are clearly not demonstrating the exact location of the neat blow out hole as seen in McClelland's drawing. Oops!
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4YGfqSR/Eyewitness-inconsistencies.gif)
and by the way how do you explain McClelland under oath declaring that while standing, he looked down into Kennedys wound? Double Oops!
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpSQC06P/Mc-Clelland-Bullspombleprofglidnoctobunsa-zpseecf9014.jpg)
You are years behind the information curve. I take it you're unaware that at least two of the autopsy photos are not stereoscopic.
Another pathetic Griffith tactic, first of all claim that a Griffith critic somehow is unaware of some obscure self indulgent recent revelation of which in this case are few and far between and secondly I never claimed that all the photos were in stereo pairs but the stereoscopic we have prove beyond all doubt that the back of head was intact and the top of head stereoscopic pair prove beyond all doubt the extent of the injury.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJgs2qGJ/JFK-Autopsy-Morph.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FR7XqJmv/JFKBOHlatest-700-1.gif)
"Endlessly proven" in Lone-Gunman La La Land. Why do you suppose the Zapruder film was secretly diverted to a CIA-contracted photo lab in Rochester and then taken to NPIC in DC? Hey? What was going on here? Do you know what the two NPIC officials who commented on the film said about they saw in the film that they viewed? Any idea?
You know David Healey a supposed film alterationist expert and iirc was a consultant for a Fetzer Zapruder Fakery book/video. With the aid of modern computers and photoshop which by the way is light years ahead of the primitive techniques used at the time, he attempted a basic foreground cut out with a reinsertion Matte and this single frame looks like crap. A moving film is infinitely more difficult, then the compounding motion blur needs to be addressed which by the way is perfectly realized in the current Zapruder Film. You are so far out of your depth you need children floaties to keep your head above water.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4PTzHTW/David-Healey-Zapruder.jpg)
Why don't you take a stab at refuting my article on the evidence of alteration in the Zapruder film?
Where you talk about the "impossible" movement of Brehm's son? A movement which I stabilized and is completely normal and furthermore at a point in the film where nothing happens? Give me a break!
(https://i.postimg.cc/zv2ZBwL7/Brehm-Zaprudera.gif)
So there you have it Ladies and Gentlemen, Girls and Boys, Griffith has tried to say that the key to this assassination was a literal Truckload of Fakery which by and large would be basically impossible even today but he wants us to believe that some "alien" technology back in the dark ages was behind it all. Wow just WOW!
JohnM
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SA Clint Hill continues perpetuating the LIE that the JFK Limo did Not Stop on its' way to Parkland Hospital. He has been consistently telling this LIE for Over 60 yrs now. Why would I believe anything this man says when he continues pitching this Company Lie. Anybody pushing a Company Lie is a Company Man. What else is he lying about? SA Clint Hill has Serious Credibility Issues.
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SA Clint Hill continues perpetuating the LIE that the JFK Limo did Not Stop on its' way to Parkland Hospital. He has been consistently telling this LIE for Over 60 yrs now. Why would I believe anything this man says when he continues pitching this Company Lie. Anybody pushing a Company Lie is a Company Man. What else is he lying about? SA Clint Hill has Serious Credibility Issues.
We know that the Limo didn't stop in Dealey Plaza but what proof have you got that it stopped elsewhere and why?
Also relevant is the fact that according to many eyewitnesses the Limo got to Parkland which was at least five miles away, and Kennedy into the Emergency room within 10 minutes, do you think they had time to stop and what do you think they did, have a picnic?
JohnM
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We know that the Limo didn't stop in Dealey Plaza but what proof have you got that it stopped elsewhere and why?
Also relevant is the fact that according to many eyewitnesses the Limo got to Parkland which was at least five miles away, and Kennedy into the Emergency room within 10 minutes, do you think they had time to stop and what do you think they did, have a picnic?
JohnM
Do you believe the JFK Limo stopped before reaching Parkland Hospital or not. Easy question. State your position and I'll respond.
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Do you believe the JFK Limo stopped before reaching Parkland Hospital or not. Easy question. State your position and I'll respond.
Sorry it doesn't work like that, your claim your proof!
JohnM
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Sorry it doesn't work like that, your claim your proof!
JohnM
Here we go again. 1st you're afraid to contact me via my personal email, and Now you run away from stating an opinion. Makes me believe you KNOW that your fellow LN's agree with me. The JFK Limo did stop at some point. You are so afraid of being abandoned by your buddies. Sad. Very Sad. But without the SBT, this is where All of You are at. The "Band" has broken up. Been Shattered.
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Here we go again. 1st you're afraid to contact me via my personal email, and Now you run away from stating an opinion. Makes me believe you KNOW that your fellow LN's agree with me. The JFK Limo did stop at some point. You are so afraid of being abandoned by your buddies. Sad. Very Sad. But without the SBT, this is where All of You are at. The "Band" has broken up. Been Shattered.
You are one bizarre Dude!
You made an unsupported claim, not me, and now when called on it, you start abusing and insulting me? Typical Kook behaviour.
JohnM
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You are one bizarre Dude!
You made an unsupported claim, not me, and now when called on it, you start abusing and insulting me? Typical Kook behaviour.
JohnM
Stop your whining John. Like I said. I do Not enjoy punching down. And you are flat on your back. No question. Knott Labs Laser 360 SCIENCE proved: (1) multiple shooters, and (2) "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE". You and your like are done. SCIENCE has proven You WRONG. Dead Wrong! Now let's see where the other shooter(s) were positioned.
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Stop your whining John. Like I said. I do Not enjoy punching down. And you are flat on your back. No question. Knott Labs Laser 360 SCIENCE proved: (1) multiple shooters, and (2) "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE". You and your like are done. SCIENCE has proven You WRONG. Dead Wrong! Now let's see where the other shooter(s) were positioned.
Yet another diversion and further insults!
You know even though the Limo raced to the five plus miles away Parkland Hospital in mere minutes, I was open to a momentary stop where Greer may have been filled in with the directions to Parkland but your continual avoidance speaks volumes.
JohnM
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Yet another diversion and further insults!
You know even though the Limo raced to the five plus miles away Parkland Hospital in mere minutes, I was open to a momentary stop where Greer may have been filled in with the directions to Parkland but your continual avoidance speaks volumes.
JohnM
Why would Greer need to Stop for "directions" ? : (1) He's following the Lead Car, and (2) JFK Limo has a radio manned by ASAIC Kellerman
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Why would Greer need to Stop for "directions" ? : (1) He's following the Lead Car, and (2) JFK Limo has a radio manned by ASAIC Kellerman
Exactly, thanks for falling for my trap, there was no need for Greer to stop and the fact as I stated previously that the Limo made it to the distant Parkland in way less than 10 minutes, proves that you are embarrassed by your evidence.
JohnM
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Why would Greer need to Stop for "directions" ? : (1) He's following the Lead Car, and (2) JFK Limo has a radio manned by ASAIC Kellerman
I redd a couple of days ago that Curry's radio in the lead car was playing up.
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I redd a couple of days ago that Curry's radio in the lead car was playing up.
That's interesting, where did you read that?
Anyway, this is what Curry said in his WC testimony.
Mr. HUBERT - Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative fashion. I will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait until the end to fill in. We will see how it works out. Briefly, what we want to know is what you know about the whole thing.
Mr. CURRY - Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas, and which is near Stemmons Express-way-it was necessary for us to move to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to have a luncheon.
I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital and they were the President, the Vice President and the Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital for--oh--some hour or so.
Greer's original report.
The President's automobile was almost past this building and I was looking at the overpass that we were about to pass under in case someone was on top of it, when I heard what I thought was the backfire of a motorcycle behind the President's automobile. After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here.
We rushed up to the police escort and I called to the motorcycle police, Hospital. Mr. Kellerman was calling to the lead automobile on the radio to get to the nearest hospital fast. I drove as fast as I could to the hospital and helped to get the President into the emergency room.
Kellerman's original report
I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital.
With SA Lawson riding in the police car they quickly formed the accompanying escort for the motorcade around our limousines and sped us through the streets to the emergency entrance of Parkland Memorial Hospital. Sometime during the ride to the hospital while looking back into the car I noticed SA Hill hanging on to the back of the car, laying across the trunk. When we got to the hospital I called to the agents to get two stretchers.
Lawson's original report.
At the corner of Houston and Elm Streets I verified with Chief Curry that we were about five minutes from the Trade Mart and gave this signal over my portable White House Communications radio. We were just approaching a railroad overpass and I checked to see if a police officer was in position there and that no one was directly over our path. I noticed a police officer but also noticed a few persons on the bridge and made motions to have these persons removed from over our path. As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone. Both the President's car and our Lead Car rapidly accelerated almost simultaneously. I heard a report over the two-way radio that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. I noticed Agent Hill hanging on to the rear of the President's vehicle. A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident. I requested Chief Curry to have the hospital contacted that we were on the way. Our Lead Car assisted the motorcycles in escorting the President's vehicle to Parkland Hospital.
Upon our arrival there at approximately 12:34 p.m., I rushed into the emergency entrance, met persons coming with two stretchers and helped rush them outside. Governor Connally was being removed from the car when the stretchers arrived and he was placed on the first one. Mr. Powers, myself and one or two others placed President Kennedy on a stretcher and we ran pushing the stretcher into the emergency area which hospital personnel directed us to.
Clint Hill's original report.
I jumped onto the left rear step of the Presidential automobile. Mrs. Kennedy shouted, "They've shot his head off;" then turned and raised out of her seat as if she were reaching to her right rear toward the back of the car for something that had blown out. I forced her back into her seat and placed my body above President and Mrs. Kennedy. SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward. I heard ASAIC Kellerman call SA Lawson on the two-way radio and say, "To the nearest hospital, quick." I shouted as loud as I could at the Lead car, "To the hospital, to the hospital."
Sorrels' WC testimony
Mr. STERN - Would shots from the Book Depository Building have been consistent with your hearing of the shots?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes; they would have.
Mr. STERN - What happened next, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS - We proceeded to Parkland Hospital just as fast as we could.
Mr. STERN - Did you go into the hospital?
Mr. SORRELS - No; I did not go into the hospital.
Mrs. Connally's WC testimony.
Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.
I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.
I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."
Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital.
Just before we got to Parkland, we made a right-hand turn, he must have been going very fast, because as he turned the weight of my husband's body almost toppled us both.
Mr. SPECTER How fast do you think he was going?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't know; very rapidly. The people I could see going by were just rushing. We were just rushing by very fast. We arrived at the hospital and sat there what seemed to me like an interminable time, and from what I know was just a few minutes, but the thoughts that went through my mind were how long must I sit here with this dying man in my arms while everybody is swarming over the President whom I felt very sure was dead, and just when I thought I could sit and wait no longer, John just sort of heaved himself up. He did not rise up in the car, he just sort of heaved himself up, and then collapsed down into the seat.
Jacqueline Kennedy's WC testimony
Mr. RANKIN. And did you stop at any time after the shots, or proceed about the same way?
Mrs. KENNEDY. I don't know, because--I don't think we stopped. But there was such confusion. And I was down in the car and everyone was yelling to get to the hospital and you could hear them on the radio, and then suddenly I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off.
Mr. RANKIN. And then from there you proceeded as rapidly as possible to the hospital, is that right?
Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes.
JohnM
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Yet another diversion and further insults!
You know even though the Limo raced to the five plus miles away Parkland Hospital in mere minutes, I was open to a momentary stop where Greer may have been filled in with the directions to Parkland but your continual avoidance speaks volumes.
JohnM
It's probably worth pointing out that the ramp from Elm to Stemmons has a fairly tight curve on it. Automotive technology has come a long way since 1963, but even in a new car, you have to take that turn no more than 25 mph if that. I can't imagine what it would be like trying to wrestle an 8000lb stretch limousine around it, especially when that 8000lb beast is running on 1961 suspension technology and riding on skinny bias-ply tires. By default, SS100x was going to negotiate that turn pretty slowly no matter what else happened
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That's interesting, where did you read that? JohnM
I think it was from Palamara's stuff.
It appears that it was Lawson's portable radio that was playing up.
Plus praps Curry's channel-1 might have been off the air due to sticky button near the Trade Mart.
297) DPD Chief Jesse E. Curry, driver of the lead car in the motorcade [deceased June 1980]:
a) 11/20/63 televised warning to Dallas citizens (see "Four Days In November", 1964);
b) 11/22-11/24/63 televised statements, ABC, CBS, NBC (see also "Rush To Judgment");
c) 4 H 150-202 [not consulted about motorcade route: 4 H 169; see also CD 5, p. 4: learned of the route 11/21/63 via Lawson and Sorrells]; 12 H 25-42; 15 H 124-133 / testimony;
d) 15 H 640 / affidavit;
e) other WC references: too numerous to list (see "Referenced Index Guide to the Warren Commission" by Walt Brown, 1995, pp. 46-47 and 294;
f) 8/69 LBJ Library Oral History (audio tape)---there was no radio contact be-tween the lead car and the limousine and Lawson's portable radio was not working too well at the time;
g) His book "JFK Assassination File" (1969), pages 32, 34---"No hospital atten-dants were at the emergency entrance…The back seat was a gory sight---blood was everywhere…Even amid the confusion the Chief Executive looked dead. Visible respiration was gone; his eyes were dilated and fixed…Agent Hill finally convinced her [Jackie] to let go of the President. Apparently she didn't want anyone to see that the BACK of the President's head was partially blown off." [emphasis added]; "As Dr. Perry took charge he sized up the situation. A small neat wound was in the throat. The back of the head was massively damaged and blood from this wound covered the floor and the aluminum hospital cart. Dr. Perry examined the throat wound and assessed it as the entrance wound…at the time Dr. Perry insisted that the President was shot from the front----entering at the throat and exiting out the back of the head.";
h) early 1970's interview with Fred Newcomb and Perry Adams for "Murder From Within" (pages 32, 42, 157, 164, 183, and 185)---Texas law prohibited the removal of a body from the state without an autopsy; also: it was the Secret Service who changed the orders re: the placement of the motorcycles by JFK's 11 Part 5: Motorcade occupants 4 No. 2 © Copyright 2006 Vincent M. Palamara
THE JFK MEDICAL REFERENCE ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol.
limo [see B.J. Martin, above, as well as 4 H 171 (Curry) and 338 (Lawson); 7 H 579-581; 17 H 605, 624; 18 H 741, 809; 20 H 489; 21 H 571, 768-770; see also 20 H 391 re: cancelled squad car];
i) “CBS News Inquiry” The American Assassins” 1975;
j) “The Fifth Estate-Dallas and After” 1977 CBC (interviewed by P.D.
Scott!);
k) "The Killing of President Kennedy” (1978/1983) [full lenghth version of
“Declassified: The Plot to Kill President Kennedy” (1978/1988)]---Curry said that, from the direction of the blood and the brain matter, one shot had to have come from the front;
l) 4/22/80 issue of "The Continuing Inquiry" newsletter: interview with Gary Mack re: "The Stop-And-Go Motorcade";
m) “Murder In Dealey Plaza” by James Fetzer (2000), pages 11, 18, 25-26, 32, 34, 42-43, 59, 83, 101-103, 117, 155, 161, 169, 172, 220, 416, 418, 419, 361-368, 404
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Exactly, thanks for falling for my trap, there was no need for Greer to stop and the fact as I stated previously that the Limo made it to the distant Parkland in way less than 10 minutes, proves that you are embarrassed by your evidence.
JohnM
Regarding the Limo STOPPING, we have already discussed Jackie being a reason and the possible SS Protocol of stopping in order to "regroup" vs being flushed out into a possible cross fire up ahead. SA Greer and ASAIC Kellerman have side arms. Those would be the only immediate weapons available to protect the POTUS. There might be something along the lines of an AR-15 in the trunk. Getting to this possible weapon inside the trunk would mandate the STOPPING of the JFK Limo.
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Regarding the Limo STOPPING, we have already discussed Jackie being a reason and the possible SS Protocol of stopping in order to "regroup" vs being flushed out into a possible cross fire up ahead. SA Greer and ASAIC Kellerman have side arms. Those would be the only immediate weapons available to protect the POTUS. There might be something along the lines of an AR-15 in the trunk. Getting to this possible weapon inside the trunk would mandate the STOPPING of the JFK Limo.
I see a lot of speculation but no cold hard facts of the Limo actually STOPPING and under the circumstances of not knowing what could happen next, the very thought of slowing down and stopping for enough time to walk around to the trunk to retrieve the rifle then get back in, then once again accelerate to top speed, all the while putting themselves at further risk, to me sounds absurd. I reckon their first priority was to get Kennedy and Connally life saving medical help as quickly as possible and everyone within the cars were not Doctors and they could only assume that even a short stop could mean the difference between life and death.
The follow up SS car had Hickey standing watch with his AR-15 which he kept within the car at a convenient location.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpYCCVQX/jfk-hickey-with-rifle.jpg)
Hickey's original report.
At the end of the last report I reached to the bottom of the car and picked up the AR 15 rifle, cocked and loaded it, and turned to the rear. At this point the cars were passing under the over-pass and as a result we had left the scene of the shooting. I kept the AR 15 rifle ready as we proceeded at a high rate of speed to the hospital.
Agent Clint Hill was riding across the rear and the top of IOOX in a horizontal position. He looked into the rear of IOOX and turned toward 679X and shook his head several times. I received the impression that the President at the least was very seriously injured. A few moments later shift leader Emory Roberts turned to the rest of us in the car and said words to the effect that when we arrive at the hospital some of us would have to give additional protection to the Vice President and take him to a place of safety. He assigned two of the agents in the car to this duty. I was told to have the AR 15 ready for use if needed.
JohnM
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I think it was from Palamara's stuff.
It appears that it was Lawson's portable radio that was playing up.
Plus praps Curry's channel-1 might have been off the air due to sticky button near the Trade Mart.
297) DPD Chief Jesse E. Curry, driver of the lead car in the motorcade [deceased June 1980]:
a) 11/20/63 televised warning to Dallas citizens (see "Four Days In November", 1964);
b) 11/22-11/24/63 televised statements, ABC, CBS, NBC (see also "Rush To Judgment");
c) 4 H 150-202 [not consulted about motorcade route: 4 H 169; see also CD 5, p. 4: learned of the route 11/21/63 via Lawson and Sorrells]; 12 H 25-42; 15 H 124-133 / testimony;
d) 15 H 640 / affidavit;
e) other WC references: too numerous to list (see "Referenced Index Guide to the Warren Commission" by Walt Brown, 1995, pp. 46-47 and 294;
f) 8/69 LBJ Library Oral History (audio tape)---there was no radio contact be-tween the lead car and the limousine and Lawson's portable radio was not working too well at the time;
g) His book "JFK Assassination File" (1969), pages 32, 34---"No hospital atten-dants were at the emergency entrance…The back seat was a gory sight---blood was everywhere…Even amid the confusion the Chief Executive looked dead. Visible respiration was gone; his eyes were dilated and fixed…Agent Hill finally convinced her [Jackie] to let go of the President. Apparently she didn't want anyone to see that the BACK of the President's head was partially blown off." [emphasis added]; "As Dr. Perry took charge he sized up the situation. A small neat wound was in the throat. The back of the head was massively damaged and blood from this wound covered the floor and the aluminum hospital cart. Dr. Perry examined the throat wound and assessed it as the entrance wound…at the time Dr. Perry insisted that the President was shot from the front----entering at the throat and exiting out the back of the head.";
h) early 1970's interview with Fred Newcomb and Perry Adams for "Murder From Within" (pages 32, 42, 157, 164, 183, and 185)---Texas law prohibited the removal of a body from the state without an autopsy; also: it was the Secret Service who changed the orders re: the placement of the motorcycles by JFK's 11 Part 5: Motorcade occupants 4 No. 2 © Copyright 2006 Vincent M. Palamara
THE JFK MEDICAL REFERENCE ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol.
limo [see B.J. Martin, above, as well as 4 H 171 (Curry) and 338 (Lawson); 7 H 579-581; 17 H 605, 624; 18 H 741, 809; 20 H 489; 21 H 571, 768-770; see also 20 H 391 re: cancelled squad car];
i) “CBS News Inquiry” The American Assassins” 1975;
j) “The Fifth Estate-Dallas and After” 1977 CBC (interviewed by P.D.
Scott!);
k) "The Killing of President Kennedy” (1978/1983) [full lenghth version of
“Declassified: The Plot to Kill President Kennedy” (1978/1988)]---Curry said that, from the direction of the blood and the brain matter, one shot had to have come from the front;
l) 4/22/80 issue of "The Continuing Inquiry" newsletter: interview with Gary Mack re: "The Stop-And-Go Motorcade";
m) “Murder In Dealey Plaza” by James Fetzer (2000), pages 11, 18, 25-26, 32, 34, 42-43, 59, 83, 101-103, 117, 155, 161, 169, 172, 220, 416, 418, 419, 361-368, 404
Thanks Marjan, by collating all of the relevant eyewitnesses, I believe that they very quickly ascertained that there was a serious medical emergency and hightailed it to Parkland as quickly as possible. Even if they realized that Kennedy was dead, Connally was very much alive and needed medical assistance asap!
Btw I'm still waiting for Royell to provide proof of a stoppage but in his usual fashion, he's trying to string it out as long as possible just so he can be the centre of attention.
JohnM
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John - Maybe you have forgotten, but we discussed the Limo STOP issue at length previously. The issue was Not whether there was a Limo STOP, the issue was WHERE the JFK Limo Stopped. Whether LN or CT this is where the vast majority of the Forum was. Seriously, you need to take stock of where you are currently at. If You get on top of this NOW, at minimum you can Halt the decline. For starters, STOP polluting your mind with those ghoulish cartoons you have crafted. Use that time and mind space to accumulate Knowledge through research.
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John - Maybe you have forgotten, but we discussed the Limo STOP issue at length previously. The issue was Not whether there was a Limo STOP, the issue was WHERE the JFK Limo Stopped. Whether LN or CT this is where the vast majority of the Forum was. Seriously, you need to take stock of where you are currently at. If You get on top of this NOW, at minimum you can Halt the decline. For starters, STOP polluting your mind with those ghoulish cartoons you have crafted. Use that time and mind space to accumulate Knowledge through research.
No worries Royell, I have researched occupants in the Limo, occupants in the lead car and even Hickey in the SS follow up car and NO one says the Limo stopped, the fact that they arrived at Parkland very soon after, so urgent medical care could be carried out on Connally and Kenney, tells me very specifically that they didn't stop for a picnic. Btw these constant boring insults and embarrassing attempts at niggling with every mind numbing post only proves that the irrefutable truth is getting under your skin and making you go wild. But keep it up because you make me laugh!
This is what Curry said in his WC testimony.
Mr. HUBERT - Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative fashion. I will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait until the end to fill in. We will see how it works out. Briefly, what we want to know is what you know about the whole thing.
Mr. CURRY - Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas, and which is near Stemmons Express-way-it was necessary for us to move to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to have a luncheon.
I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital and they were the President, the Vice President and the Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital for--oh--some hour or so.
Greer's original report.
The President's automobile was almost past this building and I was looking at the overpass that we were about to pass under in case someone was on top of it, when I heard what I thought was the backfire of a motorcycle behind the President's automobile. After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here.
We rushed up to the police escort and I called to the motorcycle police, Hospital. Mr. Kellerman was calling to the lead automobile on the radio to get to the nearest hospital fast. I drove as fast as I could to the hospital and helped to get the President into the emergency room.
Kellerman's original report
I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital.
With SA Lawson riding in the police car they quickly formed the accompanying escort for the motorcade around our limousines and sped us through the streets to the emergency entrance of Parkland Memorial Hospital. Sometime during the ride to the hospital while looking back into the car I noticed SA Hill hanging on to the back of the car, laying across the trunk. When we got to the hospital I called to the agents to get two stretchers.
Lawson's original report.
At the corner of Houston and Elm Streets I verified with Chief Curry that we were about five minutes from the Trade Mart and gave this signal over my portable White House Communications radio. We were just approaching a railroad overpass and I checked to see if a police officer was in position there and that no one was directly over our path. I noticed a police officer but also noticed a few persons on the bridge and made motions to have these persons removed from over our path. As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone. Both the President's car and our Lead Car rapidly accelerated almost simultaneously. I heard a report over the two-way radio that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. I noticed Agent Hill hanging on to the rear of the President's vehicle. A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident. I requested Chief Curry to have the hospital contacted that we were on the way. Our Lead Car assisted the motorcycles in escorting the President's vehicle to Parkland Hospital.
Upon our arrival there at approximately 12:34 p.m., I rushed into the emergency entrance, met persons coming with two stretchers and helped rush them outside. Governor Connally was being removed from the car when the stretchers arrived and he was placed on the first one. Mr. Powers, myself and one or two others placed President Kennedy on a stretcher and we ran pushing the stretcher into the emergency area which hospital personnel directed us to.
Clint Hill's original report.
I jumped onto the left rear step of the Presidential automobile. Mrs. Kennedy shouted, "They've shot his head off;" then turned and raised out of her seat as if she were reaching to her right rear toward the back of the car for something that had blown out. I forced her back into her seat and placed my body above President and Mrs. Kennedy. SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward. I heard ASAIC Kellerman call SA Lawson on the two-way radio and say, "To the nearest hospital, quick." I shouted as loud as I could at the Lead car, "To the hospital, to the hospital."
Sorrels' WC testimony
Mr. STERN - Would shots from the Book Depository Building have been consistent with your hearing of the shots?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes; they would have.
Mr. STERN - What happened next, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS - We proceeded to Parkland Hospital just as fast as we could.
Mr. STERN - Did you go into the hospital?
Mr. SORRELS - No; I did not go into the hospital.
Mrs. Connally's WC testimony.
Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.
I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.
I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."
Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital.
Just before we got to Parkland, we made a right-hand turn, he must have been going very fast, because as he turned the weight of my husband's body almost toppled us both.
Mr. SPECTER How fast do you think he was going?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't know; very rapidly. The people I could see going by were just rushing. We were just rushing by very fast. We arrived at the hospital and sat there what seemed to me like an interminable time, and from what I know was just a few minutes, but the thoughts that went through my mind were how long must I sit here with this dying man in my arms while everybody is swarming over the President whom I felt very sure was dead, and just when I thought I could sit and wait no longer, John just sort of heaved himself up. He did not rise up in the car, he just sort of heaved himself up, and then collapsed down into the seat.
Jacqueline Kennedy's WC testimony
Mr. RANKIN. And did you stop at any time after the shots, or proceed about the same way?
Mrs. KENNEDY. I don't know, because--I don't think we stopped. But there was such confusion. And I was down in the car and everyone was yelling to get to the hospital and you could hear them on the radio, and then suddenly I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off.
Mr. RANKIN. And then from there you proceeded as rapidly as possible to the hospital, is that right?
Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes.
The follow up SS car had Hickey standing watch with his AR-15 which he kept within the car at a convenient location.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpYCCVQX/jfk-hickey-with-rifle.jpg)
Hickey's original report.
At the end of the last report I reached to the bottom of the car and picked up the AR 15 rifle, cocked and loaded it, and turned to the rear. At this point the cars were passing under the over-pass and as a result we had left the scene of the shooting. I kept the AR 15 rifle ready as we proceeded at a high rate of speed to the hospital.
Agent Clint Hill was riding across the rear and the top of IOOX in a horizontal position. He looked into the rear of IOOX and turned toward 679X and shook his head several times. I received the impression that the President at the least was very seriously injured. A few moments later shift leader Emory Roberts turned to the rest of us in the car and said words to the effect that when we arrive at the hospital some of us would have to give additional protection to the Vice President and take him to a place of safety. He assigned two of the agents in the car to this duty. I was told to have the AR 15 ready for use if needed.
JohnM
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John - If you prefer to ignore the obvious, OK by me. Just trying to help you out.
Why would you expect anybody plugged into law enforcement/politics to step outta line?
For openers, when was the last time you looked at any images from that Parkland Hospital Emergency area? We can see the JFK Limo, the Queen Mary car stopped somewhat cattywampus behind it, and we even see the LBJ Convertible. So....... where is the Lead Car?? The LEAD Car should have been the very 1st vehicle into that Emergency Area if it did LEAD the JFK Limo into that area. (The WRONG Area). You claim that nobody stopped, they all go hell bent for Parkland Hospital, yet somehow the Lead Car goes POOF?? Where's the Lead Car?
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John - If you prefer to ignore the obvious, OK by me. Just trying to help you out.
Why would you expect anybody plugged into law enforcement/politics to step outta line?
For openers, when was the last time you looked at any images from that Parkland Hospital Emergency area? We can see the JFK Limo, the Queen Mary car stopped somewhat cattywampus behind it, and we even see the LBJ Convertible. So....... where is the Lead Car?? The LEAD Car should have been the very 1st vehicle into that Emergency Area if it did LEAD the JFK Limo into that area. (The WRONG Area). You claim that nobody stopped, they all go hell bent for Parkland Hospital, yet somehow the Lead Car goes POOF?? Where's the Lead Car?
You claim that nobody stopped, they all go hell bent for Parkland Hospital, yet somehow the Lead Car goes POOF?? Where's the Lead Car?
What is the same make and model of car that appears out in front in Altgens 7, can also be seen out in front at Parkland. Oops!
I can also make out in both photos what appears to be a radio antenna over the right side door! Double Ooooops!
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0QrCXQc/Altgen-7-a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKJJ17Zt/jfk-limo-at-parkland-a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCXWNPC7/another-one-bites-the-dust-Queen-Royell.jpg)
Btw watch out Paul Ernst, there's a new sheriff in Town and I'm comin for ya! Hahahahahahahahaha!
JohnM
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What is the same make and model of car that appears out in front in Altgens 7, can also be seen out in front at Parkland. Oops!
I can also make out in both photos what appears to be a radio antenna over the right side door! Double Ooooops!
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0QrCXQc/Altgen-7-a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKJJ17Zt/jfk-limo-at-parkland-a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCXWNPC7/another-one-bites-the-dust-Queen-Royell.jpg)
Btw watch out Paul Ernst, there's a new sheriff in Town and I'm comin for ya! Hahahahahahahahaha!
JohnM
Thanks for following the bread crumbs. You failed to see who exited that car. As you can see, the JFK Limo has the top assembled/completely on. That photo was taken Well AFTER the JFK Limo arrived at Parkland Hospital. Also, the Exceptionally Long antenna on the Lead Car is positioned on the (L) Front Fender.
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Thanks for following the bread crumbs. You failed to see who exited that car. As you can see, the JFK Limo has the top assembled/completely on. That photo was taken Well AFTER the JFK Limo arrived at Parkland Hospital. Also, the Exceptionally Long antenna on the Lead Car is positioned on the (L) Front Fender.
Thanks for following the bread crumbs.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/900/158/fd6.gif)
Picking up the pieces after another one of your Earth Shattering Blunders is a pleasure.
You failed to see who exited that car.
Curry tells us that he got out of the car which you can see the cars location in the photo I posted and organised stretchers for President Kennedy and Governor Connally and watched them being stretchered into the hospital.
Representative FORD - Did you get this order over the PA system before the second and third shots?
Mr. CURRY - I don't believe so, I am not sure. I am not positive. Because they were in pretty rapid succession. But after I noticed some commotion in the President's car and a motorcycle officer ran up aside of me and I asked him what had happened and he said shots had been fired, and I said, "Has the President been hit or has the President's party been hit? And he said, "I am sure they have."
I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an emergency, and this is approximately, I would say, perhaps a couple of miles or so to Parkland Hospital from this, and we went to Parkland and I notified them to have them to be standing by for an emergency, and we went out there under siren escort and went into the emergency entrance.
As I recall, I got out of the car and rushed to the emergency entrance and told them to bring the stretchers out, and they loaded the President, President Kennedy and Governor Connally onto stretchers and took them into the hospital.
Mrs. Kennedy, I went into the hospital, and I know she was outside the door of where they were working with the President, and someone suggested to her that she sit down and she was very calm, and she said, "I am all right. Some of your people need to sit down more than I do."
But everyone was very concerned. I remained around the hospital. I was contacted by some of the special sergeants who asked me to stand by in my car and get another car and take the President, then Vice President Johnson to Love Field.
That photo was taken Well AFTER the JFK Limo arrived at Parkland Hospital.
Yes the large gathered crowd indicates the photo was taken after they arrived, so what! That doesn't change the fact that your initial Bogus declaration that "yet somehow the Lead Car goes POOF?? Where's the Lead Car?" was just the latest piece of Royell misinformation.
JohnM
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You got the antenna location Wrong. You now know that. Once upon a time, you woulda completed your Lead Car research. This is why you did the "make n model" BS tap dance vs a Lead Car declaration. You knew you had half-arsed the job, and you were fine with that. This is where you're at now. This is the same kinda work your JFK Assassination buddies have done and continue doing. This is also why 60 yrs later there remain so many unanswered questions. Half arsed work just don't feed the bulldog.
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You got the antenna location Wrong. You now know that. Once upon a time, you woulda completed your Lead Car research. This is why you did the "make n model" BS tap dance vs a Lead Car declaration. You knew you had half-arsed the job, and you were fine with that. This is where you're at now. This is the same kinda work your JFK Assassination buddies have done and continue doing. This is also why 60 yrs later there remain so many unanswered questions. Half arsed work just don't feed the bulldog.
First you make a complete Fool of yourself with the "invisible" lead car and you don't even have courage to admit your failure, what a Yellow Bellied Coward you are.
Anyway, I'm not talking about a permanent radio antenna but a temporary gutter type CB antenna.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRxmYtxt/Altgen-7-crop.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpnnzDYy/jfk-limo-at-parkland-acrop.jpg)
Back in the day I had a similar CB gutter mount for my portable car CB radio. While this antenna itself is not identical to Curry's, the temporary gutter mount is universal on older style cars and quite common.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RCk0ZN76/gutter-mount.png)
This is also why 60 yrs later there remain so many unanswered questions. Half arsed work just don't feed the bulldog.
Says the boy who continually makes up stuff like "yet somehow the Lead Car goes POOF?? Where's the Lead Car?" and "the Zapruder film is BOGUS except when it's not" and even if you were right about my placement of the CB antenna, which you weren't, a simple antenna misplacement pales into insignificance next to your "History Altering" GIANT Whoppers, which can actually affect the novice reader's understanding of the Key Players Motivations and thus turning these innocent bystanders into Evil Monsters. Shame on you!
And then you have the hide to criticize my proven exemplary research skills, I fart in your general direction you silly little Twat.
JohnM
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As I pointed out: (1) YOU FAILED to see who exited that vehicle, (I went that extra mile long ago), and, (2) You got the antenna Wrong. Even you are No longer confident in your own "work" product. This is why you went the "make and model" route vs flat-out ID'ing this vehicle as the Lead Car. You absolutely know where you are currently at. Either you just no longer have the energy to persistently do your research Thoroughly, and/or you just plain don't have the desire. Either way, your current "work" product is a shadow of the lengths you have consistently gone to when previously doing JFK Assassination research. Stop damaging a reputation that you spent years establishing, and kindly pass the torch. Your day is done.
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As I pointed out: (1) YOU FAILED to see who exited that vehicle, (I went that extra mile long ago), and, (2) You got the antenna Wrong. Even you are No longer confident in your own "work" product. This is why you went the "make and model" route vs flat-out ID'ing this vehicle as the Lead Car. You absolutely know where you are currently at. Either you just no longer have the energy to persistently do your research Thoroughly, and/or you just plain don't have the desire. Either way, your current "work" product is a shadow of the lengths you have consistently gone to when previously doing JFK Assassination research. Stop damaging a reputation that you spent years establishing, and kindly pass the torch. Your day is done.
You got the antenna Wrong.
Oh Really?
Both Kellerman and Lawson indicate that in addition to the regular Police radio that Lawson was in possession of a Portable radio and as I told you in my previous post from my past experience with portable radios, the usage of an external antenna is required for a reliable signal.
Mr. SPECTER. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a portable radio.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you have a communications system with the Secret Service agents for this pilot car?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; because the next car in the motorcade is what we call a lead car and it is actually a rolling command car. We try to have a command officer from every jurisdiction of police with a radio net of their own in that vehicle. Sometimes if you are in an area where there are State police and police and sheriff's and quite a few jurisdictions, where it is a long motorcade i and you are going through various counties you are not able to have a command officer of every jurisdiction in that.
But in Dallas the lead car, the car that I was in directly ahead of the President was a police car, and of course it had a radio that was in contact with the pilot car and any other radio on the police net. In addition to that, I had a portable radio on the Secret Service White House network.
This is why you went the "make and model" route vs flat-out ID'ing this vehicle as the Lead Car.
In the Parkland photo which you obviously didn't know existed and has you scrambling to save face, as your hopes and dreams are crushed under my foot, but I digress, we see out the very front two Police Bikes, then close behind we have the same make and model and colour of the Lead car as seen in Altgens 7 which has just haphazardly stopped and close behind is the Secret Service back up security car and then just behind parked in an ambulance bay is the Presidential Limo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTQLSsz2/jfk-limo-at-parkland.jpg)
You absolutely know where you are currently at.
I sure do, I'm currently kicking your ass.
Either you just no longer have the energy to persistently do your research Thoroughly, and/or you just plain don't have the desire.
What a bizarre comment coming from a failed researcher who is the epitome of 60 years of CT ill conceived assumptions and deception.
Either way, your current "work" product is a shadow of the lengths you have consistently gone to when previously doing JFK Assassination research.
So it seems that you believe that at one time my work was even superior to my current impeccable output? Thanks!
Stop damaging a reputation that you spent years establishing, and kindly pass the torch.
Nah, not going to happen but thanks again for reinforcing that you believe that I have what appears to be a decent reputation.
Your day is done.
No, my day has just begun.
We've only just begun to live
White lace and promises
A kiss for luck and we're on our way
(We've only begun)
JohnM
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You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. When this picture was taken, the Queen Mary had been moved from its' original stopping point. Just look at the motorcycles. They're even facing the WRONG DIRECTION. Cars and motorcycles have been moved in addition to others arriving well AFTER the JFK Limo did. You're in way over your head once again. Stick to your cartoons.
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(2) You got the antenna Wrong.
After the Altgen's 7 and the Parkland photos how can you still make that assertion? Anyway here's yet another photo of Curry's Lead Car, of when Lyndon B Johnson was leaving Parkland(from the original description) and showing the antenna exactly where I said it was!
“Let’s go,” Johnson says.
They rush out in a football formation, Johnson the quarterback surrounded by a wedge of agents, those at the rear walking backward, hands on their guns. A second formation comprising Mrs. Johnson and two congressmen, Jack Brooks and Homer Thornberry, are close behind. The bewildered crowd at the emergency entrance scarcely has time to react before Johnson dives into the rear seat of Chief Curry’s car. Youngblood crowds in behind him, as Thornberry slides in front. Mrs. Johnson and Congressman Brooks and a bevy of agents jump into the second car. As the cars begin to pull away, Congressman Albert Thomas runs up, calling out, “Wait for me!” Youngblood, not eager to present a sitting target right in front of the hospital, tells Curry to drive on, but Johnson overrules him. “Stop and let him get in.”
Reclaiming History Vincent Bugliosi
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJdysKy3/parrkland-Lyndon-Johnson.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fsz3rcZb/Royell-is-not-only-beaten-but-smashed.gif)
Mr. CURRY...--snip--...But everyone was very concerned. I remained around the hospital. I was contacted by some of the special sergeants who asked me to stand by in my car and get another car and take the President, then Vice President Johnson to Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN - You have told us about that, haven't you?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I have told you about that.
Mr. RANKIN - And you told us you attended the swearing in of President Johnson?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I did.
Here's Lyndon B Johnson leaving Parkland.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxr3w1P0/Lyndon-B-Johnson-leaving-Parkland.png)
And here's Curry like he said, after driving to Johnson's swearing in ceremony.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJNWttBn/Swearing-in-ceremony-aboard-Air-Force-One-LBJ-as-President-curry.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfKnmrk9/I-m-King-of-the-World.gif)
"Royell Your Day, not mine, is Well and Truly Done!. Bye now!"
Btw next time you try and humiliate me and my belittle my research skills, First of all do a little research yourself before you further embarrass yourself, Secondly bring your "A" game because so far what's on display is just pathetic and Thirdly don't underestimate the King, baby!
JohnM
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Stick to your cartoons.
Ok, but remember when you said I got the Antenna wrong, here let me remind you with these little "cartoons".
(2) You got the antenna Wrong.
OOP's
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJdysKy3/parrkland-Lyndon-Johnson.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fsz3rcZb/Royell-is-not-only-beaten-but-smashed.gif)
JohnM
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You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. When this picture was taken, the Queen Mary had been moved from its' original stopping point. Just look at the motorcycles. They're even facing the WRONG DIRECTION. Cars and motorcycles have been moved in addition to others arriving well AFTER the JFK Limo did. You're in way over your head once again. Stick to your cartoons.
My Goodness, how desperate are you to save face??
While looking for the photo of the "Lead Car" that has turned your entire World upside down, I viewed and analysed quite a few photos of JFK's Limo and all the surrounding vehicles at Parkland and therefore I am well aware that they moved the Queen Mary away from the rear of the Limo and a few yards forward, what I said was quite correct and was applicable to the earlier position of the Queen Mary, "then just behind parked in an ambulance bay is the Presidential Limo." What point do you think you were trying to make, and do you think the fact that other vehicles followed and arrived after the Limo is even worth mentioning?
Btw how does that change your monumental STUFF UP with the Lead car and the antenna where I said it was?
The Queen Mary blocking JFK's Limo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjpQ40GC/JFK-limo-parkland-queen-Mary.jpg)
The antenna which is not wrong!
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJdysKy3/parrkland-Lyndon-Johnson.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fsz3rcZb/Royell-is-not-only-beaten-but-smashed.gif)
JohnM
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Anyway, let's get back on track.
Now that I've destroyed Royell's belief that Curry's lead car just went "poof" and disappeared by utilizing Curry's, Sorrels' and Lawson's under oath testimonies where they all describe assisting in some way with the removal of Kennedy and Connally from JFK's Limo and a photo to top it off, of the Lead car at Parkland. And I also smashed Royell's repeated assertion that their was no antenna over the right door with a range of corroborating photographs, but enough of that, and let's tackle yet another of his latest conspiracies, "After JFK's Limo left Dealey Plaza it stopped so an AR-15 could be retrieved from the trunk."
First of all let's see what the passengers of the Lead Car, JFK's Limo, Hickey in the Queen Mary had to say?
Curry who was in the Lead Car, WC testimony.
Mr. HUBERT - Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative fashion. I will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait until the end to fill in. We will see how it works out. Briefly, what we want to know is what you know about the whole thing.
Mr. CURRY - Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas, and which is near Stemmons Express-way-it was necessary for us to move to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to have a luncheon.
I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital and they were the President, the Vice President and the Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital for--oh--some hour or so.
Lawson who was in the Lead Car, original report.
At the corner of Houston and Elm Streets I verified with Chief Curry that we were about five minutes from the Trade Mart and gave this signal over my portable White House Communications radio. We were just approaching a railroad overpass and I checked to see if a police officer was in position there and that no one was directly over our path. I noticed a police officer but also noticed a few persons on the bridge and made motions to have these persons removed from over our path. As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone. Both the President's car and our Lead Car rapidly accelerated almost simultaneously. I heard a report over the two-way radio that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. I noticed Agent Hill hanging on to the rear of the President's vehicle. A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident. I requested Chief Curry to have the hospital contacted that we were on the way. Our Lead Car assisted the motorcycles in escorting the President's vehicle to Parkland Hospital.
Upon our arrival there at approximately 12:34 p.m., I rushed into the emergency entrance, met persons coming with two stretchers and helped rush them outside. Governor Connally was being removed from the car when the stretchers arrived and he was placed on the first one. Mr. Powers, myself and one or two others placed President Kennedy on a stretcher and we ran pushing the stretcher into the emergency area which hospital personnel directed us to.
Sorrels' who was in the Lead Car, WC testimony.
Mr. STERN - Would shots from the Book Depository Building have been consistent with your hearing of the shots?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes; they would have.
Mr. STERN - What happened next, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS - We proceeded to Parkland Hospital just as fast as we could.
Mr. STERN - Did you go into the hospital?
Mr. SORRELS - No; I did not go into the hospital.
Greer who drove JFK's Limo, original report.
The President's automobile was almost past this building and I was looking at the overpass that we were about to pass under in case someone was on top of it, when I heard what I thought was the backfire of a motorcycle behind the President's automobile. After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here.
We rushed up to the police escort and I called to the motorcycle police, Hospital. Mr. Kellerman was calling to the lead automobile on the radio to get to the nearest hospital fast. I drove as fast as I could to the hospital and helped to get the President into the emergency room.
Kellerman who was next to Greer in JFK's Limo original report
I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital.
With SA Lawson riding in the police car they quickly formed the accompanying escort for the motorcade around our limousines and sped us through the streets to the emergency entrance of Parkland Memorial Hospital. Sometime during the ride to the hospital while looking back into the car I noticed SA Hill hanging on to the back of the car, laying across the trunk. When we got to the hospital I called to the agents to get two stretchers.
Clint Hill who got off the Queen Mary and leapt onto JFK's Limo, original report.
I jumped onto the left rear step of the Presidential automobile. Mrs. Kennedy shouted, "They've shot his head off;" then turned and raised out of her seat as if she were reaching to her right rear toward the back of the car for something that had blown out. I forced her back into her seat and placed my body above President and Mrs. Kennedy. SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward. I heard ASAIC Kellerman call SA Lawson on the two-way radio and say, "To the nearest hospital, quick." I shouted as loud as I could at the Lead car, "To the hospital, to the hospital."
Mrs. Connally who was immediately behind Greer in JFK's Limo, WC testimony.
Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.
I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.
I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."
Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital.
Just before we got to Parkland, we made a right-hand turn, he must have been going very fast, because as he turned the weight of my husband's body almost toppled us both.
Mr. SPECTER How fast do you think he was going?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't know; very rapidly. The people I could see going by were just rushing. We were just rushing by very fast. We arrived at the hospital and sat there what seemed to me like an interminable time, and from what I know was just a few minutes, but the thoughts that went through my mind were how long must I sit here with this dying man in my arms while everybody is swarming over the President whom I felt very sure was dead, and just when I thought I could sit and wait no longer, John just sort of heaved himself up. He did not rise up in the car, he just sort of heaved himself up, and then collapsed down into the seat.
Jacqueline Kennedy who was beside her husband in the rear seat in JFK's Limo WC testimony
Mr. RANKIN. And did you stop at any time after the shots, or proceed about the same way?
Mrs. KENNEDY. I don't know, because--I don't think we stopped. But there was such confusion. And I was down in the car and everyone was yelling to get to the hospital and you could hear them on the radio, and then suddenly I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off.
Mr. RANKIN. And then from there you proceeded as rapidly as possible to the hospital, is that right?
Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes.
Hickey in the follow up Queen Mary had his AR-15 ready close at hand and wasn't afraid to use it!
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpYCCVQX/jfk-hickey-with-rifle.jpg)
At the end of the last report I reached to the bottom of the car and picked up the AR 15 rifle, cocked and loaded it, and turned to the rear. At this point the cars were passing under the over-pass and as a result we had left the scene of the shooting. I kept the AR 15 rifle ready as we proceeded at a high rate of speed to the hospital.
Agent Clint Hill was riding across the rear and the top of IOOX in a horizontal position. He looked into the rear of IOOX and turned toward 679X and shook his head several times. I received the impression that the President at the least was very seriously injured. A few moments later shift leader Emory Roberts turned to the rest of us in the car and said words to the effect that when we arrive at the hospital some of us would have to give additional protection to the Vice President and take him to a place of safety. He assigned two of the agents in the car to this duty. I was told to have the AR 15 ready for use if needed.
Not one of them describe a STOP of any kind and why would they STOP especially since there was a medical emergency in which shot men needed URGENT medical attention right NOW! Please note, I normally don't capitalize words randomly but Royell seems to get off on it!
How about we examine the time it took to arrive at Parkland which according to Google was a little under four miles and let's see if they had enough time to STOP and have a spot of tea?
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3gTrTnn/Dealey-Plaza-to-Parkland.jpg)
Sorrels said they got to Parkland as fast as they could which probably means they didn't stop and then Sorrels went back to Dealey Plaza and said the round trip was about twenty minutes.
Mr. STERN - What happened next, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS - We proceeded to Parkland Hospital just as fast as we could.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. STERN - Just a minute.
How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't there very long. And we came back as fast as we could.
Lawson says they arrived at Parkland about 4 minutes later.
Upon our arrival there at approximately 12:34 p.m., I rushed into the emergency entrance, met persons coming with two stretchers and helped rush them outside. Governor Connally was being removed from the car when the stretchers arrived and he was placed on the first one.
Curry says to take them to Parkland "immediatley" which probably means not stopping and later in his testimony he says a little after 12:30
I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an emergency
Mr. HUBERT - Well, perhaps you can arrive at it this way; you know the time you arrived there?
Mr. CURRY - It seemed we were there about 30 minutes at the hospital'-30 minutes or so, and we probably got there a little after 12:30, so that would have been around a little after I :15, I believe.
Clint Hill says they got there about 4 minutes after the shooting.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. HILL. In time or--
Mr. SPECTER. Time and distance.
Mr. HILL. Distance, I have no idea.
Mr. SPECTER. How about time?
Mr. HILL. I would say roughly 4 minutes.
Greer just had instructions to go FAST and broadly estimated 6 or 8 minutes or in the vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes.
Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, "Get out of here fast." He got the radio and called to the lead car, "Get us to a hospital fast, nearest hospital fast."
Mr. SPECTER. From the time it took from the point of the shooting until you arrived at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GREER. I didn't check anything but I thought that probably it would probably be 6 or 8 minutes, I am not too sure, somewhere in the vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes. I would have to guess at that.
Greer also says he had no idea where Parkland and needed the Lead Car to take them there which is more support that Curry and crew in the Lead Car were there and didn't go "Poof"!
Mr. SPECTER. Were you led to the hospital?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was led to the hospital by the police car who was preceding me.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any independent knowledge of the route from where you were?
Mr. GREER. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. From the point of assassination to the hospital?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.
Kellerman said after Kennedy and Connally were in emergency the time was either 12:38 or 12:41.
I got the Washington operator and I said, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Mr. Behn."
Mr. Behn was in the office at the time, and I said--his name is Gerald Behn--and I said, "Gerry, we have had an incident here in Dallas. The President, the Governor have been shot, We are in the emergency room of the Parkland Memorial Hospital." I said, "Mark down the time." Of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about 3 minutes. I said it is 12:38, which would be 1:38 Dallas time. I am sorry--Washington time.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the time you were talking to Mr. Behn?
Mr. KELLERMAN. To Mr. Behn; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And your version is that it is 12:38 Dallas time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. 12:38. He said it was 12:41; he told me the next day.
How about the Doctors?
Dr McClelland said he got to Emergency about 12:40
Mr. SPECTER - And what action, if any, did you take following that notification?
Dr. McCLELLAND - Immediately upon hearing that, I accompanied the Resident, Dr. Crenshaw, who brought this news to me, to the emergency room, and down to the trauma room 1 where President Kennedy had been taken immediately upon arrival.
Mr. SPECTER - And approximately what time did you arrive in Emergency Room 1?
Dr. McCLELLAND - This is a mere approximation, but I would approximate or estimate, rather, about 12:40.
Dr Carrico said that shortly after 12:30 he heard that the President had been shot and was on his way and 2 minutes or less later the President arrived.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you notified that there was an emergency case on the way to the hospital at approximately 12:30?
Dr. CARRICO - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - In which President Kennedy was involved?
Dr. CARRICO - At that time I was in the emergency room seeing these patients and the call was received that the President had been shot and was on his way to the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best recollection as to what time it was when you received that call?
Dr. CARRICO - This was probably shortly after 12:30.
Mr. SPECTER - And how long after that call was received did the President's party actually arrive at Parkland?
Dr. CARRICO - An estimation would be 2 minutes or less.
Dr Baxter got to Emergency about 12:40
Mr. Specter - And will you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called to render such assistance?
Dr. Baxter - I was conducting the student health service in the hours of 12 to 1 and was contacted there by the supervisor of the emergency room, who told me that the President was on the way to the emergency room, having been shot.
I went on a dead run to the emergency room as fast as I could and it took me about 3 or 4 minutes to get there.
Mr. Specter - Approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room?
Dr. Baxter - I think it was 12:40--thereabouts.
Dr Jenkins said he arrived at Emergency about 12:30-12:35 to 12:40.
Mr. SPECTER - At about what time did you arrive at the emergency room
Dr. JENKINS - Oh, this was around 12:30-12:35 to 12:40. I shouldn't be indefinite about this--in our own specialty practice, we watch the clock closely and there are many things we have to keep up with, but I didn't get that time exactly, I'll admit.
CONCLUSION
No one says they STOPPED in fact most indicated the exact opposite, that speed was of the essence. Across the board, the times seem pretty consistent and under the circumstances I don't think they would stop, or had enough time to stop. Royell's suggestion was that Kennedy's Limo stopped to retrieve weapons from the trunk, even though Royell claims they were already armed with handguns, to me that doesn't pass the sniff test.
So while we eagerly await Royell's proof we are stuck with logic and common sense!
JohnM
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Yeah Clint Hill, thanks for reminding me, here he's demonstrating on what he saw because your self serving misinterpretation of his words has gone on for far too long.
And talk about even more misrepresentation, I see way more than a few eyewitnesses and all of the eyewitnesses are pointing to where they saw a wound and the Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses who from their perspective are pointing to where they saw the obvious dangling bone flap and the direction of the majority of exploding matter.
And here's some of your eyewitnesses who are clearly not demonstrating the exact location of the neat blow out hole as seen in McClelland's drawing. Oops!
and by the way how do you explain McClelland under oath declaring that while standing, he looked down into Kennedys wound? Double Oops!
Another pathetic Griffith tactic, first of all claim that a Griffith critic somehow is unaware of some obscure self indulgent recent revelation of which in this case are few and far between and secondly I never claimed that all the photos were in stereo pairs but the stereoscopic we have prove beyond all doubt that the back of head was intact and the top of head stereoscopic pair prove beyond all doubt the extent of the injury.
You know David Healey a supposed film alterationist expert and iirc was a consultant for a Fetzer Zapruder Fakery book/video. With the aid of modern computers and photoshop which by the way is light years ahead of the primitive techniques used at the time, he attempted a basic foreground cut out with a reinsertion Matte and this single frame looks like crap. A moving film is infinitely more difficult, then the compounding motion blur needs to be addressed which by the way is perfectly realized in the current Zapruder Film. You are so far out of your depth you need children floaties to keep your head above water.
Where you talk about the "impossible" movement of Brehm's son? A movement which I stabilized and is completely normal and furthermore at a point in the film where nothing happens? Give me a break!
So there you have it Ladies and Gentlemen, Girls and Boys, Griffith has tried to say that the key to this assassination was a literal Truckload of Fakery which by and large would be basically impossible even today but he wants us to believe that some "alien" technology back in the dark ages was behind it all. Wow just WOW!
JohnM
"Wow just WOW" is right. Let's start with your deceptive GIF of Brehm's son's movements. Did you think I wouldn't notice that in your GIF the son takes at least 1.7 seconds to get beside his father? This is raw deception. How long does the son take to do that movement in the film itself? Huh? 10 frames or 0.56 seconds, Z277-287, i.e., just barely over half a second. Your GIF falsely shows the movement taking over three times longer, but that's what you have to do to make the movement seem natural and plausible.
I notice you declined to address the other indications of alteration that I document in my article, such as Malcolm Summers' super-human whipping of his left foreleg. Let's see you do another phony, deceptive GIF to try to show that that movement is remotely physically possible.
Or how about the clear, obvious conflict between the Zapruder film and the Nix film on how far Jackie goes on the trunk of the limo? It's not even close.
Or how about the articles that I link in my article? I notice you didn't even mention any of them.
So you're going to go with what Hill said decades after the fact and ignore all of his initial statements on the location of the large head wound, hey? His initial descriptions are very specific and bear no resemblance to his decades-later revision.
I further note that you simply ignored all the descriptions of a large back-of-head wound that I quoted. Do tell us how the mortician at Bethesda who helped reassemble JFK's skull and the two Parkland nurses who washed JFK's head and body and packed his head wound with gauze all said they saw a large back-of-head wound. How in the world could those nurses have missed the gigantic, shredded, and gaping head wound above the right ear seen in the autopsy photos? How could the mortician have missed it? Tell us how Aubrey Rike, who held JFK's head in his hands as he helped place the body in the casket, could have "mistakenly" felt a large jagged wound in the back of the head? To believe your theory, we'd have to believe that Rike could not tell that JFK's head was turned 45 degrees to the right while he held the head in his hands!
I also note that you declined to comment on Dr. Ebersole's revelation to the HSCA that one of the large late-arriving skull fragments was occipital bone.
What makes this disclosure so compelling is that Dr. Boswell revealed to the ARRB that part of the EOP entry wound was contained in a late-arriving skull fragment. (Boswell said the same thing to the HSCA FPP, but they ignored it.)
This, of course, would mean that that skull fragment was occipital bone, since the wound was slightly above the EOP, which would it put it in the middle of the right half of the occiput--gee, and which would agree with the dozens of accounts of a large right-rear head wound (which, in turn, would indicate that a bullet entered near the EOP, and then another bullet, fired from the front, blew out a large part of the right side of the occiput).
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John - All the pics you are posting are WELL AFTER the JFK Limo arrived at Parkland Hospital. This is why the top is completely on the JFK Limo. This is why the Queen Mary has moved from its' original stopping point. The JFK Limo needed to be moved out from where it pulled in, in order to provide space for the Hearse/Ambulance and loading of the coffin/body. Vehicles and motorcycles have moved from their original position. I've seen all of these pics long ago. I've also viewed the footage of the Lead Car pulling out and heading for Love Field, so don't post that stuff. As usual, your well behind the curve.
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"Wow just WOW" is right. Let's start with your deceptive GIF of Brehm's son's movements. Did you think I wouldn't notice that in your GIF the son takes at least 1.7 seconds to get beside his father? This is raw deception. How long does the son take to do that movement in the film itself? Huh? 10 frames or 0.56 seconds, Z277-287, i.e., just barely over half a second. Your GIF falsely shows the movement taking over three times longer, but that's what you have to do to make the movement seem natural and plausible.
First of all, your Maths is wrong, Zapruder frames from Z277 to Z287 is 11 frames! Oops! We're not off to a good start, are we.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gpnzh2Bd/Zapruder-Brehm-z277-z287.jpg)
Secondly my earlier GIF starts at Z176 and ends at Z296 and since I emphasized that I was focusing on the natural movement of his son, the animation obviously will run slightly slower than the original, and by the way in your text in the PDF that you linked to, you state that Brehm's son started from a standing position, how did you come to that conclusion because Frame Z276 shows Brehm's son already in motion stepping out from behind his dad.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDY6b7Hs/Z276-crop.jpg)
Z276
Anyway, so you can't nit pick over insignificant details here's your "11" Zapruder frames from Z177 to Z187 in real time and each cycle is 0.6 seconds which is virtually identical to 11/18.3 and we see nothing even closely resembling superhuman, just normal expected movement! Why do you think that at a point in the Zapruder film where nothing happens, they would alter Brehm's son, do you think he was one of the assassin's with a killer water pistol?
(https://i.postimg.cc/W32ngH6y/Brehm-Zapruder.gif)
JohnM
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John - All the pics you are posting are WELL AFTER the JFK Limo arrived at Parkland Hospital. This is why the top is completely on the JFK Limo. This is why the Queen Mary has moved from its' original stopping point. The JFK Limo needed to be moved out from where it pulled in, in order to provide space for the Hearse/Ambulance and loading of the coffin/body. Vehicles and motorcycles have moved from their original position. I've seen all of these pics long ago. I've also viewed the footage of the Lead Car pulling out and heading for Love Field, so don't post that stuff. As usual, your well behind the curve.
You were wrong about the antenna, so what can we trust of what you say?
Anyway, you said that the "Lead car" wasn't there but it was there because we can see it, now you are shifting the goal posts and you seem to be implying that Curry, Lawson, crew and the Lead Car were off somewhere else and arrived later, Why?
You do realize that Greer didn't know the way and says he followed the police car, and that Curry and Lawson contributed in getting Kennedy and Connally into the hospital, a lie that could be easily independently exposed.
Greer was led by Curry.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you led to the hospital?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was led to the hospital by the police car who was preceding me.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any independent knowledge of the route from where you were?
Mr. GREER. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. From the point of assassination to the hospital?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.
Curry under oath confirms he helped.
I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an emergency, and this is approximately, I would say, perhaps a couple of miles or so to Parkland Hospital from this, and we went to Parkland and I notified them to have them to be standing by for an emergency, and we went out there under siren escort and went into the emergency entrance.
As I recall, I got out of the car and rushed to the emergency entrance and told them to bring the stretchers out, and they loaded the President, President Kennedy and Governor Connally onto stretchers and took them into the hospital.
As did Lawson.
When we arrived at the hospital, as our car pulled up and was still moving, I jumped out and a couple of the motorcycle policemen that had arrived there ahead of us, I asked them to keep any crowd back, any press people back, etc., as I went running in the building.
I was looking for the stretchers that might be coming our way, and didn't notice any at first until I looked quite a ways down the corridor and saw two stretchers being pushed my way, and I ran down, turned around, put one hand on each one and then as they pushed and I pulled, we ran outside.
The stretchers had to be placed in tandem because of the ambulance area and Governor Connally being ahead of President Kennedy was placed on the first one and taken immediately away. President Kennedy was placed on the second one by myself and some other individuals, and we went into the emergency room area and were shown into a particular emergency room.
Btw what inspired you to declare that "they all go hell bent for Parkland Hospital, yet somehow the Lead Car goes POOF?? Where's the Lead Car?" and what were you trying to prove?
JohnM
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Thanks, Honest John, for challenging the CTs' eloquent and heartfelt (if lamebrain) sophistry. Like the Mormon founders, Griffith has placed reams of his mythological bull-dung between two covers and called it a book.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/d6/fe/AP0E1cqu_o.gif)
There's Brehm clapping his meat-hooks totally naturally and the Artful Dodger walking like any other kid. Except ... maybe he just picked his dad's back pocket?
Hi Jerry, thanks for the Honest John comment but I think that most, if not ALL LNer's are Honest, it is what it is.
I never set out to deceive with my images because everything is easily accessible, I just go through the process and what comes out I post. For instance today I took the 11 Zapruder frames and made a GIF that had a 0.6 second cycle, it's not hard.
Also when I made the rotating Morphs from the stereoscopic Autopsy Photos, I can't alter anything because it's all there in the Public Domain, and I wasn't really surprised that each and every corresponding pixel lined up with mathematical accuracy.
And I know that your 3D work corresponds to the real World, you can't fake it because the Locations and objects all exist and thus can be checked.
Btw I had a second look at Griffith's Zapruder alterationist page and I don't think I saw even one special effects artist with celluloid experience give an opinion, I'm sure that if Griffith was "Honest" he would have approached at least one SFX specialist and I guarantee that they would flat out say that what he proposes is off with the fairies. Kinda Like Sandy Larson over at the ED Forum who when Zapruder fakery come up, he shows appropriately a "cartoon" GIF of Penguins dancing with a smoothly panning Dick Van Dyke who's outlined by heavy matte artefacts, whereas the Zapruder film is literally a shaky hand held shot with perfectly blended motion blur on each and every microscopic film grain. The fact that he believes that a cartoon with a badly superimposed actor is representative of the complexities of altering the infinitely more intricate Zapruder Film boggles the mind!
JohnM
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First of all, your Maths is wrong, Zapruder frames from Z277 to Z287 is 11 frames! Oops! We're not off to a good start, are we.
Secondly my earlier GIF starts at Z176 and ends at Z296 and since I emphasized that I was focusing on the natural movement of his son, the animation obviously will run slightly slower than the original, and by the way in your text in the PDF that you linked to, you state that Brehm's son started from a standing position, how did you come to that conclusion because Frame Z276 shows Brehm's son already in motion stepping out from behind his dad.
Anyway, so you can't nit pick over insignificant details here's your "11" Zapruder frames from Z177 to Z187 in real time and each cycle is 0.6 seconds which is virtually identical to 11/18.3 and we see nothing even closely resembling superhuman, just normal expected movement! Why do you think that at a point in the Zapruder film where nothing happens, they would alter Brehm's son, do you think he was one of the assassin's with a killer water pistol?
JohnM
It's 10 frames, if not arguably nine frames, (1) because his movement does not become discernible until Z279, and (2) because he has completed the movement of his feet in Z287. In saying 10 frames, I've been giving the benefit of the doubt to the duration of the movement. In point of fact, one could plausibly argue that the movement begins in Z279, because he appears to be in virtually the same exact position in Z278 as he does in Z277. I decided to err on the side of caution and assume he began to make the movement in Z278, with Z277 being his starting-point position.
But, let's say 11 frames for the sake of argument. 11 frames is 0.61 seconds--as opposed to 0.56 seconds for 10 frames, a whopping difference of 0.05 seconds (or 1/20th/second). Okay, 0.61 seconds is still far, far too little time to perform the movements that the son performs. No one can go from the son's starting-point position to standing calmly and clapping in just 0.61 seconds. I did a reenactment with one of my sons, and he could not even come close to doing those movements in that amount of time.
I take it you're not going to address all the other points I made.
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It's 10 frames, if not arguably nine frames, (1) because his movement does not become discernible until Z279, and (2) because he has completed the movement of his feet in Z287. In saying 10 frames, I've been giving the benefit of the doubt to the duration of the movement. In point of fact, one could plausibly argue that the movement begins in Z279, because he appears to be in virtually the same exact position in Z278 as he does in Z277. I decided to err on the side of caution and assume he began to make the movement in Z278, with Z277 being his starting-point position.
But, let's say 11 frames for the sake of argument. 11 frames is 0.61 seconds--as opposed to 0.56 seconds for 10 frames, a whopping difference of 0.05 seconds (or 1/20th/second). Okay, 0.61 seconds is still far, far too little time to perform the movements that the son performs. No one can go from the son's starting-point position to standing calmly and clapping in just 0.61 seconds. I did a reenactment with one of my sons, and he could not even come close to doing those movements in that amount of time.
I take it you're not going to address all the other points I made.
I'm waiting on John too. It seems if he can tear into a CT related issue/image(s), he does so Immediately. His failure to respond indicates he has been unable to find anything to debunk or even challenge the issue at hand. At some point, the frustration of being unable to debunk a CT posting usually produces a "cartoon" response. This is not uncommon on this Forum. Personally, I regard cartoon responses and general joke responses as the waving of a White Flag. In short, "They got nothing".
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I'm waiting on John too. It seems if he can tear into a CT related issue/image(s), he does so Immediately. His failure to respond indicates he has been unable to find anything to debunk or even challenge the issue at hand. At some point, the frustration of being unable to debunk a CT posting usually produces a "cartoon" response. This is not uncommon on this Forum. Personally, I regard cartoon responses and general joke responses as the waving of a White Flag. In short, "They got nothing".
As I've said for many years, if WC apologists want us to believe that Brehm's son could have performed those movements in the time required by the Zapruder film, all they have to do is duplicate the alleged performance in a reenactment and post a video of the reenactment. This should be a simple, easy thing to do, to believe their polemic on the issue.
My OP does not even mention some of the most glaring, unsolvable conflicts between eyewitness accounts and the lone-gunman theory. Some additional examples:
-- All three autopsy doctors said there was a fragment trail that ran from the EOP entry site up to a point just above the right orbit, and the autopsy report describes this fragment trail. However, (1) even the WC recognized that JFK would have had to be leaning about 60 degrees forward for a bullet from the alleged sniper's nest to have created this fragment trail, and (2) astonishingly, no such fragment trail appears on the existing autopsy x-rays.
-- The autopsy report and the autopsy doctors never mentioned the high fragment trail, yet the trail is brazenly obvious on the lateral skull x-rays. A first-year medical student could spot it. That trail is at least 2 inches above the trail described in the autopsy report and in the autopsy doctors' other statements.
-- Numerous, and I mean numerous, eyewitness accounts document that pieces of brain tissue from JFK's brain were blown onto at least 16 surfaces, and several eyewitnesses who saw JFK's wounded head (including mortician Tom Robinson) said that at least one-quarter to over one-half of the brain was missing, as I document in my book. But, according to Vincent Bugliosi, no more than two ounces of brain tissue were missing from JFK's brain. Why did Bugliosi make this stunning claim? Because the autopsy brain photos show virtually no missing brain tissue. Dr. Baden assured Bugliosi that the brain photos showed no more than "an ounce or two" of missing brain tissue.
Moreover, the autopsy skull x-rays show that at over half of the right side of the brain was missing, in harmony with the witnesses who said that a substantial portion of the brain was blown out. Heck, Humes himself told JAMA that "two thirds of the right cerebrum had been blown away." No such damage is seen in the autopsy brain photos.
-- Every single autopsy witness who commented on the location of the rear head entry wound said it was where the autopsy doctors placed it in the autopsy report: they said it was slightly above and to the right of the EOP. But that's impossible if the autopsy brain photos are authentic, because a bullet entering at the EOP site would have torn through the cerebellum and part of the rear area of the right occipital lobe, yet the brain photos show a virtually undamaged cerebellum and right occipital lobe, as the HSCA medical experts pointed out to the autopsy doctors.
I document all these points in my book.
And on and on we could go.
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Did you read the series of books that Doug Horne penned detailing the work of the ARRB? Part of that series detailed the general autopsy, X-Rays, Photos, etc. I believe they got in to the JFK brain sectioning. Both Horne and Gunn agreed that there was 2 "autopsies" of some degree. Gunn even questioned Humes for the final time. By then, Humes was pretty old and spilling info that he previously withheld. Including how much earlier he 1st saw the JFK Casket/Body being delivered to the Bethesda Morgue. Earlier than Jackie and the JFK Hearse/Casket arrived.
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Did you read the series of books that Doug Horne penned detailing the work of the ARRB? Part of that series detailed the general autopsy, X-Rays, Photos, etc. I believe they got in to the JFK brain sectioning. Both Horne and Gunn agreed that there was 2 "autopsies" of some degree. Gunn even questioned Humes for the final time. By then, Humes was pretty old and spilling info that he previously withheld. Including how much earlier he 1st saw the JFK Casket/Body being delivered to the Bethesda Morgue. Earlier than Jackie and the JFK Hearse/Casket arrived.
Yes, I've read Doug Horne's five-volume work Inside the Assassination Records Review Board and also just about everything he has published online.
One of the most valuable facts that Horne has uncovered is the fact that Fink was excluded from one of the two brain exams. This could explain why Finck told the ARRB that there was "extensive damage" done to the cerebellum. He obviously was not describing the brain seen in the autopsy brain photos, which shows no pre-mortem damage to the cerebellum except for one tiny piece of tissue partially dislodged on the bottom of the cerebellum.
One of the main reasons, if not the main reason, that the HSCA medical experts believed the rear head entry wound could not be near the EOP is that they accepted (or said they accepted) the autopsy brain photos as authentic. They hammered the autopsy doctors on the virtually intact/undamaged condition of the cerebellum and the rear of the right occipital lobe in the brain photos. Dr. Loquvam pounced on Finck regarding this enormous, glaring contradiction, and Finck admitted he could not explain it. Dr. Petty literally yelled at Dr. Humes off-the-record over his refusal to acknowledge that the brain photos made the EOP entry site impossible.
Yet, years later, the autopsy doctors were vindicated on the EOP entry site, and now even Dr. SPersonivan and the super-cautious Pat Speer acknowledge that the EOP entry site is correct (but neither of them can explain why the autopsy brain photos so drastically contradict the EOP site--SPersonivan hasn't even tried).
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It's 10 frames, if not arguably nine frames, (1) because his movement does not become discernible until Z279, and (2) because he has completed the movement of his feet in Z287. In saying 10 frames, I've been giving the benefit of the doubt to the duration of the movement. In point of fact, one could plausibly argue that the movement begins in Z279, because he appears to be in virtually the same exact position in Z278 as he does in Z277. I decided to err on the side of caution and assume he began to make the movement in Z278, with Z277 being his starting-point position.
But, let's say 11 frames for the sake of argument. 11 frames is 0.61 seconds--as opposed to 0.56 seconds for 10 frames, a whopping difference of 0.05 seconds (or 1/20th/second). Okay, 0.61 seconds is still far, far too little time to perform the movements that the son performs. No one can go from the son's starting-point position to standing calmly and clapping in just 0.61 seconds. I did a reenactment with one of my sons, and he could not even come close to doing those movements in that amount of time.
I take it you're not going to address all the other points I made.
1. You gave a starting point of Z277 and a stopping frame of Z287, which is 11 Frames. Sorry about that!
2. On your Zapruder misinformation page you said that you had your son standing behind a chair when you carried out your experiment because you assumed that Brehm's son was standing but as I pointed out, in the frame previous to your starting point we can see that Brehm's son was already in motion. You amateurs with your self serving assumptions, make me laugh!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nj9vH0DS/Brehm-s-son-on-the-move.gif)
3. I made a stabilized real time GIF across the frames you specified and there is nothing unusual, how about you show this GIF to someone who is completely impartial and get their opinion because I did and they saw nothing unusual, only a simple natural movement.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W32ngH6y/Brehm-Zapruder.gif)
I take it you're not going to address all the other points I made.
Your points are just more amateur observations, for example the difference of perspective is the reason of your perceived difference in Jackie's position on the trunk in Nix and Zapruder.
And your Malcolm Summers gaff is another perspective mistake, Malcolm's left leg is not bent backwards but is splayed forward, with his left shoe clearly visible over the top of his right shin.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nj3q7wPM/Malcom-Left-leg-pointing-forward-on-right-leg.jpg)
Btw I hope you correct these amateur errors on your PDF, because there is already way too much JFKA misinformation out there.
JohnM
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One of Griffith's cheap tactics is his lazy cut-n-paste Gish's Gallop. When he's losing, he will predictably dump a -----load of unrelated CT fantasy defections. So where's the video of his "reenactment" of the Brehm child's "impossible" movement? Probably playing in the windmills of his mind.
Oh Yeah, Griffith's full of it alright, here's a couple of his other tactics.
1. Here, look at this "Expert" with a PHD in Medicine/Mathematics etc etc, prove my point by making a comment about some subject totally out of their field, for example, film alteration, ballistics etc etc.
2. Griffiths tactic of placing himself at the forefront of the research timeline. For instance, Griffith attempted to refute my "Stereoscopic Autopsy Morphs" discovery by irrelevantly and nonsensically saying that not all the Autopsy photos were taken Stereoscopically and therefore he claimed "You're years behind the information curve". When in fact ironically, Griffith with a Neanderthal understanding of this technological breakthrough, he was indeed himself "decades behind the information curve"! Go figure.
Btw, I'd also like to see his video proof of his son's possible/impossible movement but I'm guessing that he's realized it is in fact quite possible and altering PDF's, web pages and his book is just too much trouble! I mean why muddy the waters and the subsequent money train with reality, right?
JohnM
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I take it you're not going to address all the other points I made.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNsd2Dgx/Griffith-Zapruder-Nix-alteration-Hill-Jackie.jpg)
I cut and pasted the above from Griffith's Zapruder alteration PDF, I chose a more unobstructed view at a point where Hill first has both feet on the rear of the Limo, the frames are Zapruder 383 and Nix 279.
Now using line of sight and a reasonably accurate positioning of Hill's and Jackie's heads (while not pixel perfect it is close enough to convey the basic concept) we can see by using perspective and the filming positions of Nix and Zapruder, why their heads are relatively touching in Nix while far apart in Zapruder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbt20LdJ/z383-n279.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxKbGKCr/Hill-Jackie-on-Limo-a.jpg)
To make the actual dimensions of the trunk area clearer I've put vertical posts on the rear corners of the Limo and since Nix was holding his camera at a slight angle I've appropriately compensated the Nix Trunk posts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkkjmsNs/z383-n279-posts.jpg)
JohnM
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1. You gave a starting point of Z277 and a stopping frame of Z287, which is 11 Frames. Sorry about that!
One, but you can't count the first frame as the time it took to perform the actual movement if that's the point from which he moved, unless you assume that the son was already in motion in Z277. This isn't like counting calendar days. If he was not in motion in Z277, then you can't count Z277 as part of the time it took to perform the movements.
Two, but as I said in my reply, let's assume 11 frames for the sake of argument. Again, 11 frames is only 0.61 seconds--as opposed to 0.56 seconds for 10 frames, a whopping difference of 0.05 seconds (or 1/20th/second). 0.61 seconds is still far, far too little time to perform the movements that the son performs. No one can go from the son's starting-point position to standing calmly and clapping in just 0.61 seconds, even if one assume the son was moving by or even before Z277.
Prove me wrong. Do a reenactment with a child around the age of Brehm's son. Heck, use an adult if you want. Videotape the reenactment. Prove that someone can perform those movements in no less than 0.61 seconds. You can even have the person start moving before you start timing him/her. Do the reenactment and post the video. Let's see it.
2. On your Zapruder misinformation page you said that you had your son standing behind a chair when you carried out your experiment because you assumed that Brehm's son was standing but as I pointed out, in the frame previous to your starting point we can see that Brehm's son was already in motion. You amateurs with your self serving assumptions, make me laugh!
"You amateurs," huh?! And who are you? What books have you published on the JFK case? How many degrees do you have? What's the URL for your JFK assassination website? What articles have you written on the subject? Trolling the Internet in defense of a theory that 2/3 of the Western world rejects does not qualify you to be attacking anyone as an "amateur."
And, I hate to say this, but you really shouldn't call someone an "amateur" and then in the same sentence commit a basic writing error. The term "self serving" in your sentence should be hyphenated ("self-serving") because it is a unit modifier. In fact, when the word "self" is used with another word to modify a third word, it should be hyphenated. If you doubt me, Google "self unit modifier punctuation."
Anyway, you don't know if the son had merely finished shifting his foot in Z277, as people often do when they're standing for a time. The rest of his body appears to stay in the exact same position until Z279, so the movement of the right foot is something of a thin reed on which to base your argument.
But, as I said above, go ahead and assume that the son started moving before Z277. That does not alter the fact that by Z287 he is standing calmly--and even clapping--beside his father, showing no signs of having completed what would have had to be a very rapid movement, as my reenactment with my son proved. Again, my son failed to match the Brehm son's time even though he was practically jumping on his last three attempts.
Whatever you want to assume about the son's movements before Z277, you still need to get him beside his father standing calmly and clapping by Z287. Again, if you assume he was moving by Z277, that gives you just 11 frames, only 0.61 seconds. Do a reeactment, videotape it, and post the video. Let's see it.
3. I made a stabilized real time GIF across the frames you specified and there is nothing unusual, how about you show this GIF to someone who is completely impartial and get their opinion because I did and they saw nothing unusual, only a simple natural movement.
As a matter of fact, I have actually showed the Brehm son's movement to people who knew nothing or very little about the case, and every single one of them said it was unnaturally fast, impossibly fast, unfeasible, etc.
Your phony GIF starts too soon and thus the movements take more than twice as long as the movements in the Zapruder film, even if you assume 11 frames as the time span.
Your points are just more amateur observations, for example the difference of perspective is the reason of your perceived difference in Jackie's position on the trunk in Nix and Zapruder.
And I say this is total hogwash. You know this is nonsense, or else your eyesight is quite bad. This is not even a close call. In the Zapruder film, Jackie goes nowhere near as close to Agent Hill as the Nix film shows her going. Z380 shows her as close as she gets to Agent Hill in the Zapruder film, before she starts to move backward to return to her seat, which movement begins in Z381. Anyone with decent vision can see that she is much closer to Hill in the Nix film than she ever gets to him in the Zapruder film.
Moreover, in the Nix film, she is sprawled lower on the trunk--her body is clearly closer to the trunk than it is in the Zapruder film; her right arm is extended farther than it is in the Zapruder film; and her right forearm appears to be almost touching the trunk, whereas in the Zapruder film her right forearm remains virtually straight and at about a 45-degree angle in relation to the trunk. In addition, in the Nix film, her head appears to be almost touching Hill's head, whereas in the Zapruder film her head is at least 3 feet from Hill's head. I know you can see these things. They are obvious.
And, by the way, the camera angles of Zapruder's and Nix's cameras in relation to the limo during this sequence, though shot from opposite sides of the limo, are not markedly different.
I recommend Milicent Cranor's detailed article on this crucial evidence of alteration:
https://whowhatwhy.org/politics/government-integrity/jfk-assassination-film-proof-of-tampering/ (https://whowhatwhy.org/politics/government-integrity/jfk-assassination-film-proof-of-tampering/)
And your Malcolm Summers gaff is another perspective mistake, Malcolm's left leg is not bent backwards but is splayed forward, with his left shoe clearly visible over the top of his right shin.
More nonsense. Do you think people aren't going to see that your description is misleading and incomplete? In Z353 Summers' left leg is extended most of the way out. But, in the very next frame, Z354, just 1/18th/second later, the foreleg is bent markedly backward. Then, in Z355, 1/18th/second later, Summers' left leg is bent even farther backward. Then, in Z356, the left foot seems to be on the ground. Are you telling me you can't see these things? Really?
Again, either your eyesight is bad or you are dissembling.
But, hey, this is another case where you can prove your point by doing a reenactment, videotaping it, and posting it. I tried duplicating Summers' left-leg movements and could not even remotely come close. They are way too fast for humans on this planet. If you say they are normal and doable, then it should be a simple matter for you to prove this claim with a reenactment. Let's see it.
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With regard to your mentioning the Closeness between Jackie and SA Hill on the NIX FILM vs the Distance between them on the Zapruder Film, CIA Image Expert Dino Brugioni brought this same point up when he was shown the Current Zapruder Film. Brugioni said as he recalled, the Zapruder Film he examined on 11/23/63 showed much more contact between Jackie and SA Hill. This is another example of why I continue stressing that it is No Mystery why the Original NIX FILM has been missing for decades. Filmed from the other side of Elm St, the Original NIX FILM would FACT CHECK the Current Zapruder Film.
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With regard to your mentioning the Closeness between Jackie and SA Hill on the NIX FILM vs the Distance between them on the Zapruder Film, CIA Image Expert Dino Brugioni brought this same point up when he was shown the Current Zapruder Film. Brugioni said as he recalled, the Zapruder Film he examined on 11/23/63 showed much more contact between Jackie and SA Hill. This is another example of why I continue stressing that it is No Mystery why the Original NIX FILM has been missing for decades. Filmed from the other side of Elm St, the Original NIX FILM would FACT CHECK the Current Zapruder Film.
Oh, yes. Good point. And that reminds me! I forgot to mention that Clint Hill told the WC that he "grabbed" Jackie and "put her back in the back seat":
She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the seat. . . . (2 H 139)
But in the current Zapruder film, he never comes close to touching her during the sequence in question, so Hill's testimony is irrelevant to the sequence.
Thank you for jogging my memory. I need to add this key point to my article on Z-film alteration.
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Oh, yes. Good point. And that reminds me! I forgot to mention that Clint Hill told the WC that he "grabbed" Jackie and "put her back in the back seat":
She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the seat. . . . (2 H 139)
But in the current Zapruder film, he never comes close to touching her.
Thank you for jogging my memory. I need to add this key point to my article on Z-film alteration.
This is the only tactic they have left. Attack YOU with all kinds of erroneous and personnel BS: hoping that they can redirect the discussion away from the Issue(s) at hand.
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Oh, yes. Good point. And that reminds me! I forgot to mention that Clint Hill told the WC that he "grabbed" Jackie and "put her back in the back seat":
She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the seat. . . . (2 H 139)
But in the current Zapruder film, he never comes close to touching her.
Thank you for jogging my memory. I need to add this key point to my article on Z-film alteration.
How about jogging your memory about what's actually seen in the Zapruder Film! That would be a good start, ya think?
Not only does Clint Hill come close to Jackie, he grabs her arm and pushes her back to her seat. Oops!
(https://i.postimg.cc/90K0CqMY/Clint-Hill-grabbin-Jackie-Z383-to-Z413.gif)
To paraphrase Apocalypse Now, "The bullSpotty Avocada is piling up so fast around here you need wings to stay above it!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here's some more food for thought.
In the Life Magazine article on the stands a week later, multiple Zapruder frames were printed which can with perfect precision be reinserted back into the currently authenticated Zapruder Film and allowing for the acquirement, organising, laying out, printing and distribution of this Issue of Life Magazine, gave very little time for any "Griffith Scale Alteration"!
Hollywood Films with a literal SFX crew of many hundreds with banks of Modern Computer Power can take up to a year to produce the finished product, and just go to any Forum and plenty of discerning critics of the latest Marvel Film, still say they look fake but the Zapruder Film is and always will be Photorealistic!
Here's the Life Magazine of 29th November 1963 and the main frame of the Hill and Jackie sequence which is the merest split second away of Griffiths example on his Disinformation Zapruder PDF.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1gF3pJX/life-nov-29-1963-1-copy-zpsda75052e.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrLnB5wK/life-nov-29-1963-2-copy.jpg)
Here's a GIF showing virtually all the key frames from the 29/11/1963 Zapruder Life Magazine reinserted back into the Zapruder Film, meaning that any alteration away from these frames like Griffith's "Brehm's son impossible movement" had to synch back to these frames, which becomes another massive impossible hurdle!
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGwkM0rr/Zap-life-frame-indicator.gif)
Case Closed!
JohnM
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Oh, yes. Good point. And that reminds me! I forgot to mention that Clint Hill told the WC that he "grabbed" Jackie and "put her back in the back seat":
She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the seat. . . . (2 H 139)
But in the current Zapruder film, he never comes close to touching her.
Thank you for jogging my memory. I need to add this key point to my article on Z-film alteration.
Well since you were provably wrong re this "key point", here's a another massive blunder that will need addressing, you label your Zapruder Frame 380 when in fact the actual frame you posted is Z375, I hope this embarrassment isn't in your book because that may be difficult to correct! It's no wonder with this level of research, you get everything wrong.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNsd2Dgx/Griffith-Zapruder-Nix-alteration-Hill-Jackie.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/X72km95B/Z-380.jpg)
I take it you're not going to address all the other points I made.
I have been getting through some of the more ridiculous misrepresentations and your outrageous "observations" and so far your responses are what I expect from your faith bound delusions.
Anyway you state on your Deceptive JFK Alteration PDF that JFK's limo either slowed or stopped, of which there is a distinct difference but what the heck, let's hedge our bets, whatever it takes, eh Griffith.
Anyway a dramatic slow down at the time of the head shot can be seen in the following panorama viewing of the Zapruder Film.
Btw the score so far
Mytton 5 vs Griffith 0
JohnM
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MG: Oh, yes. Good point. And that reminds me! I forgot to mention that Clint Hill told the WC that he "grabbed" Jackie and "put her back in the back seat":
She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the seat. . . . (2 H 139)
But in the current Zapruder film, he never comes close to touching her.
Well since you were provably wrong re this "key point",
This is clownish polemic. Which Zapruder frame even shows Hill touching Jackie, much less grabbing her and putting her back in her seat? Please show it to us.
It is amazing that you make such absurd claims with such adamance. Yet, you duck facts that you can't explain and decline to provide evidence when asked to do so.
So let me repeat: Show us the Zapruder frame where Hill even touches Jackie, much less grabs her and puts her back in her seat. I'm going to keep repeating this challenge until you address it.
here's a another massive blunder that will need addressing, you label your Zapruder Frame 380 when in fact the actual frame you posted is Z375, I hope this embarrassment isn't in your book because that may be difficult to correct! It's no wonder with this level of research, you get everything wrong.
A "massive blunder"? Hill's and Jackie's positions and locations in Z375 are virtually identical to their positions and locations in Z380.
But, yes, you are correct that my article mislabels Z375 as Z380. This occurred because I used the Z frame that Cranor uses in her article, and I incorrectly assumed that she was using Z380, since she notes that Jackie begins to retreat in Z381, when in fact I see now that she uses Z375.
I'll be happy to change the frame in my article from Z375 to Z380, since Z380 is just as devastating as Z375 in proving that the current Zapruder film demonstrably contradicts the Nix film regarding how close Hill came to Jackie and Jackie's movements.
I have been getting through some of the more ridiculous misrepresentations and your outrageous "observations" and so far your responses are what I expect from your faith bound delusions.
Oh, so you're another anti-religious bigot. FYI, my faith has nothing to do with my observations about the Zapruder film. Plenty of non-religious and/or atheistic/agnostic researchers have noted that the Nix film severely contradicts the Zapruder film, that the limo never markedly slows or stops in the Zapruder film, that Brehm's son moves far too quickly, etc., etc.
Anyway you state on your Deceptive JFK Alteration PDF that JFK's limo either slowed or stopped, of which there is a distinct difference but what the heck, let's hedge our bets, whatever it takes, eh Griffith.
You again show that your command of written English is poor, one could even say "amateurish." When you're addressing someone by name, you always, always, always put a comma before the name if it comes at the end of the statement (and after the name if the name is stated first). You can Google this basic fact of punctuation, if you don't believe me.
Anyway, leaving aside your apparent lack of higher education, I do not merely say "slowed or stopped" or "stopped or slowed" in my article: I say "stopped or slowed down markedly for at least a second or two," "came to a full stop or slowed down markedly," and "Nothing like the stop or rapid slowdown described above appears in the current Zapruder film."
Why did you misrepresent what I said? Surely you knew there's a difference between saying "slowed down" and "slowed down markedly."
Anyway a dramatic slow down at the time of the head shot can be seen in the following panorama viewing of the Zapruder Film.
Just shaking my head. This is both comical and discrediting. Where is the "dramatic slow down" in your video??? Where is it??? This is another one of your fraudulent, deceptive productions, not to mention another prime example of your habit of severely exaggerating. There is no "dramatic slow down" in your "panorama viewing" version.
Moreover, many of the witnesses specified that they saw the limo stop or markedly slow down after they heard the first shot, well before the Z313 shot.
The only slowdown that any expert has detected in the Zapruder film is the split-second slowing of the limousine in Z295-304. Dr. Luis Alvarez detected this half-second slowdown after carefully studying the film frame by frame, and Dr. Art Snyder confirmed Alvarez's finding. When you watch the film at normal speed, this slowdown is imperceptible. Even if know about it in advance and are carefully looking for it, even then it's barely noticeable, because it's so brief. No one can seriously suggest that this imperceptible or barely noticeable half-second slowdown is the event that dozens of witnesses described as a complete stop or a marked slowdown.
And, by the way, just on a point of basic English, you can't say "panorama viewing." "Panorama" is a noun, not an adjective. You should have said "panoramic viewing," not "panorama viewing." Did you ever attend college?
Btw the score so far
Mytton 5 vs Griffith 0
JohnM
Oh, gee, are we in high school or something? This is juvenile, immature polemic, the kind of stuff one would expect from a teenager.
When are you going to address all the points that I have presented to you but that you have so far ignored?
Finally, allow me to give you another lesson in basic English writing. "Btw" should be "BTW" because it's an abbreviation where each letter stands for a word, as in "FYI" and "ASAP." And "vs" should be "vs." You need a period after the s. Check the Cambridge Dictionary online, if you don't believe me.
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He's still smarting from Providing his copy of the NIX FILM, which I turned around on him and used as the foundational Proof that a WHITE SHIRT MAN moved UP The Steps and disappeared into darkness. Stay On-Topic, On-Fact. Don't permit your FACTS to get buried in a degenerating Food Fight. And do Not be shy about taking your Victory Lap when he and his type get desperately to the point of flat-out misrepresentation followed by slander. This poor soul has now crossed into that territory.
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This is clownish polemic. Which Zapruder frame even shows Hill touching Jackie, much less grabbing her and putting her back in her seat? Please show it to us.
It is amazing that you make such absurd claims with such adamance. Yet, you duck facts that you can't explain and decline to provide evidence when asked to do so.
So let me repeat: Show us the Zapruder frame where Hill even touches Jackie, much less grabs her and puts her back in her seat. I'm going to keep repeating this challenge until you address it.
A "massive blunder"? Hill's and Jackie's positions and locations in Z375 are virtually identical to their positions and locations in Z380.
But, yes, you are correct that my article mislabels Z375 as Z380. This occurred because I used the Z frame that Cranor uses in her article, and I incorrectly assumed that she was using Z380, since she notes that Jackie begins to retreat in Z381, when in fact I see now that she uses Z375.
I'll be happy to change the frame in my article from Z375 to Z380, since Z380 is just as devastating as Z375 in proving that the current Zapruder film demonstrably contradicts the Nix film regarding how close Hill came to Jackie and Jackie's movements.
Oh, so you're another anti-religious bigot. FYI, my faith has nothing to do with my observations about the Zapruder film. Plenty of non-religious and/or atheistic/agnostic researchers have noted that the Nix film severely contradicts the Zapruder film, that the limo never markedly slows or stops in the Zapruder film, that Brehm's son moves far too quickly, etc., etc.
You again show that your command of written English is poor, one could even say "amateurish." When you're addressing someone by name, you always, always, always put a comma before the name. You can Google this basic fact of punctuation, if you don't believe me.
Anyway, leaving aside your apparent lack of higher education, I do not merely say "slowed or stopped" or "stopped or slowed" in my article: I say "stopped or slowed down markedly for at least a second or two," "came to a full stop or slowed down markedly," and "Nothing like the stop or rapid slowdown described above appears in the current Zapruder film."
Why did you misrepresent what I said? Surely you knew there's a difference between saying "slowed down" and "slowed down markedly."
Just shaking my head. This is both comical and discrediting. Where is the "dramatic slow down" in your video??? Where is it??? This is another one of your fraudulent, deceptive productions, not to mention another prime example of your habit of severely exaggerating. There is no "dramatic slow down" in your "panorama viewing" version.
Moreover, many of the witnesses specified that they saw the limo stop or markedly slow down after they heard the first shot, well before the Z313 shot.
The only slowdown that any expert has detected in the Zapruder film is the split-second slowing of the limousine in Z295-304. Dr. Luis Alvarez detected this half-second slowdown after carefully studying the film frame by frame, and Dr. Art Snyder confirmed Alvarez's finding. When you watch the film at normal speed, this slowdown is imperceptible. Even if know about it in advance and are carefully looking for it, even then it's barely noticeable, because it's so brief. No one can seriously suggest that this imperceptible or barely noticeable half-second slowdown is the event that dozens of witnesses described as a complete stop or a marked slowdown.
And, by the way, just on a point of basic English, you can't say "panorama viewing." "Panorama" is a noun, not an adjective. You should have said "panoramic viewing," not "panorama viewing." Did you ever attend college?
Oh, gee, are we in high school or something? This is juvenile, immature polemic, the kind of stuff one would expect from a teenager.
When are you going to address all the points that I have presented to you but that you have so far ignored?
Finally, allow me to give you another lesson in basic English writing. "Btw" should be "BTW" because it's an abbreviation where each letter stands for a word, as in "FYI" and "ASAP." And "vs" should be "vs." You need a period after the s. Check the Cambridge Dictionary online, if you don't believe me.
Which Zapruder frame even shows Hill touching Jackie, much less grabbing her and putting her back in her seat? Please show it to us.
I already posted not one frame but an entire sequence, Clint Hill is on the back of a moving vehicle, with one arm Clint is holding on for dear life and he grabs Jackie with his other arm and pushes her back to her seat.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90K0CqMY/Clint-Hill-grabbin-Jackie-Z383-to-Z413.gif)
So let me repeat: Show us the Zapruder frame where Hill even touches Jackie, much less grabs her and puts her back in her seat. I'm going to keep repeating this challenge until you address it.
You can keep repeating it till the cows come home, but it won't change the visual record.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90K0CqMY/Clint-Hill-grabbin-Jackie-Z383-to-Z413.gif)
But, yes, you are correct that my article mislabels Z375 as Z380. This occurred because I used the Z frame that Cranor uses in her article, and I incorrectly assumed that she was using Z380, since she notes that Jackie begins to retreat in Z381, when in fact I see now that she uses Z375.
Thank you, but trying to blame someone else for your lack of fact checking is just par for the course for you isn't it! Man up!
I'll be happy to change the frame in my article from Z375 to Z380, since Z380 is just as devastating as Z375 in proving that the current Zapruder film demonstrably contradicts the Nix film regarding how close Hill came to Jackie and Jackie's movements.
When you were busy studying grammar in school you obviously forgot to learn about perspective and for that matter a little education on film alteration certainly would have stopped you looking like a Fool, anyway Zapruder and Nix were filming from opposite sides of Dealey Plaza.
In the following example, I chose a more unobstructed view at a point where Hill first has both feet on the rear of the Limo, the frames are Zapruder 383 and Nix 279.
Now using line of sight and a reasonably accurate positioning of Hill's and Jackie's heads (while not pixel perfect it is close enough to convey the basic concept) we can see by using perspective and the filming positions of Nix and Zapruder, why their heads are relatively touching in Nix while far apart in Zapruder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbt20LdJ/z383-n279.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxKbGKCr/Hill-Jackie-on-Limo-a.jpg)
Oh, gee, are we in high school or something? This is juvenile, immature polemic, the kind of stuff one would expect from a teenager.
Wow! English wasn't my first language or as a matter of fact not even my second, but the fact that you are reduced to pointing out insignificant grammatical errors and then using this feeble excuse as an attempt to belittle me demonstrates your laughable superiority complex. Do you feel better now you sad little man?
Oh, so you're another anti-religious bigot. FYI, my faith has nothing to do with my observations about the Zapruder film. Plenty of non-religious and/or atheistic/agnostic researchers have noted that the Nix film severely contradicts the Zapruder film, that the limo never markedly slows or stops in the Zapruder film, that Brehm's son moves far too quickly, etc., etc.
Wow times two, you have so many chips on your shoulders, "faith" isn't always associated with religion as in "his faith in the company was unfounded".
I really don't care on how you spend your Sundays but do you believe that your GOD would approve of the unwarranted attacks that you have inflicted upon me because aren't religious type people supposed to lead by example?
Did you ever attend college?
Well not for English, no. But perhaps if you focused on science, perspective, biology and physics you wouldn't be completely embarrassing yourself right now.
Finally, allow me to give you another lesson in basic English writing. "Btw" should be "BTW" because it's an abbreviation where each letter stands for a word, as in "FYI" and "ASAP."
Does it have to be capitalized? In informal, online communication, many people think of capitalization as optional. If you're using BTW in such a setting, go ahead and leave it in lowercase.
https://websitebuilders.com/how-to/glossary/btw/#:~:text=of%20our%20lexicon.-,Does%20it%20have%20to%20be%20capitalized%3F,and%20leave%20it%20in%20lowercase.
In common usage, these acronyms are rarely capitalized: omg, btw, nsfw.
https://www.writingforward.com/grammar/grammar-rules/grammar-rules-capitalization#:~:text=In%20common%20usage%2C%20these%20acronyms,%3A%20OMG%2C%20BTW%2C%20NSFW.
Anyway Griffith, thanks for the English lesson but I got each and every point across and at the end of the day language is used to communicate ideas, whereas you ended up looking like the aggressive overbearing Troll that you are, who can't win with his science, so instead uses irrelevant personal attacks.
Bye.
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Why did you misrepresent what I said? Surely you knew there's a difference between saying "slowed down" and "slowed down markedly."
Have you worked out the difference between "slow down" and "stopped"? LOL!
As I pointed out from my panoramic(thanks for the correction) stabilization, we can see the obvious dramatic slow down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrt12664/Zapruder-stabilized-a.gif)
JohnM
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I already posted not one frame but an entire sequence, Clint Hill is on the back of a moving vehicle, with one arm Clint is holding on for dear life and he grabs Jackie with his other arm and pushes her back to her seat.
You can keep repeating it till the cows come home, but it won't change the visual record.
Uh, this is long after the sequence under discussion. I was referring to the sequence before Z381, but I did not make this clear. Yes, of course, starting at Z387, we see Hill grabbing Jackie's right arm as he starts to put her back in the limo. This'll have to be one of those cases of "standing by what I meant to say." Given my wording, your response is understandable.
Thank you, but trying to blame someone else for your lack of fact checking is just par for the course for you isn't it! Man up!
Now you're just lying. I said I was the one who mistakenly assumed that Cranor was using Z380.
It says much that you are pouncing on a minor mistake that makes no substantive difference to my case, since Jackie and Hill's locations and positions in Z375 and Z380 are virtually identical.
When you were busy studying grammar in school you obviously forgot to learn about perspective and for that matter a little education on film alteration certainly would have stopped you looking like a Fool, anyway Zapruder and Nix were filming from opposite sides of Dealey Plaza.
You're lying again. I said, in plain English, that Nix and Zapruder filmed from opposite sides of the car. How did you miss that? And your own diagram shows that the Nix and Zapruder camera angles were not that different, just as I noted.
In the following example, I chose a more unobstructed view at a point where Hill first has both feet on the rear of the Limo, the frames are Zapruder 383 and Nix 279.
Now using line of sight and a reasonably accurate positioning of Hill's and Jackie's heads (while not pixel perfect it is close enough to convey the basic concept) we can see by using perspective and the filming positions of Nix and Zapruder, why their heads are relatively touching in Nix while far apart in Zapruder.
This is self-delusion. You can fiddle with graphics all you want, but anyone can plainly see that at no point before Z383 does Hill ever get close to Jackie. Your refusal to admit this is astounding. His right hand never gets near Jackie's right arm until Z387, and his head never comes close to Jackie's head, until perhaps in Z400. In Z380 his head is a good 3 feet from Jackie's head, but in the corresponding Nix frame their heads are so close they look like they could be touching.
Indeed, in the Nix film, Hill gets very close to Jackie before she starts to move backward, and, as I've noted previously, Jackie is much lower and closer to the trunk than she ever gets in the corresponding Z-film sequence. In fact, even in Z385, her right arm is not as parallel to the trunk and her body is not as close to the trunk as it is in the corresponding Nix sequence.
If you say that you just don't see these things, then I say that you're either lying or your eyesight is bad.
Wow! English wasn't my first language or as a matter of fact not even my second, but the fact that you are reduced to pointing out insignificant grammatical errors and then using this feeble excuse as an attempt to belittle me demonstrates your laughable superiority complex. Do you feel better now you sad little man?
Boo-hoo. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. From your first reply to me onward, your responses have been laced with insults, insinuations, and sarcasm, accusing me of being an "amateur," giving me 0 on your delusional scorecard and giving yourself 5, etc. If you're gonna engage in such posturing, don't whine when I point out your writing errors and apparent lack of education.
Wow times two, you have so many chips on your shoulders, "faith" isn't always associated with religion as in "his faith in the company was unfounded".
I really don't care on how you spend your Sundays but do you believe that your GOD would approve of the unwarranted attacks that you have inflicted upon me because aren't religious type people supposed to lead by example?
If you don't want to be called out for being an anti-religious bigot, then don't act like one--don't imply that my views on the JFK case are somehow based on my religious beliefs, which you clearly did.
Well not for English, no. But perhaps if you focused on science, perspective, biology and physics you wouldn't be completely embarrassing yourself right now.
Does it have to be capitalized? In informal, online communication, many people think of capitalization as optional. If you're using BTW in such a setting, go ahead and leave it in lowercase.
https://websitebuilders.com/how-to/glossary/btw/#:~:text=of%20our%20lexicon.-,Does%20it%20have%20to%20be%20capitalized%3F,and%20leave%20it%20in%20lowercase.
In common usage, these acronyms are rarely capitalized: omg, btw, nsfw.
https://www.writingforward.com/grammar/grammar-rules/grammar-rules-capitalization#:~:text=In%20common%20usage%2C%20these%20acronyms,%3A%20OMG%2C%20BTW%2C%20NSFW.
"Common usage"? "Many people think of capitalization as optional." Yes, and many people are poorly educated and look for excuses for their poor writing. How long did you have to search to find two websites that would say that in "common usage" capitalization is "optional"?
Anyway Griffith, thanks for the English lesson but I got each and every point across and at the end of the day language is used to communicate ideas, whereas you ended up looking like the aggressive overbearing Troll that you are, who can't win with his science, so instead uses irrelevant personal attacks.
Again, Crybaby, if you can't take it, don't dish it out. If you don't want your poor writing skills and education called out, stop acting like a jerk and stop posturing like anyone who disagrees with you knows nothing about "science, perspective, biology and physics."
And, BTW, I'd put my knowledge of those subjects up against yours any day.
Bye.
Bye, bye.
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What an obnoxious xxxxx.
Jerry, no one asked you to describe yourself, but thanks for sharing. You left out that you're an anti-religious bigot.
You are perhaps the biggest xxxxx and annoying propagandist ever to post on this board. I can't count how many times I've caught you posting utterly bogus graphics and showing a comical lack of knowledge, not to mention bald-faced lying, such as when you claimed that James DiEugenio resoundingly bested me on the Vietnam War in our exchanges in the Education Forum, when anyone can read our exchanges and see that I trounced DiEugenio and that he knows very little about the war.
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Uh, this is long after the sequence under discussion. I was referring to the sequence before Z381, but I did not make this clear. Yes, of course, starting at Z387, we see Hill grabbing Jackie's right arm as he starts to put her back in the limo. This'll have to be one of those cases of "standing by what I meant to say." Given my wording, your response is understandable.
Now you're just lying. I said I was the one who mistakenly assumed that Cranor was using Z380.
It says much that you are pouncing on a minor mistake that makes no substantive difference to my case, since Jackie and Hill's locations and positions in Z375 and Z380 are virtually identical.
You're lying again. I said, in plain English, that Nix and Zapruder filmed from opposite sides of the car. How did you miss that? And your own diagram shows that the Nix and Zapruder camera angles were not that different, just as I noted.
This is self-delusion. You can fiddle with graphics all you want, but anyone can plainly see that at no point before Z383 does Hill ever get close to Jackie. Your refusal to admit this is astounding. His right hand never gets near Jackie's right arm until Z387, and his head never comes close to Jackie's head, until perhaps in Z400. In Z380 his head is a good 3 feet from Jackie's head, but in the corresponding Nix frame their heads are so close they look like they could be touching.
Indeed, in the Nix film, Hill gets very close to Jackie before she starts to move backward, and, as I've noted previously, Jackie is much lower and closer to the trunk than she ever gets in the corresponding Z-film sequence. In fact, even in Z385, her right arm is not as parallel to the trunk and her body is not as close to the trunk as it is in the corresponding Nix sequence.
If you say that you just don't see these things, then I say that you're either lying or your eyesight is bad.
Boo-hoo. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. From your first reply to me onward, your responses have been laced with insults, insinuations, and sarcasm, accusing me of being an "amateur," giving me 0 on your delusional scorecard and giving yourself 5, etc. If you're gonna engage in such posturing, don't whine when I point out your writing errors and apparent lack of education.
If you don't want to be called out for being an anti-religious bigot, then don't act like one--don't imply that my views on the JFK case are somehow based on my religious beliefs, which you clearly did.
"Common usage"? "Many people think of capitalization as optional." Yes, and many people are poorly educated and look for excuses for their poor writing. How long did you have to search to find two websites that would say that in "common usage" capitalization is "optional"?
Again, Crybaby, if you can't take it, don't dish it out. If you don't want your poor writing skills and education called out, stop acting like a jerk and stop posturing like anyone who disagrees with you knows nothing about "science, perspective, biology and physics."
And, BTW, I'd put my knowledge of those subjects up against yours any day.
Bye, bye.
Uh, this is long after the sequence under discussion. I was referring to the sequence before Z381, but I did not make this clear. Yes, of course, starting at Z387, we see Hill grabbing Jackie's right arm as he starts to put her back in the limo. This'll have to be one of those cases of "standing by what I meant to say." Given my wording, your response is understandable.
You still haven't clarified at which point in Zapruder you mean?
You originally quoted the last part of the following response from Hill "She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the seat. . . . (2 H 139)" where Hill describes Jackie climbing on to the trunk and then he grabs her arm and puts her back in the seat, and the video I posted was after Jackie was climbing on to the back of the trunk and Hill grabs her arm and puts her back in the seat.
Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?
Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.
Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90K0CqMY/Clint-Hill-grabbin-Jackie-Z383-to-Z413.gif)
You're lying again. I said, in plain English, that Nix and Zapruder filmed from opposite sides of the car. How did you miss that? And your own diagram shows that the Nix and Zapruder camera angles were not that different, just as I noted.
What? Yes it's obvious to even "Blind Freddy" that Nix and Zapruder filmed from the opposite sides of the Limo, but how do you conclude that "the Nix and Zapruder camera angles were not that different"??
My diagram which is as I said not pixel perfect but is simply illustrating that while Hill's and Jackie's heads are nearly touching in Nix the reason they are far apart in Zapruder is caused by the change in perspective. I'll admit at first, well for a second or two, these images are counter-intuitive and even had me scratching my head but after thinking it through, the answer is undeniable. Sometimes it's best just to analyse the evidence as it stands and figure out any perceived anomalies rather than knee jerking that it must be fake!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbt20LdJ/z383-n279.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxKbGKCr/Hill-Jackie-on-Limo-a.jpg)
This is self-delusion. You can fiddle with graphics all you want, but anyone can plainly see that at no point before Z383 does Hill ever get close to Jackie. Your refusal to admit this is astounding. His right hand never gets near Jackie's right arm until Z387, and his head never comes close to Jackie's head, until perhaps in Z400. In Z380 his head is a good 3 feet from Jackie's head, but in the corresponding Nix frame their heads are so close they look like they could be touching.
Indeed, in the Nix film, Hill gets very close to Jackie before she starts to move backward, and, as I've noted previously, Jackie is much lower and closer to the trunk than she ever gets in the corresponding Z-film sequence. In fact, even in Z385, her right arm is not as parallel to the trunk and her body is not as close to the trunk as it is in the corresponding Nix sequence.
If you say that you just don't see these things, then I say that you're either lying or your eyesight is bad.
I didn't fiddle with anything, I just presented the appropriate frames, WYSIWYG! and Hill's testimony makes the timing clear, I don't understand why you have a problem. And as for Jackie's height and body part orientation in relation to the trunk, there is nothing unusual? Don't forget that Dealey Plaza slopes down and Nix was filming from higher position, hence why their heads are relatively touching.
Boo-hoo. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. From your first reply to me onward, your responses have been laced with insults, insinuations, and sarcasm, accusing me of being an "amateur," giving me 0 on your delusional scorecard and giving yourself 5, etc. If you're gonna engage in such posturing, don't whine when I point out your writing errors and apparent lack of education.
Oh, I see it's tit for tat, fair enough!
But anyway, in regards to my grammar, spelling, etc, I'm in good company. ;D
6. Albert Einstein
In Einstein's defense, English was his second language. It's therefore easy to understand why spelling and grammatical errors in his works were a constant source of frustration to the physicist. "I cannot write in English," he said, "because of the treacherous spelling."
https://theweek.com/articles/462824/11-historical-figures-who-really-bad-spelling
Albert Einstein, the most influential physicist of the 20th century, was dyslexic. He loved mathematics and science, but he disliked grammar and always had problems with spelling.
https://www.commlearn.com/famous-dyslexics-who-have-impacted-the-world/#:~:text=Albert%20Einstein%2C%20the%20most%20influential,always%20had%20problems%20with%20spelling.
3. Albert hated the strict discipline of the grammar school he attended as a teenager, and left aged 15…
While at school, he excelled at maths, physics, and philosophy, but struggled with other subjects like languages.
https://www.natgeokids.com/au/discover/science/general-science/albert-einstein-facts/
Would anyone be surprised that at the age of fifty-five he did not reach the same high level in English as he did in his mother tongue, and had, another decade later, to admit that he “cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling?”
http://www.albert-einstein.org/article_handicap.html
If you don't want to be called out for being an anti-religious bigot, then don't act like one--don't imply that my views on the JFK case are somehow based on my religious beliefs, which you clearly did.
Stop being so paranoid, I didn't have a clue what your religion is and I frankly don't care which god/devil you worship, that's your own business.
But your "faith" in a so far mysterious, unknown and unexplained conspiracy is what I find to be abhorrent! No Biggie!
"Common usage"? "Many people think of capitalization as optional." Yes, and many people are poorly educated and look for excuses for their poor writing. How long did you have to search to find two websites that would say that in "common usage" capitalization is "optional"?
They were literally the first Google responses to "Btw need to be capitals"
And, BTW, I'd put my knowledge of those subjects up against yours any day.
Huh? Not any day, today, we are putting our knowledge up against each other?
JohnM
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Yeah, I don't think too much of the silly Mormon "religion", which only renounced their racist founding principals a decade ago. It's one thing being born into something so stupid but you choose to join it.
Wow. Okay. I think you proved my point.
And, oh, BTW, the term is "founding principles," not "founding principals." English 101.
I said you suffered beatings on the other board and posted these examples from the Vietnam topic.
"You really do ally yourself with the LeMay camp. You really wanted
an all out WW2 style war in Vietnam. In other words, if you have to
do a Dresden type bombing of Hanoi, fine. If you want to firebomb
Haiphong, fine. If you want to invade Laos and Cambodia fine."
-- James DiEugenio
"This is not new. Revise all you like, but it won't work. Quoting self-
interested parties decades after the fact blaming our debacle on the
"anti-war" crowd or Congressional Democrats is incredibly weak sauce."
-- Paul Jolliffe
"Don't you understand anything about Vietnam Mike?"
-- James DiEugenio
"This VW loss was due to left-wing media? Some newspaper headlines
and a CBS special? This does not hold water.
-- Benjamin Cole
"It's just something that a tiny percentage of pretend "conservatives"
cling to so they can delude themselves into thinking they are "real men"
and that only "pussy Democrats" lose wars. It's total garbage, and
indicative of the bubble some wish to hide in."
-- Pat Speer
"Michael's Operation Linebacker argument is straight out of Craig
Roberts' pro-conspiracy Kill Zone book from '94. I'm assuming you've
read that one, Michael, am I right? If so, would you say he's right about
everything right up to when he starts pushing Rothschild conspiracies in
chapter 19... or do you think he's onto something with that too?"
-- James Wilkinson
"You've lost the debate if you refuse to engage with our counterarguments
and instead simply continue defaulting to repeating summaries of Vietnam's
post-war human rights violations, like a chatbot with a limited script. You're also
ignoring direct questions about whether you've read Kill Zone and subscribe to
his Rothschild conspiracy theories."
-- James Wilkinson
"Michael either doesn’t understand basic critical thinking, or he does and uses
logical fallacies knowingly. Basically it’s straw man."
-- Paul Brancato
Can't see where I said who won the debate.
Wow, what a liar you are. What do you think people will think about you if they go read those comments in the context of my posts that they were answering and my responses to their comments? They will see what a royal liar you are. They will see how dishonestly you selected those quotes. They will see that every person you quoted knows next to nothing about the Vietnam War, that their comments were uninformed and erroneous, and that I soundly refuted their arguments.
If anyone doubts this, here are the threads from which Jerry has so dishonestly cherry-picked his handful of comments:
Top 5 Books on JFK & Vietnam
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28983-top-5-books-on-jfk-vietnam/ (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28983-top-5-books-on-jfk-vietnam/)
Oliver Stone's New Documentary and the Vietnam War
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28074-oliver-stones-new-jfk-documentaries-and-the-vietnam-war/ (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28074-oliver-stones-new-jfk-documentaries-and-the-vietnam-war/)
The Myth that JFK Was Killed Over the Vietnam War
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29640-the-myth-that-jfk-was-killed-over-the-vietnam-war/ (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29640-the-myth-that-jfk-was-killed-over-the-vietnam-war/)
The Kennedy Withdrawal: The Definitive New Book on JFK and Vietnam
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28669-the-kennedy-withdrawal-the-definitive-new-book-on-jfk-and-vietnam/ (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28669-the-kennedy-withdrawal-the-definitive-new-book-on-jfk-and-vietnam/)
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Wow. Okay. I think you proved my point.
And, oh, BTW, the term is "founding principles," not "founding principals." English 101.
Wow, what a liar you are. What do you think people will think about you if they go read those comments in the context of my posts that they were answering and my responses to their comments? They will see what a royal liar you are. They will see how dishonestly you selected those quotes. They will see that every person you quoted knows next to nothing about the Vietnam War, that their comments were uninformed and erroneous, and that I soundly refuted their arguments.
If anyone doubts this, here are the threads from which Jerry has so dishonestly cherry-picked his handful of comments:
Top 5 Books on JFK & Vietnam
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28983-top-5-books-on-jfk-vietnam/ (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28983-top-5-books-on-jfk-vietnam/)
Oliver Stone's New Documentary and the Vietnam War
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28074-oliver-stones-new-jfk-documentaries-and-the-vietnam-war/ (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28074-oliver-stones-new-jfk-documentaries-and-the-vietnam-war/)
The Myth that JFK Was Killed Over the Vietnam War
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29640-the-myth-that-jfk-was-killed-over-the-vietnam-war/ (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29640-the-myth-that-jfk-was-killed-over-the-vietnam-war/)
Wow. Okay. I think you proved my point.
And, oh, BTW, the term is "founding principles," not "founding principals." English 101.
I learn something everyday, are you a Mormon, aren't they the guys who believe and base their religion on Joseph Smith who found the Golden Plates somewhere in America? Hmmm very interesting?!
I've met a lot of Mormon's and the ones who I didn't slam the door in their face, seemed to be committed to doing good and in my "Book of JohnM" I consider that to be an admirable trait!
Wow, what a liar you are. ....
Jerry can respond for himself but I don't see where he took a side, he simply said you took a beating and from those examples you certainly did. He never said or implied that you won or lost the debate.
Btw, I like how DiEugenio started calling you "Mike" you must have really gotten under his skin, like how he changed "David" Von Pein to "Davey"! Hahaha! DiEugenio is such a Big Baby!
To argue America's participation in the Vietnam war and what JFK would have done, in the biased environment of the rabid Ed Forum takes some Balls, what sort of reaction did you expect?
Re: the Vietnam War, My personal layman's opinion is, we can never truly know what would have happened if JFK stayed alive, but personally I believe that JFK would have done much the same as LBJ because of Kennedy's outspoken belief in the "Domino Theory"
JohnM
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Jerry can respond for himself but I don't see where he took a side, he simply said you took a beating and from those examples you certainly did. He never said or implied that you won or lost the debate. To argue America's participation in the Vietnam war and what JFK would have done, in the biased environment of the rabid Ed Forum takes some Balls, what sort of reaction did you expect?
In English, if you say someone "took a beating" in a debate, you are saying they lost the debate. I did not even remotely "take a beating" in my exchanges with DiEugenio, Brancato, Wilkinson, Jolliffe, etc. No sentient being who reads my exchanges with them could reach that conclusion. DiEugenio and the few others whom Jerry Organ quoted know very little about the Vietnam War, as anyone can see by reading our exchanges. Anyone who reads those exchanges will see that I caught DiEugenio in numerous severe gaffes about the war, gaffes that are as bad as saying that McGovern won the 1972 election.
Btw, I like how DiEugenio started calling you "Mike" you must have really gotten under his skin, like how he changed "David" Von Pein to "Davey"! Hahaha! DiEugenio is such a Big Baby!
That kind of stuff does not bother me. As you say, it shows immaturity. I trounced DiEugenio so badly in our Vietnam exchanges that he resorted to the high-school action of using the forum's "Ignore" function on me so that he doesn't receive notifications if I respond to him.
Re: the Vietnam War, My personal layman's opinion is, we can never truly know what would have happened if JFK stayed alive, but personally I believe that JFK would have done much the same as LBJ because of Kennedy's outspoken belief in the "Domino Theory"
Yes, and that is the position of nearly all JFK scholars. However, DiEugenio and his handful of far-left allies in the Education Forum not only argue that JFK absolutely, positively never would have escalated the war but that JFK was going to unconditionally withdraw from Vietnam after the election. Even most liberal scholars reject this Oliver Stone-Fletcher Prouty claim, as I repeatedly pointed out to DiEugenio and his allies.
BTW, DiEugenio and the others whom Organ quoted are big fans and defenders of the anti-Semitic crackpot L. Fletcher Prouty, who claimed that JFK was killed because he was going to pull out of Vietnam after the election, and that General Ed Lansdale was one of the plotters and was in Dealey Plaza on the day of the shooting. You might also be interested to know that some of the guys whom Organ quoted are also 9/11 Truthers, i.e., they believe that 9/11 was an inside job, that the WTC towers were brought down with "controlled demolitions," etc.
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John - I know you have your reason(s) for continually posting that JFK Limo scale drawing, but you need to realize that drawing does place Gov Connally DIRECTLY in front of JFK.
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John - I know you have your reason(s) for continually posting that JFK Limo scale drawing, but you need to realize that drawing does place Gov Connally DIRECTLY in front of JFK.
Geez Louise, as usual you're absolutely right, at the chosen Zapruder frame 383, Hill has teleported from the Queen Mary onto the rear of JFK's Limo and Jackie has phased a few feet back and to the right and as you alluded to, Kennedy is lying down and his head is left of centre and Connally is also closer to lying on his left side!!!!
Maybe you can post a new graphic and rectify my glaring mistakes? I'll be eternally grateful, thanks in advance!
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxKbGKCr/Hill-Jackie-on-Limo-a.jpg)
JohnM
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When you post a visual aid such as above, You also should consider other issues it might call into question or Prove. Up to you, but if you want to continually shoot yourself in the foot, go right ahead.
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When you post a visual aid such as above, You also should consider other issues it might call into question or Prove. Up to you, but if you want to continually shoot yourself in the foot, go right ahead.
Huh? As usual you're not making a speck of sense? I trust that the members and readers with an IQ above 7 realize the purpose of a basic plan diagram and not for one second assumed that the seated Kennedy and Connally were statue like mannequins! For instance the Zapruder film proves that at the time of the SBF, both men were perfectly aligned all the way back to Oswald and his rifle in Oswald's Sniper's Nest.
(https://assets.lastdodo.com/image/ld_medium/plain/assets/catalog/assets/2/1/4/5/pdf_14536670-eb9d-012c-9389-0050569428b1.jpg)
JohnM
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Huh? As usual you're not making a speck of sense? I trust that the members and readers with an IQ above 7 realize the purpose of a basic plan diagram and not for one second assumed that the seated Kennedy and Connally were statue like mannequins! For instance the Zapruder film proves that at the time of the SBF, both men were perfectly aligned all the way back to Oswald and his rifle in Oswald's Sniper's Nest.
(https://assets.lastdodo.com/image/ld_medium/plain/assets/catalog/assets/2/1/4/5/pdf_14536670-eb9d-012c-9389-0050569428b1.jpg)
JohnM
My preference continues to be a Tonka Dump Trunk. They're very durable which is mandatory for disposing of your never ending compost. The above being a perfect example. Once again, we have a SCIENCE DENIER claiming to Know more than SCIENCE. PS - Try keeping your distance from the airplane glue that was used to assemble your "Scientific" visual aid.