JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Bill Brown on June 12, 2024, 08:43:33 PM
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Author Dale Myers (With Malice - Lee Harvey Oswald and the Murder of Officer J.D. Tippit) puts forth the idea that Lee Oswald was walking east on Tenth Street toward the area of Marsalis and Jefferson. Oswald had a bus transfer in his pocket and the only bus stop in the entire Oak Cliff area which this transfer was good for was the bus stop at the intersection of Jefferson and Marsalis. The transfer was stamped for 1:00 making it good until 1:15 (or the next available bus).
Myers asks: "Had Oswald already been to the bus stop but was scared off?"
I have now come to believe that Oswald, when he left the rooming house on North Beckley (after grabbing his revolver and jacket), had the destination of the bus stop at Marsalis and Jefferson in his mind. From the rooming house on North Beckley, walking east on Tenth Street toward Marsalis, Oswald was walking the most direct line to the bus stop. Again, his transfer was good at that particular bus stop until 1:15, or the next available bus. In With Malice, Myers states that the Lancaster Road bus was scheduled to arrive at the stop at Jefferson and Marsalis at 1:30 and "would have taken Oswald to Greyhound bus connections through Laredo, TX and on to Mexico".
According to Myers, it was at 1:17:41 when passerby T.F. Bowley got on Tippit's patrol car radio to report to the police dispatcher that a police officer had been shot and killed. The Dallas County Sheriff's Department (no doubt monitoring the city police radio) put out the same information over their airwaves. Shortly after Bowley's report, a Sheriff's Deputy (unit 109) reported to his dispatcher that he was at the intersection of Tenth and Jefferson, just one block east of the bus stop located at Marsalis and Jefferson; the same stop which for Oswald's transfer was good.
Back to the question put forth by Myers. "Had Oswald already been to the bus stop but was scared off?"
Myers' point is that if a Deputy patrol car was near that bus stop shortly AFTER Tippit was shot, then maybe he was there BEFORE the shooting, as well.
Perhaps Oswald first arrived at Tenth and Patton (from the rooming house on his way to the bus stop at Marsalis and Jefferson) at 1:11.
The Secret Service and the FBI reconstructed Oswald's steps (with the help of bus driver Cecil McWatters and cab driver William Whaley) in an attempt to determine the absolute earliest that Oswald could have reached the rooming house.
Based on McWatters' statement of where it was that Oswald boarded the bus (we know Oswald boarded that bus because he had McWatters' specific bus transfer and McWatters said he issued that transfer to only one woman and only one man), Oswald walked about seven blocks east (into the downtown area) after he left the Depository within three minutes of the shooting.
"So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and as she was going out, the gentleman I had picked up about two blocks (back) asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did. It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street." -- Cecil McWatters
They concluded, based on what McWatters told them (along with the Secret Service agents and FBI agents walking the route in an average time of six and a half minutes), that Oswald boarded the bus around 12:40 near the intersection of Field St. and Elm St. and then, after being on the bus for no more than four minutes, Oswald got off the bus near Lamar St. and Elm St. (asking for the transfer as he got off the bus).
So now we have Oswald leaving the bus around 12:44.
Oswald then walked three to four short blocks to the Greyhound station where he boarded Whaley's cab. This has Oswald entering the cab around 12:48.
They then, with Whaley, reconstructed the cab ride from the Greyhound to the intersection of Beckley and Neely (Oswald got out of the cab on Beckley just north of the intersection with Neely). They concluded (using a stopwatch) that the cab ride took five minutes and thirty seconds.
So now we have Oswald exiting Whaley's cab on Beckley at 12:53-12:54.
Still using the stopwatch, they concluded that it was a five minute and forty-five second walk from the point Oswald exited the cab back to the rooming house.
I think Oswald got to the rooming house at 12:59 and was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket (per housekeeper Earlene Roberts) before hurrying out the front door, zipping up the jacket as he went out the door.
In March of 2020, along with Frank Badalson, Fred Litwin, Scott Maudsley and FJ James, I walked from the bus stop outside the rooming house on North Beckley to the intersection of Tenth and Patton and did it in twelve minutes. Therefore, I believe Oswald first arrived at that intersection at 1:11.
About two blocks east of Tenth and Patton, Tenth Street curves drastically to the right before intersecting first with Marsalis and then with Jefferson. If one is walking east on Tenth Street from the spot where Tippit was gunned down, one cannot see any point east of Tenth Street's curve until one actually arrives at that curve. Point being, I believe Sheriff's Deputy unit 109 was near Tenth and Jefferson (remember, unit 109 did report from that location shortly after Tippit was shot) and Oswald, walking east along Tenth with the goal of reaching the bus stop at Marsalis and Jefferson, only notices this patrol car once he reaches the curve on Tenth Street. Before reaching the curve on Tenth Street, Oswald could not have seen anything east of that curve. I believe Oswald's goal was to walk east on Tenth to Marsalis and then south on Marsalis to Jefferson where the bus stop was located. I believe he reached this curve on Tenth and once he was able to see several blocks to the east, he sees unit 109 in the area three short blocks down on Tenth.
Oswald has been on foot, bus and taxi for the past forty plus minutes. He has no idea if his face has been plastered all over television or if his name was put out over the police radio airwaves by this point (after all, he did leave his rifle behind and was missing from the building from where the President was shot). Oswald has now reached the curve along Tenth and sees unit 109 a few blocks down. Not wanting to chance walking any closer to this Deputy patrol car and having his face recognized, Oswald simply reverses direction, now walking west on Tenth and back to where he had just came from. Incidentally, Oswald being worried that his face and/or name has already been put out there for the world to see most likely had a lot to do with why he was so quick to gun down Tippit once Tippit got out of the patrol car.
The first intersection Oswald would then come to is Tenth and Denver. Bill Smith and Jimmy Burt were out in the front yard of the house on the northeast corner of that intersection. Burt said he saw a man walking west along Tenth, cross over Denver and continue along Tenth (Al Chapman interview with Jimmy Burt, 1968). Shortly after seeing this man walking, Burt said he and Smith noticed a police car pull alongside a man who was walking on the sidewalk almost down to the next intersection (Tenth and Patton). Burt said this was the same man he had seen moments earlier walking west on Tenth. Burt stated that they were about to go inside the house when they heard the gun shots. Smith testified to the Warren Commission that he saw Tippit fall.
On SaPersonay May 4, 2024, I was in Oak Cliff, TX with Frank Badalson and Dave Ledbetter. The purpose of this particular visit to Oak Cliff was to perform time trials of the movements of Lee Oswald (as well as Burt and Smith). We wanted to try to get into Oswald's head as to where he was heading both before encountering Patrolman J.D. Tippit and after murdering Tippit.
With a digital stopwatch, Frank Badalson timed me walking from the spot where Oswald stood as he shot Tippit, east along Tenth Street, crossing over Denver and stopping at the point where Tenth Street makes it's drastic curve. Walking at a pretty good clip (after all, I assume Oswald was walking with a purpose) but not running, I reached the curve in two minutes and eight seconds. Therefore, it would take four minutes and sixteen seconds to get from the spot where Oswald was standing when he fired the shots to the curve and then back to encounter Tippit. So, as noted earlier, if Oswald originally arrived at Tenth and Patton at 1:11:00, then he encounters Tippit at 1:15:16.
This explains how Oswald comes to be seen walking WEST on Tenth Street, being at the shooting scene in time to shoot Tippit without having to actually have come from Marsalis (coming from Marsalis would have made it nearly impossible to get to the shooting scene in time).
Allowing for a brief fifteen second conversation between Tippit and Oswald, I walked and then trotted (per Domingo Benavides' Warren Commission testimony) from the spot Oswald was standing when he fired the shots to the corner of Tenth and Patton. This took a fraction over nineteen seconds. So we have Oswald cutting through the front yard of the Davis house on the corner at 1:15:50.
From the corner, I then did a slow run down Patton (per Ted Callaway's 11/22/63 affidavit) to Jefferson. This took fifty-nine seconds (after also noting the spot where Oswald was when Callaway hollered out to him, which took me thirty seconds to reach). So we have Oswald reaching Patton and Jefferson at 1:16:49.
Next, I walked west along Jefferson (per Warren Reynolds' Warren Commission testimony) to the location of the Ballew's Texaco Station (now Santos Muffler). It took me one minute and eleven seconds from the corner of Patton and Jefferson to the Texaco. I went around to the back of the Texaco to the site where Oswald ditched his jacket. This took twenty-two seconds. So we have Oswald in the parking lot behind the Texaco ditching his jacket at 1:18:22.
Bowley has already reported the shooting on the patrol car radio to the police dispatcher (Murray Jackson) and the ambulance would be dispatched from the Dudley-Hughes Funeral Home directly across the street from the Texaco station in another thirty-seven seconds (1:18:59).
From the spot of the jacket dump, I walked west to where the alley meets Crawford. This took nine seconds. So Oswald is in the alley where it meets Crawford at 1:18:31.
Oswald is last seen in the alley behind the Texaco station by Burt and Smith. So Badalson, Ledbetter and myself decided to do a time trial for Burt and Smith. In the 1968 interview, Burt told Chapman that after the shooting, from the front yard of the house at Tenth and Denver, they went to the scene of the shooting, stayed momentarily (he never said just how long exactly) and then took off on foot in search of the killer. They had seen him go to the corner of Tenth and Patton and turn south down Patton. Burt told Chapman that they had it in their minds to go all the way down to Jefferson but when they got halfway down Patton, they looked west along the alley and noticed the man in the alley "almost down to the next street". This puts the killer in the alley behind the Texaco at the point where the alley meets Crawford.
I wanted to see how the Burt/Smith timeline (which has them going from their front yard almost one block east of the shooting scene to the shooting scene and then halfway down Patton to the alley where they would see the killer in the alley almost down to the next block) compares to the Oswald timeline at the point when Oswald is in the alley behind the Texaco.
Remember, our time trials have Oswald behind the Texaco where the alley meets Crawford at 1:18:31.
From the Burt/Smith front yard at Tenth and Denver, I did a fast walk/slow trot to the spot where Tippit fell on the street. Trying to get into the minds of Burt and Smith, I would definitely walk very fast, even trot, to the spot where the police officer was lying in the street (once I saw the killer disappear around the corner). I continued on the Burt/Smith route to the corner of Tenth and Patton and then halfway down Patton to the alley. Total time from the Burt/Smith front yard to where the alley meets Patton was two minutes and fourteen seconds. Recall, our timeline has Oswald disappearing around the corner after firing the shots at 1:15:50. If Burt and Smith left the front yard immediately, with no "hanging around time" near the shooting scene, they reach the point where the alley meets Patton at 1:18:04. Recall, we have Oswald in the alley behind the Texaco at 1:18:31. For this to fit, Burt and Smith hang around the shooting scene for about twenty-seven seconds before taking off after the killer. It makes sense that they wouldn't have hung around the shooting scene for long, for once you've hung around too long, there's no sense in taking off on foot in search of the killer.
Next, we wanted to get into the mind of Oswald and where he would go after ditching the jacket behind the Texaco station (and how long it would take him to get there). The point where the alley meets Crawford is halfway up Crawford between Jefferson and Tenth. To orient ourselves, Oswald is on the sidewalk where the alley meets Crawford and he can go in three directions; up Crawford to Tenth, down Crawford to Jefferson, or west through the alley on the other side of Crawford. We concluded that he certainly would not go back up to Tenth Street. He had just shot a police officer on Tenth Street less than one and a half blocks back to the east. We also decided that he wouldn't have went down to Jefferson. It was a very busy street (certainly one of the busiest in Oak Cliff) and both Robert Brock (a mechanic) and Mary Brock (Robert's wife) had seen him run past them in front of the Texaco station right there on Jefferson moments earlier. Also, Oswald was followed along Jefferson by both Warren Reynolds and Pat Patterson, who were at the Johnnie Reynolds Motor Co. at the corner of Jefferson and Patton. Was Oswald aware that the two men were following him from a safe distance? Why chance it? So we were left to conclude that Oswald fled west through the alley that runs parallel between Jefferson and Tenth.
Next, from the alley's entrance with Crawford (after ditching the jacket), going west in the alley (assuming Oswald was walking fast but not running so as to not draw attention to himself), it took us one minute and forty-two seconds through the alley to reach Storey Street. This has Oswald in the alley at Storey at 1:20:13.
We stayed in the alley walking west toward Cumberland Street. It took us one minute and thirty-five seconds to reach Cumberland. So Oswald has reached the alley's entrance with Cumberland at 1:21:48.
Proceeding further west along the alley for another block, we came to Beckley Avenue. It took us forty-eight seconds to reach Beckley from Cumberland. So we have Oswald at the alley's entrance with Beckley at 1:22:36.
Now, we know that at some point Oswald has to get down to Jefferson to be seen by Johnny Brewer out in front of Hardy's Shoes. Who knows when Oswald decided to hide inside the Texas Theater. My personal theory is that he didn't really know where he was going (more on this in a moment) as long as it was west, west and more west (further and further away from the Tippit shooting scene). You just shot a police officer. You headed west immediately after shooting him. Obviously then, you're going to keep going west. Right?
From the alley's entrance with Beckley, still walking west through the alley, we reached Zang Boulevard in one minute and fifty-seven seconds. This would have Oswald at the alley's entrance with Zang at 1:24:33.
I don't believe Oswald considered the theater until he reached Zang. My own personal opinion is that Oswald arrived at Zang and remembered that the theater is just a half block from Zang and Jefferson. From the alley's entrance with Zang, we turned left (south) onto Zang to Jefferson and then right (west) onto Jefferson and then to the recessed entrance of 213 West Jefferson Boulevard, what used to be Hardy's Shoe Store. This trek (from the alley's entrance on Zang to Hardy's Shoe Store) took us one minute and thirty-nine seconds. This has Oswald standing in the recessed area of Hardy's Shoe Store at 1:26:12.
Johnny Brewer testified that Oswald ducked into the shoe store's "lobby" when one of the police cars, sirens blaring, was on Jefferson coming from the east heading west (toward the shoe store). Brewer testified that the police car made a U-turn at Zang (before ever reaching the shoe store). This is when Oswald left the shoe store lobby and proceeded west along Jefferson toward the theater. Brewer said he could still hear the sirens as the police car was heading away.
We lingered in the shoe store "lobby" for what we considered a reasonable amount of time (to account for Oswald stepping inside to avoid the approaching police car) and then we walked from the lobby entrance of 213 West Jefferson (the shoe store, now a quinceañera/bridal dress shop) to the Texas Theater's entrance and turned off of the sidewalk into the theater's entrance. This took us one minute and fifty-one seconds. So, according to our time trials, Oswald enters the Texas Theater at 1:28:03.
Now....
Again, Brewer told the Warren Commission that once the police car made it's U-turn on Jefferson at Zang, that is when Oswald left the shoe store lobby to head toward the theater. The patrol car was now heading away from Oswald's location. So what would make the police car, with sirens blaring, make a sudden U-turn on Jefferson? You have to remember, the Dallas Police were frantically searching for the cop-killer. Many were about to enter the Abundant Life Temple (the backside of the building butted up against the alley located behind the Texaco Station where the killer was last seen headed; per Robert and Mary Brock). At 1:35, the police dispatcher puts out that the suspect is cornered at the Jefferson Branch Library. The law enforcement personnel who were about to enter the Abundant Life Temple made a beeline for the library. This certainly would cause a patrol car cruising west on Jefferson toward Zang (the opposite direction as the library) to make an immediate U-turn and head directly to the library located on Jefferson back to the east.
The patrol car, cruising at a normal clip west on Jefferson, was undoubtedly looking for the cop-killer walking the streets. This officer probably crossed the intersection with Beckley with the sirens off; he had no reason for the sirens to be blaring at this point. It is only after he crossed Beckley that the call comes through over the police radio that the suspect is cornered at the library. This is when the officer, having not yet reached Jefferson's intersection with Zang, turns on the sirens in order to make his U-turn at the next intersection (Zang). Oswald, about three-quarters of a block down, suddenly hears the loud sirens and steps into the nearest store entrance, which happened to be the shoe store that Brewer was working.
Also, the 1:35 dispatch call to the library synchronizes up with Julia Postal (the ticket lady at the Texas Theater) hearing the announcement of JFK's death made over KLIF radio at 1:35, stepping out from the ticket booth and seeing Oswald approaching from the east.
It's these TWO events (the library dispatch call and the KLIF radio announcement) that pin down the time Oswald leaves Hardy's Shoe Store.
Getting back to my opinion that Oswald really did not have any idea where he was going as he proceeded west through the alleys. I believe Oswald stopped at least once or twice (while in the alleys) to gather his thoughts, to think about where to go and what to do next, taking nine minutes total of "hiding out" time in the alleys. The reason I believe this to be true is because he was in no hurry; he was not heading straight to the theater. If Oswald headed straight for the theater (from the Tippit shooting scene) without stopping, then he would have arrived at the shoe store on Jefferson well before 1:35 when a police car, sirens blaring, had reason to make it's sudden U-turn on Jefferson just a half block from the shoe store.
I believe Oswald entered the Texas Theater at 1:37. Sergeant Gerald Hill reported to the dispatcher that Oswald was arrested and they were en route to the police station at 1:52.
Recall that our time trials have Oswald ducking into the lobby of the shoe store at 1:26:12. However, at 1:35/1:36, the police begin racing to the library on Jefferson. This discrepancy suggests (to me anyway) that Oswald hid out in the alleys for nine minutes total and in reality, arrived at the shoe store "lobby" at 1:35/1:36. Because of these time trials performed by myself, Frank Badalson and Dave Ledbetter, along with the information provided by Dale Myers regarding the 1:35 dispatch broadcast, I wholeheartedly believe that Oswald hid out in the alleys for nine minutes.
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Very interesting and informative Bill, thanks! I have wondered if LHO could have (from the bus stop in front of the rooming house) taken the street (E. 5th Street) that runs adjacent to and just south of the park over to Marsalis and walked south on Marsailis to 10th Street. It seems to me that if LHO realized that he needed to be on Marsailis in order to use his transfer, then he might have thought that the 1:15 time of expiration might happen before he could get there and catch a bus at the stop at Marsailis and Jefferson. And that if he was walking along on Marsailis and a bus had already passed the stop at Jefferson, that he might be able to flag it down (like he managed to do on Elm Street a bit earlier). Just a thought, but if you do any more time trials, I would be interested in how long it takes to go that route and if it fits the other criteria.
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Very interesting and informative Bill, thanks! I have wondered if LHO could have (from the bus stop in front of the rooming house) taken the street (E. 5th Street) that runs adjacent to and just south of the park over to Marsalis and walked south on Marsailis to 10th Street. It seems to me that if LHO realized that he needed to be on Marsailis in order to use his transfer, then he might have thought that the 1:15 time of expiration might happen before he could get there and catch a bus at the stop at Marsailis and Jefferson. And that if he was walking along on Marsailis and a bus had already passed the stop at Jefferson, that he might be able to flag it down (like he managed to do on Elm Street a bit earlier). Just a thought, but if you do any more time trials, I would be interested in how long it takes to go that route and if it fits the other criteria.
Thanks Charles. I've never considered the route you mention. Keep in mind, going down Beckley to Davis to Patton to Tenth to Marsalis to Jefferson (the bus stop was at the corner of Marsalis and Jefferson) is a more direct route than Beckley to Fifth to Marsalis to Jefferson. For what it's worth.
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Thanks Charles. I've never considered the route you mention. Keep in mind, going down Beckley to Davis to Patton to Tenth to Marsalis to Jefferson (the bus stop was at the corner of Marsalis and Jefferson) is a more direct route than Beckley to Fifth to Marsalis to Jefferson. For what it's worth.
Yes, I seem to remember measuring the distances on Google Maps and finding the difference to me minimal. I will try to do that again soon. Thanks.
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Author Dale Myers (With Malice - Lee Harvey Oswald and the Murder of Officer J.D. Tippit) puts forth the idea that Lee Oswald was walking east on Tenth Street toward the area of Marsalis and Jefferson. Oswald had a bus transfer in his pocket and the only bus stop in the entire Oak Cliff area which this transfer was good for was the bus stop at the intersection of Jefferson and Marsalis. The transfer was stamped for 1:00 making it good until 1:15 (or the next available bus).
Myers asks: "Had Oswald already been to the bus stop but was scared off?"
I have now come to believe that Oswald, when he left the rooming house on North Beckley (after grabbing his revolver and jacket), had the destination of the bus stop at Marsalis and Jefferson in his mind. From the rooming house on North Beckley, walking east on Tenth Street toward Marsalis, Oswald was walking the most direct line to the bus stop. Again, his transfer was good at that particular bus stop until 1:15, or the next available bus. In With Malice, Myers states that the Lancaster Road bus was scheduled to arrive at the stop at Jefferson and Marsalis at 1:30 and "would have taken Oswald to Greyhound bus connections through Laredo, TX and on to Mexico".
According to Myers, it was at 1:17:41 when passerby T.F. Bowley got on Tippit's patrol car radio to report to the police dispatcher that a police officer had been shot and killed. The Dallas County Sheriff's Department (no doubt monitoring the city police radio) put out the same information over their airwaves. Shortly after Bowley's report, a Sheriff's Deputy (unit 109) reported to his dispatcher that he was at the intersection of Tenth and Jefferson, just one block east of the bus stop located at Marsalis and Jefferson; the same stop which for Oswald's transfer was good.
Back to the question put forth by Myers. "Had Oswald already been to the bus stop but was scared off?"
Myers' point is that if a Deputy patrol car was near that bus stop shortly AFTER Tippit was shot, then maybe he was there BEFORE the shooting, as well.
Perhaps Oswald first arrived at Tenth and Patton (from the rooming house on his way to the bus stop at Marsalis and Jefferson) at 1:11.
The Secret Service and the FBI reconstructed Oswald's steps (with the help of bus driver Cecil McWatters and cab driver William Whaley) in an attempt to determine the absolute earliest that Oswald could have reached the rooming house.
Based on McWatters' statement of where it was that Oswald boarded the bus (we know Oswald boarded that bus because he had McWatters' specific bus transfer and McWatters said he issued that transfer to only one woman and only one man), Oswald walked about seven blocks east (into the downtown area) after he left the Depository within three minutes of the shooting.
"So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and as she was going out, the gentleman I had picked up about two blocks (back) asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did. It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street." -- Cecil McWatters
They concluded, based on what McWatters told them (along with the Secret Service agents and FBI agents walking the route in an average time of six and a half minutes), that Oswald boarded the bus around 12:40 near the intersection of Field St. and Elm St. and then, after being on the bus for no more than four minutes, Oswald got off the bus near Lamar St. and Elm St. (asking for the transfer as he got off the bus).
So now we have Oswald leaving the bus around 12:44.
Oswald then walked three to four short blocks to the Greyhound station where he boarded Whaley's cab. This has Oswald entering the cab around 12:48.
They then, with Whaley, reconstructed the cab ride from the Greyhound to the intersection of Beckley and Neely (Oswald got out of the cab on Beckley just north of the intersection with Neely). They concluded (using a stopwatch) that the cab ride took five minutes and thirty seconds.
So now we have Oswald exiting Whaley's cab on Beckley at 12:53-12:54.
Still using the stopwatch, they concluded that it was a five minute and forty-five second walk from the point Oswald exited the cab back to the rooming house.
I think Oswald got to the rooming house at 12:59 and was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket (per housekeeper Earlene Roberts) before hurrying out the front door, zipping up the jacket as he went out the door.
In March of 2020, along with Frank Badalson, Fred Litwin, Scott Maudsley and FJ James, I walked from the bus stop outside the rooming house on North Beckley to the intersection of Tenth and Patton and did it in twelve minutes. Therefore, I believe Oswald first arrived at that intersection at 1:11.
About two blocks east of Tenth and Patton, Tenth Street curves drastically to the right before intersecting first with Marsalis and then with Jefferson. If one is walking east on Tenth Street from the spot where Tippit was gunned down, one cannot see any point east of Tenth Street's curve until one actually arrives at that curve. Point being, I believe Sheriff's Deputy unit 109 was near Tenth and Jefferson (remember, unit 109 did report from that location shortly after Tippit was shot) and Oswald, walking east along Tenth with the goal of reaching the bus stop at Marsalis and Jefferson, only notices this patrol car once he reaches the curve on Tenth Street. Before reaching the curve on Tenth Street, Oswald cold not have seen anything east of that curve. I believe Oswald's goal was to walk east on Tenth to Marsalis and then south on Marsalis to Jefferson where the bus stop was located. I believe he reached this curve on Tenth and once he was able to see several blocks to the east, he sees unit 109 in the area three short blocks down on Tenth.
Oswald has been on foot, bus and taxi for the past forty plus minutes. He has no idea if his face has been plastered all over television or if his name was put out over the police radio airwaves by this point (after all, he did leave his rifle behind and was missing from the building from where the President was shot). Oswald has now reached the curve along Tenth and sees unit 109 a few blocks down. Not wanting to chance walking any closer to this Deputy patrol car and having his face recognized, Oswald simply reverses direction, now walking west on Tenth and back to where he had just came from. Incidentally, Oswald being worried that his face and/or name has already been put out there for the world to see most likely had a lot to do with why he was so quick to gun down Tippit once Tippit got out of the patrol car.
The first intersection Oswald would then come to is Tenth and Denver. Bill Smith and Jimmy Burt were out in the front yard of the house on the northeast corner of that intersection. Burt said he saw a man walking west along Tenth, cross over Denver and continue along Tenth (Al Chapman interview with Jimmy Burt, 1968). Shortly after seeing this man walking, Burt said he and Smith noticed a police car pull alongside a man who was walking on the sidewalk almost down to the next intersection (Tenth and Patton). Burt said this was the same man he had seen moments earlier walking west on Tenth. Burt stated that they were about to go inside the house when they heard the gun shots. Smith testified to the Warren Commission that he saw Tippit fall.
On SaPersonay May 4, 2024, I was in Oak Cliff, TX with Frank Badalson and Dave Ledbetter. The purpose of this particular visit to Oak Cliff was to perform time trials of the movements of Lee Oswald (as well as Burt and Smith). We wanted to try to get into Oswald's head as to where he was heading both before encountering Patrolman J.D. Tippit and after murdering Tippit.
With a digital stopwatch, Frank Badalson timed me walking from the spot where Oswald stood as he shot Tippit, east along Tenth Street, crossing over Denver and stopping at the point where Tenth Street makes it's drastic curve. Walking at a pretty good clip (after all, I assume Oswald was walking with a purpose) but not running, I reached the curve in two minutes and eight seconds. Therefore, it would take four minutes and sixteen seconds to get from the spot where Oswald was standing when he fired the shots to the curve and then back to encounter Tippit. So, as noted earlier, if Oswald originally arrived at Tenth and Patton at 1:11:00, then he encounters Tippit at 1:15:16.
This explains how Oswald comes to be seen walking WEST on Tenth Street, being at the shooting scene in time to shoot Tippit without having to actually have come from Marsalis (coming from Marsalis would have made it nearly impossible to get to the shooting scene in time).
Allowing for a brief fifteen second conversation between Tippit and Oswald, I walked and then trotted (per Domingo Benavides' Warren Commission testimony) from the spot Oswald was standing when he fired the shots to the corner of Tenth and Patton. This took a fraction over nineteen seconds. So we have Oswald cutting through the front yard of the Davis house on the corner at 1:15:50.
From the corner, I then did a slow run down Patton (per Ted Callaway's 11/22/63 affidavit) to Jefferson. This took fifty-nine seconds (after also noting the spot where Oswald was when Callaway hollered out to him, which took me thirty seconds to reach). So we have Oswald reaching Patton and Jefferson at 1:16:49.
Next, I walked west along Jefferson (per Warren Reynolds' Warren Commission testimony) to the location of the Ballew's Texaco Station (now Santos Muffler). It took me one minute and eleven seconds from the corner of Patton and Jefferson to the Texaco. I went around to the back of the Texaco to the site where Oswald ditched his jacket. This took twenty-two seconds. So we have Oswald in the parking lot behind the Texaco ditching his jacket at 1:18:22.
Bowley has already reported the shooting on the patrol car radio to the police dispatcher (Murray Jackson) and the ambulance would be dispatched from the Dudley-Hughes Funeral Home directly across the street from the Texaco station in another thirty-seven seconds (1:18:59).
From the spot of the jacket dump, I walked west to where the alley meets Crawford. This took nine seconds. So Oswald is in the alley where it meets Crawford at 1:18:31.
Oswald is last seen in the alley behind the Texaco station by Burt and Smith. So Badalson, Ledbetter and myself decided to do a time trial for Burt and Smith. In the 1968 interview, Burt told Chapman that after the shooting, from the front yard of the house at Tenth and Denver, they went to the scene of the shooting, stayed momentarily (he never said just how long exactly) and then took off on foot in search of the killer. They had seen him go to the corner of Tenth and Patton and turn south down Patton. Burt told Chapman that they had it in their minds to go all the way down to Jefferson but when they got halfway down Patton, they looked west along the alley and noticed the man in the alley "almost down to the next street". This puts the killer in the alley behind the Texaco at the point where the alley meets Crawford.
I wanted to see how the Burt/Smith timeline (which has them going from their front yard almost one block east of the shooting scene to the shooting scene and then halfway down Patton to the alley where they would see the killer in the alley almost down to the next block) compares to the Oswald timeline at the point when Oswald is in the alley behind the Texaco.
Remember, our time trials have Oswald behind the Texaco where the alley meets Crawford at 1:18:31.
From the Burt/Smith front yard at Tenth and Denver, I did a fast walk/slow trot to the spot where Tippit fell on the street. Trying to get into the minds of Burt and Smith, I would definitely walk very fast, even trot, to the spot where the police officer was lying in the street (once I saw the killer disappear around the corner). I continued on the Burt/Smith route to the corner of Tenth and Patton and then halfway down Patton to the alley. Total time from the Burt/Smith front yard to where the alley meets Patton was two minutes and fourteen seconds. Recall, our timeline has Oswald disappearing around the corner after firing the shots at 1:15:50. If Burt and Smith left the front yard immediately, with no "hanging around time" near the shooting scene, they reach the point where the alley meets Patton at 1:18:04. Recall, we have Oswald in the alley behind the Texaco at 1:18:31. For this to fit, Burt and Smith hang around the shooting scene for about twenty-seven seconds before taking off after the killer. It makes sense that they wouldn't have hung around the shooting scene for long, for once you've hung around too long, there's no sense in taking off on foot in search of the killer.
Next, we wanted to get into the mind of Oswald and where he would go after ditching the jacket behind the Texaco station (and how long it would take him to get there). The point where the alley meets Crawford is halfway up Crawford between Jefferson and Tenth. To orient ourselves, Oswald is on the sidewalk where the alley meets Crawford and he can go in three directions; up Crawford to Tenth, down Crawford to Jefferson, or west through the alley on the other side of Crawford. We concluded that he certainly would not go back up to Tenth Street. He had just shot a police officer on Tenth Street less than one and a half blocks back to the east. We also decided that he wouldn't have went down to Jefferson. It was a very busy street (certainly one of the busiest in Oak Cliff) and both Robert Brock (a mechanic) and Mary Brock (Robert's wife) had seen him run past them in front of the Texaco station right there on Jefferson moments earlier. Also, Oswald was followed along Jefferson by both Warren Reynolds and Pat Patterson, who were at the Johnnie Reynolds Motor Co. at the corner of Jefferson and Patton. Was Oswald aware that the two men were following him from a safe distance? Why chance it? So we were left to conclude that Oswald fled west through the alley that runs parallel between Jefferson and Tenth.
Next, from the alley's entrance with Crawford (after ditching the jacket), going west in the alley (assuming Oswald was walking fast but not running so as to not draw attention to himself), it took us one minute and forty-two seconds through the alley to reach Storey Street. This has Oswald in the alley at Storey at 1:20:13.
We stayed in the alley walking west toward Cumberland Street. It took us one minute and thirty-five seconds to reach Cumberland. So Oswald has reached the alley's entrance with Cumberland at 1:21:48.
Proceeding further west along the alley for another block, we came to Beckley Avenue. It took us forty-eight seconds to reach Beckley from Cumberland. So we have Oswald at the alley's entrance with Beckley at 1:22:36.
Now, we know that at some point Oswald has to get down to Jefferson to be seen by Johnny Brewer out in front of Hardy's Shoes. Who knows when Oswald decided to hide inside the Texas Theater. My personal theory is that he didn't really know where he was going (more on this in a moment) as long as it was west, west and more west (further and further away from the Tippit shooting scene). You just shot a police officer. You headed west immediately after shooting him. Obviously then, you're going to keep going west. Right?
From the alley's entrance with Beckley, still walking west through the alley, we reached Zang Boulevard in one minute and fifty-seven seconds. This would have Oswald at the alley's entrance with Zang at 1:24:33.
I don't believe Oswald considered the theater until he reached Zang. My own personal opinion is that Oswald arrived at Zang and remembered that the theater is just a half block from Zang and Jefferson. From the alley's entrance with Zang, we turned left (south) onto Zang to Jefferson and then right (west) onto Jefferson and then to the recessed entrance of 213 West Jefferson Boulevard, what used to be Hardy's Shoe Store. This trek (from the alley's entrance on Zang to Hardy's Shoe Store) took us one minute and thirty-nine seconds. This has Oswald standing in the recessed area of Hardy's Shoe Store at 1:26:12.
Johnny Brewer testified that Oswald ducked into the shoe store's "lobby" when one of the police cars, sirens blaring, was on Jefferson coming from the east heading west (toward the shoe store). Brewer testified that the police car made a U-turn at Zang (before ever reaching the shoe store). This is when Oswald left the shoe store lobby and proceeded west along Jefferson toward the theater. Brewer said he could still hear the sirens as the police car was heading away.
We lingered in the shoe store "lobby" for what we considered a reasonable amount of time (to account for Oswald stepping inside to avoid the approaching police car) and then we walked from the lobby entrance of 213 West Jefferson (the shoe store, now a quinceañera/bridal dress shop) to the Texas Theater's entrance and turned off of the sidewalk into the theater's entrance. This took us one minute and fifty-one seconds. So, according to our time trials, Oswald enters the Texas Theater at 1:28:03.
Now....
Again, Brewer told the Warren Commission that once the police car made it's U-turn on Jefferson at Zang, that is when Oswald left the shoe store lobby to head toward the theater. The patrol car was now heading away from Oswald's location. So what would make the police car, with sirens blaring, make a sudden U-turn on Jefferson? You have to remember, the Dallas Police were frantically searching for the cop-killer. Many were about to enter the Abundant Life Temple (the backside of the building butted up against the alley located behind the Texaco Station where the killer was last seen headed; per Robert and Mary Brock). At 1:35, the police dispatcher puts out that the suspect is cornered at the Jefferson Branch Library. The law enforcement personnel who were about to enter the Abundant Life Temple made a beeline for the library. This certainly would cause a patrol car cruising west on Jefferson toward Zang (the opposite direction as the library) to make an immediate U-turn and head directly to the library located on Jefferson back to the east.
The patrol car, cruising at a normal clip west on Jefferson, was undoubtedly looking for the cop-killer walking the streets. This officer probably crossed the intersection with Beckley with the sirens off; he had no reason for the sirens to be blaring at this point. It is only after he crossed Beckley that the call comes through over the police radio that the suspect is cornered at the library. This is when the officer, having not yet reached Jefferson's intersection with Zang, turns on the sirens in order to make his U-turn at the next intersection (Zang). Oswald, about three-quarters of a block down, suddenly hears the loud sirens and steps into the nearest store entrance, which happened to be the shoe store that Brewer was working.
Also, the 1:35 dispatch call to the library synchronizes up with Julia Postal (the ticket lady at the Texas Theater) hearing the announcement of JFK's death made over KLIF radio at 1:35, stepping out from the ticket booth and seeing Oswald approaching from the east.
It's these TWO events (the library dispatch call and the KLIF radio announcement) that pin down the time Oswald leaves Hardy's Shoe Store.
Getting back to my opinion that Oswald really did not have any idea where he was going as he proceeded west through the alleys. I believe Oswald stopped at least once or twice (while in the alleys) to gather his thoughts, to think about where to go and what to do next, taking nine minutes total of "hiding out" time in the alleys. The reason I believe this to be true is because he was in no hurry; he was not heading straight to the theater. If Oswald headed straight for the theater (from the Tippit shooting scene) without stopping, then he would have arrived at the shoe store on Jefferson well before 1:35 when a police car, sirens blaring, had reason to make it's sudden U-turn on Jefferson just a half block from the shoe store.
I believe Oswald entered the Texas Theater at 1:37. Sergeant Gerald Hill reported to the dispatcher that Oswald was arrested and they were en route to the police station at 1:52.
Recall that our time trials have Oswald ducking into the lobby of the shoe store at 1:26:12. However, at 1:35/1:36, the police begin racing to the library on Jefferson. This discrepancy suggests (to me anyway) that Oswald hid out in the alleys for nine minutes total and in reality, arrived at the shoe store "lobby" at 1:35/1:36. Because of these time trials performed by myself, Frank Badalson and Dave Ledbetter, along with the information provided by Dale Myers regarding the 1:35 dispatch broadcast, I wholeheartedly believe that Oswald hid out in the alleys for nine minutes.
"I think Oswald got to the rooming house at 12:59 and was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket (per housekeeper Earlene Roberts) before hurrying out the front door, zipping up the jacket as he went out the door." Bill
12.59 is pretty close to the mark for sure . but AS YOU KNOW Roberts said more about Oswalds Return than you mention . while she said he was hurried when he came home , she also elaborated and said that he was 3 or 4 minutes in his room . she was watching tv or trying to as he came in , looking for news of JFK . she said that while he was in his room that she heard a car horn toot , she went to the window and looked out , and saw a police car there , which then drove away . as i recall , my memory tells me from a past conversation with you (i will be kind to you ) that you shall we say DISPUTE her in this matter as she only mentioned this some days later . in addition she said that a moment or so AFTER he (Oswald ) left that she went to her window AGAIN and looked out . she said he was STILL outside standing at the bus stop , and that he did not leave while she was watching .now i am not saying all this is a huge amount of time but we must consider all this and add all this time to any honest time trial .
realistically he could still have been stood on beckley at a time upwards of 5 minutes after he arrived home , as Roberts left the window while he was still standing outside we cant say with accuracy when he left the bus stop .
all of the above being said Roberts is another LN witness , one of those regularly cited by LN as a reliable witness , to show Oswald arrived home hurriedly and then left quickly wearing A JACKET . she is also cited as a visual witness IE for seeing what he wore or did not wear as the case may be . while at the same time LN have in my experience attacked her as a witness . stating in essence that she invented the police car outside story . and that she was near to blind due to being diabetic so her sighting of Oswald at the bus stop is deemed questionable at best . this is another case of LN wanting it both ways really , both citing a witness as reliable while later attacking that reliability if they say something LN dont care for .
Oswald was recorded and is on record stating that he changed his shirt and slacks , and placed the dirty clothing in a drawer .this clothing was removed from the drawer by the police , we know this as there was an inventory taken of everything removed form the room .LN dont really care for this as it creates problems . one being it adds more time to Oswalds stay at the rooming house , which would be more inline with Roberts saying he stayed 3 or 4 minutes in his room . any added time makes the task of getting Oswald to 10th and patton even more difficult if not impossible .which is why we so often see LN having Oswald arrive pre 1pm and leaving all most immediately on his way to 10th street , which is not what Roberts said he did .in addition if Oswald changed his shirt and slacks at his rooming house that creates a major problem . because it would mean he was not wearing the BROWN shirt he was arrested in AT WORK that tragic day .he could not have worn it at 12.30 in the snipers nest , and left fresh fibers from it on the rifle at 12.30 in the snipers nest on elm street , IF HE ONLY PUT IT ON AT 1PM IN HIS ROOM AT BECKLEY .
my point being these are things we need to address not avoid or ignore .
also regarding the time line here what about theater witnesses ? witnesses who place Oswald inside the theater at a time your time line and Myers has him killing Tippit and hiding in an alley way ? . we should just do a Bugliosi i guess on all this stuff WE KNOW OSWALD DID IT , SO WE CAN IGNORE ANY PROBLEM THAT MIGHT CONTRADICT THAT NOTION right ? . of course Oswald could have done all that you state in this time line but it is at the least questionable .we should also mention again (as it is relevant to Myers ) that Mr myers went on record and is on record having said that he could prove to a reasonable doubt that Oswald was guilty of neither killing . but the grass is GREENER on the LN side of the fence as he found out .how much was he paid for that SBT theory animation ? .
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It's a Matter of Time
https://jfk.boards.net/post/3903/thread
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Great post Bill. Nothing like going back to the actual scene. A couple of points stand out to me. Oswald was certainly acting as though he believed that he could already have been identified as a suspect by the time he is in the cab. Getting out of the cab a distance away confirms that. He had good reason to do so since he knew he was already a person known to the FBI as a political nut. For all he knew, they had connected the dots. A police officer had already pulled a gun on him. He was missing from the crime scene - his place of work. He had good cause to believe the authorities were on to him. That has implications for shooting Tippit. Oswald can't identify himself to Tippit if he thinks that he is already a suspect. He has to shoot him before it gets to that point. In addition, Oswald's options were limited for escape. He doesn't have much money. No car. What does he know? The bus system. Where has he recently gone on a bus? Mexico. Where is the only place that he could conceivably get asylum? Cuba. Where has he been trying to get to for months for before the assassination? Cuba. Put them all together and the most logical avenue available to Oswald is to take a bus to Mexico, try to get to the Cuban or Russian embassy and ask for asylum. Of course, that's a longshot fantasy on his part but there was no other option. I think Oswald had already accepted the likely outcome of his death or arrest in the commission of the act. After the Tippit encounter, he is just moving in any direction still available and ducking into the TT to get off the street is not a bad idea. He just should have paused to buy a ticket. Like James Earl Ray, it is not impossible that Oswald might have made it out of the country in those days. I can't see Oswald toughing it for long in Mexico but he would be beyond the direct jurisdiction of the American authorities making it more difficult to find him.
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It's a Matter of Time
https://jfk.boards.net/post/3903/thread
excellent posts Michael , thank you for providing them .
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excellent posts Michael , thank you for providing them .
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There is an important point to be made regarding the testimony of Earlene Roberts and how it relates to the timeline of Oswald's movements after leaving the TSBD. In her testimony Roberts appears certain of two things - that Oswald was in a hurry and that he was putting on a zipper jacket when he left. She stresses that at all times Oswald was moving quickly and I think this should be reflected in any calculations regarding his movements. Any time trial I'm aware of usually involves older, out of shape men walking along. I'm unaware of one involving a young fit male double-timing. I'm unaware of one that tries to demonstrate the quickest time possible.
One thing she is NOT certain of is the time Oswald initially entered the rooming house. It is amazing how often Roberts' WC testimony is relied on as gospel regarding this issue but she could hardly have been any more vague about it:
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what time it was approximately that Oswald came in?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, it must have been around 1 o'clock, or maybe a little after, because it was after President Kennedy had been shot-what time I wouldn't want to say because...
This piece of testimony is used endlessly to establish a starting point for Oswald leaving the rooming house.
But look at what she says - she thinks it was around 1:00pm or after because it was after President Kennedy was shot!!
That's like saying that it must have been 1:00pm because it was after 12:30pm!
She finishes off with the phrase "what time I wouldn't want to say". She could hardly be more vague which is in stark contrast to her certainty that Oswald was in a hurry and that he was zipping up a jacket as he left.
It is possible to get a clearer picture of what Roberts was doing leading up to Oswald entering the rooming house. In her WC testimony she states:
"Well, it was after President Kennedy had been shot and I had a friend that said, "Roberts, President Kennedy has been shot," and I said, "Oh, no." She said, "Turn on your television," and I said "What are you trying to do, pull my leg?" And she said, "Well, go turn it on." I went and turned it on and I was trying to clear it up---I could hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture and he come in and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." He never said a thing, not nothing. He went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes."
There is also this interview with Roberts. In the clip below, at 4:37, Roberts begins to explain things from the moment she turned on the TV (presumably after her friend called). She describes watching a program called "As The World Turns" when suddenly a bulletin cut in about the assassination.
So, Roberts is going about her business in the rooming house when she gets a call from one of her friends. Her friend tells her that Kennedy has been shot and that Roberts should turn on the TV to find out what's going on. Roberts turns on the TV and a program called "As The World Turns" is on. She begins to watch this and suddenly a bulletin cuts in about the assassination.
At this point it would appear that something happened to the picture on the TV. Although she had been watching "As The World Turns" with no problem, when the bulletin came on Roberts felt the need to get up and try to fix the TV because she thought something was wrong with it. As she says, "I could hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture". It was while she was up at the TV that Oswald came in.
I would like to suggest there was nothing wrong with the TV. The reason she could here them talking but couldn't get the picture of them talking was because when the bulletin came on there was just this static picture accompanying the broadcaster's voice:
(https://i.postimg.cc/h48fRZnJ/Robertsbulletin.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Roberts doesn't come across as the sharpest tool in the shed and may have expected a live picture of a broadcaster as was usual with a program like the news. Except this wasn't the news, it was a special bulletin. I think this explains why she was watching the TV with no problem until the bulletin came on.
The question I would like to answer is - what time did the bulletin come on that caused Roberts to get up to fix the TV?
To do this we need the actual channel she was watching that day.
The first thing to do is to get a timestamp that connects the time on the video (Video Time = VT) to the time in the real world (Real Time = RT). Just to note, "Real Time" is not some absolute, atomic clock measurement, it is a general estimate. We get this timestamp estimate at 58:50 in the video (58:50 VT) when Walter states that JFK died at 1:00 PM "some thirty eight minutes ago".
Therefore 58:50 on the video [VT] = 1:38 PM in "Real Time" [RT] (obviously this is not to the second, just an approximation. But a close one)
The following analysis of the first part of the video is based on this approximate timestamp.
[VT] 0:00 = 12:39.10 [RT] -- "As The World Turns" is on
[VT] 1:50 = 12:41 [RT] -- The First Bulletin flashes on (this is the one shown in the Roberts interview)
[VT] 2:50 = 12:42 [RT] -- First Bulletin ends, followed by various ads
[VT] 4:57 = 12:44.07 [RT] -- Second Bulletin flashes on
[VT] 7:08 = 12:46.18 [RT] -- Second Bulletin finishes and "As The World Turns" resumes
[VT] 8:50 = 12:48 [RT] -- "As The World Turns" goes into an ad break
[VT] 9:34 = 12:48.44 [RT] -- Third Bulletin begins. This runs continuously until the 1:00 PM news comes on with Walter Cronkite
From this analysis we know the following:
At some point after the first or second bulletin, Roberts' friend (who has seen these bulletins) calls with the news that JFK has been shot and that Roberts should turn on her TV. Roberts turns on the TV sometime after the second bulletin has finished @12:46pm and "As The World Turns" is on. Roberts is watching this channel for no more than a coupe of minutes when the third bulletin comes on @12:49pm. It is at this point that Roberts gets up to "fix" the TV - 12:49pm.
If, as many argue, Oswald doesn't enter the rooming house until 1:00pm, we have a situation where Roberts is stood at the TV for over ten minutes!
I do not think this is feasible. The strong impression I get is that Roberts was not at the TV for long when Oswald came in. I think this puts Oswald's entry into the rooming house comfortably before 12:55pm.
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There is another piece of evidence that indicates Oswald may have been back at the rooming house earlier than usually thought.
William Whaley's ride manifest states that Oswald was picked up between 12:30 and 12:45pm:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zGw7G9w/Whaleymanifest.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This evidence is in harmony with Oswald arriving back at the rooming house as early as 12:55pm.
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Ok I could buy the argument that Oswald might double time AFTER he left the boarding house because he wanted to get to a bus stop before his transfer ticket expired at 1:15.
But is that what an assassin would do?
Seems to me an assassin of JFK who presumably thought the rifle he left behind (leaving no prints on it) which he also thought was untraceable to himself, would not be in any hurry to leave TSBD once he had been cleared by DPD officer Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom 90 seconds post shots.
And would he have walked/ ran 7 blocks to frantically bang on some bus door and then wanted a transfer ticket and then double timed to a Taxi only to be driven to a point 5 blocks away from his boarding house?
These actions seem more like those of someone who was paranoid he was being set up, which may have started soon after the shots fired and was related to the 26” package that he possibly was paid to deliver to the TSBD loading dock annex bldg and where he might have been waiting in the Domino room to meet someone to whom the package would be given, but the person never showed up.
My theory is that Oswald had moved his MC rifle from the Paines garage in Oct 63 to his boarding house, and Oswald was returning in haste to the boarding house because he was paranoid that the rifle had been stolen.
Once Oswald checked his room and the hiding place, and saw the rifle was gone, his paranoia that he was being set up became reality which is why Oswald got his revolver and left the boarding room quickly and why he started double timing after leaving the house to get to a bus stop.
Perhaps Oswald was going to take that bus to the Marsalis Zoo where he could hide out until night and then get on an empty boxcar on the nearby rail line and get out of Dallas.
Or, Oswald could have been heading to Rubys house because he thought Ruby could help him out (especially if Ruby and Oswald were CIA assets).
In either case, Oswald being unexpectedly intercepted by Tippit and shooting Tippit could be due to paranoia rather than because Oswald had shot JFK.
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Ok I could buy the argument that Oswald might double time AFTER he left the boarding house because he wanted to get to a bus stop before his transfer ticket expired at 1:15.
But is that what an assassin would do?
Seems to me an assassin of JFK who presumably thought the rifle he left behind (leaving no prints on it) which he also thought was untraceable to himself, would not be in any hurry to leave TSBD once he had been cleared by DPD officer Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom 90 seconds post shots.
And would he have walked/ ran 7 blocks to frantically bang on some bus door and then wanted a transfer ticket and then double timed to a Taxi only to be driven to a point 5 blocks away from his boarding house?
These actions seem more like those of someone who was paranoid he was being set up, which may have started soon after the shots fired and was related to the 26” package that he possibly was paid to deliver to the TSBD loading dock annex bldg and where he might have been waiting in the Domino room to meet someone to whom the package would be given, but the person never showed up.
My theory is that Oswald had moved his MC rifle from the Paines garage in Oct 63 to his boarding house, and Oswald was returning in haste to the boarding house because he was paranoid that the rifle had been stolen.
Once Oswald checked his room and the hiding place, and saw the rifle was gone, his paranoia that he was being set up became reality which is why Oswald got his revolver and left the boarding room quickly and why he started double timing after leaving the house to get to a bus stop.
Perhaps Oswald was going to take that bus to the Marsalis Zoo where he could hide out until night and then get on an empty boxcar on the nearby rail line and get out of Dallas.
Or, Oswald could have been heading to Rubys house because he thought Ruby could help him out (especially if Ruby and Oswald were CIA assets).
In either case, Oswald being unexpectedly intercepted by Tippit and shooting Tippit could be due to paranoia rather than because Oswald had shot JFK.
Oswald likely couldn't believe his luck when Baker let him go. After that, he is making tracks. Oswald knew he was already a person of interest to the FBI. Once they learned that he worked in the building from which the shots were fired, he was toast. He has a limited window of opportunity and made the most of it. Without a car or much money, he is limited in his options. Of which there were no good ones. Oswald accepted his death or arrest in making the decision to commit this act. That doesn't mean he was just going to sit down and wait for the handcuffs. Like almost every criminal in history, he was going to play out his hand until his luck ran out. That is what he did.
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It’s amazing me how 2 people could be in virtually total agreement concerning which of the 2 US presidential candidates are the better choice, yet be so far apart concerning the JFK assassination 😳
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I believe Oswald removed the spent shell casings from his revolver as he was making his way to the corner of Tenth and Patton in order to have a fully loaded revolver in case another cop was around the corner.
Remember, Dallas Sheriff's Deputy Unit #109 reported that he was very nearby once news of the Tippit shooting went out over the police airwaves. If 109 was nearby AFTERWARDS, he could have been there shortly before. Point being, I believe Oswald saw 109, reversed direction and soon afterwards encountered Tippit. These two "encounters" (if you will) would definitely give Oswald concern to proceed further without a loaded weapon.
If you're Oswald, once you've seen two patrol cars in a matter of two minutes, you'll want to be sure your weapon is fully loaded before turning the next corner.
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I believe Oswald removed the spent shell casings from his revolver as he was making his way to the corner of Tenth and Patton in order to have a fully loaded revolver in case another cop was around the corner.
Remember, Dallas Sheriff's Deputy Unit #109 reported that he was very nearby once news of the Tippit shooting went out over the police airwaves. If 109 was nearby AFTERWARDS, he could have been there shortly before. Point being, I believe Oswald saw 109, reversed direction and soon afterwards encountered Tippit. These two "encounters" (if you will) would definitely give Oswald concern to proceed further without a loaded weapon.
If you're Oswald, once you've seen two patrol cars in a matter of two minutes, you'll want to be sure your weapon is fully loaded before turning the next corner.
And even if he hadn't seen other police cars, Oswald is the most wanted person in the world after assassinating the president and killing a police officer. The logical thing to do is reload his gun and keep moving for as long as possible. There was no viable "plan" at that point. Oswald is just moving in the direction of least resistance.
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Oswald did it.
OJ Simpson was innocent.
Covid came from a bat.
Biden rec'd 81 million votes.
There. Is everyone happy now? ;)
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Great post Bill. Nothing like going back to the actual scene. A couple of points stand out to me. Oswald was certainly acting as though he believed that he could already have been identified as a suspect by the time he is in the cab. Getting out of the cab a distance away confirms that. He had good reason to do so since he knew he was already a person known to the FBI as a political nut. For all he knew, they had connected the dots. A police officer had already pulled a gun on him. He was missing from the crime scene - his place of work. He had good cause to believe the authorities were on to him. That has implications for shooting Tippit. Oswald can't identify himself to Tippit if he thinks that he is already a suspect. He has to shoot him before it gets to that point. In addition, Oswald's options were limited for escape. He doesn't have much money. No car. What does he know? The bus system. Where has he recently gone on a bus? Mexico. Where is the only place that he could conceivably get asylum? Cuba. Where has he been trying to get to for months for before the assassination? Cuba. Put them all together and the most logical avenue available to Oswald is to take a bus to Mexico, try to get to the Cuban or Russian embassy and ask for asylum. Of course, that's a longshot fantasy on his part but there was no other option. I think Oswald had already accepted the likely outcome of his death or arrest in the commission of the act. After the Tippit encounter, he is just moving in any direction still available and ducking into the TT to get off the street is not a bad idea. He just should have paused to buy a ticket. Like James Earl Ray, it is not impossible that Oswald might have made it out of the country in those days. I can't see Oswald toughing it for long in Mexico but he would be beyond the direct jurisdiction of the American authorities making it more difficult to find him.
Great points, Richard. I agree with everything you said above.
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Cool story, bro. And you deserve props for conducting the experiment, but surely you realize that it doesn’t prove anything about anything. It’s mainly an exercise in estimating things to fit what you already believe.
I do have to point out a few problems with your story though. The devil is always in the details.
- Myers has no way of knowing the exact time to the second that Bowley tried to get on the radio.
- Whaley’s trip log says he picked up his passenger at 12:30.
- The traffic would have been very different for Whaley’s reconstruction.
- Whaley originally said he dropped his passenger off at the 500 block of N Beckley.
- Roberts said Oswald was in his room 3 or 4 minutes.
- There is no evidence whatsoever that the man Tippit spoke to “reversed direction”.
- Burt said in his 12/26/63 affidavit that he saw the man enter the alley from Patton Street.
- There is no evidence for what time the ambulance was dispatched from the Dudley-Hughes Funeral Home.
- Robert Brock never said he saw Oswald.
- Postal never said she saw anybody approaching from the East, and certainly never said that she saw Oswald. When Brewer approached her she said “what man?”, and said that she was looking the other direction.
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Cool story, bro. And you deserve props for conducting the experiment, but surely you realize that it doesn’t prove anything about anything. It’s mainly an exercise in estimating things to fit what you already believe.
I do have to point out a few problems with your story though. The devil is always in the details.
- Myers has no way of knowing the exact time to the second that Bowley tried to get on the radio.
- Whaley’s trip log says he picked up his passenger at 12:30.
- The traffic would have been very different for Whaley’s reconstruction.
- Whaley originally said he dropped his passenger off at the 500 block of N Beckley.
- Roberts said Oswald was in his room 3 or 4 minutes.
- There is no evidence whatsoever that the man Tippit spoke to “reversed direction”.
- Burt said in his 12/26/63 affidavit that he saw the man enter the alley from Patton Street.
- There is no evidence for what time the ambulance was dispatched from the Dudley-Hughes Funeral Home.
- Robert Brock never said he saw Oswald.
- Postal never said she saw anybody approaching from the East, and certainly never said that she saw Oswald. When Brewer approached her she said “what man?”, and said that she was looking the other direction.
- Roberts said Oswald was in his room 3 or 4 minutes.
Roberts also said Oswald was back in his room NOT OVER 3 or 4 minutes. In addition, she stated that he was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket and put it on. How long does it take you to grab a jacket and put it on? I can do it in less than a minute and I have no super powers.
- Burt said in his 12/26/63 affidavit that he saw the man enter the alley from Patton Street.
Burt told Al Chapman in 1968 that he and Bill Smith were in the front yard of the house on the corner of Tenth and Denver, one block east of Tenth and Patton. Upon hearing the shots, they looked down the street. Smith said he saw Tippit fall to the ground and the killer run from the scene. Burt said they went to the scene and hung out there for a few minutes before deciding to go off in search of the killer (they had seen him turn south onto Patton). Burt told Chapman that at the point when they were halfway down Patton, they looked west in the alley and saw the guy almost down at the next block.
Burt saw the killer in the alley and assumed that the killer fled south on Patton and then into the alley. But, we know the killer fled all the way down Patton to Jefferson and then west on Jefferson for a block before going behind the Texaco station. The rear lot of the Texaco station butts up against the alley and this is when Burt and Smith saw the guy in the alley behind the Texaco.
- There is no evidence for what time the ambulance was dispatched from the Dudley-Hughes Funeral Home.
For what it's worth, George & Patricia Nash were given a copy of the trip ticket by JC Butler. They stated that the time was 1:18. Butler confirmed that he gave them a copy of the ticket.
- Postal never said she saw anybody approaching from the East...
No.
Postal saw the guy. She said he was just off the sidewalk and had a panicked look on his face.
The rest of your above statements don't warrant a response.
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Roberts also said Oswald was back in his room NOT OVER 3 or 4 minutes. In addition, she stated that he was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket and put it on. How long does it take you to grab a jacket and put it on? I can do it in less than a minute and I have no super powers.
I doesn't matter what you can do. Roberts said 3 or 4 minutes.
Burt told Al Chapman in 1968 that he and Bill Smith were in the front yard of the house on the corner of Tenth and Denver, one block east of Tenth and Patton. Upon hearing the shots, they looked down the street. Smith said he saw Tippit fall to the ground and the killer run from the scene. Burt said they went to the scene and hung out there for a few minutes before deciding to go off in search of the killer (they had seen him turn south onto Patton). Burt told Chapman that at the point when they were halfway down Patton, they looked west in the alley and saw the guy almost down at the next block.
Why would you prefer something Burt said 5 years later to what he said in 1963? Do you apply that standard to any other witness?
But, we know the killer fled all the way down Patton to Jefferson and then west on Jefferson for a block before going behind the Texaco station.
No, "we" don't know that.
For what it's worth, George & Patricia Nash were given a copy of the trip ticket by JC Butler. They stated that the time was 1:18. Butler confirmed that he gave them a copy of the ticket.
It's not worth much. The ticket either exists or it does not.
Postal saw the guy. She said he was just off the sidewalk and had a panicked look on his face.
When Brewer asked her if she sold a ticket to "that man", she asked "what man?" Why would she ask that if she had just seen somebody with a panicked look on his face duck in? And why wouldn't she have stopped him and made him buy a ticket? She also testified that she had stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west at the time. Did she have eyes in the back of her head?
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I doesn't matter what you can do. Roberts said 3 or 4 minutes.
Why would you prefer something Burt said 5 years later to what he said in 1963? Do you apply that standard to any other witness?
No, "we" don't know that.
It's not worth much. The ticket either exists or it does not.
When Brewer asked her if she sold a ticket to "that man", she asked "what man?" Why would she ask that if she had just seen somebody with a panicked look on his face duck in? And why wouldn't she have stopped him and made him buy a ticket? She also testified that she had stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west at the time. Did she have eyes in the back of her head?
I doesn't matter what you can do. Roberts said 3 or 4 minutes.
"Just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on." -- Earlene Roberts
Why would you prefer something Burt said 5 years later to what he said in 1963? Do you apply that standard to any other witness?
Burt's early statement to the FBI is an obvious lie. Even you should be able to realize that when reading it.
But if we're taking all FBI reports at their word, then Oswald carried a package that morning that was three feet in length by six inches wide. Right?
No, "we" don't know that.
Sure we do. Sam Guinyard, Ted Callaway, Harold Russell, Warren Reynolds, Pat Patterson and LJ Lewis all watched the man with the gun go to the corner of Patton and Jefferson and then turn right (west) onto Jefferson.
It's not worth much. The ticket either exists or it does not.
Point being, the Nashes saw it, Butler confirms they saw it... and they said it was 1:18.
When Brewer asked her if she sold a ticket to "that man", she asked "what man?" Why would she ask that if she had just seen somebody with a panicked look on his face duck in? And why wouldn't she have stopped him and made him buy a ticket? She also testified that she had stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west at the time. Did she have eyes in the back of her head?
Nonsense.
Postal said the guy was just off the sidewalk with a panicked look on his face.
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"Just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on." -- Earlene Roberts
"He went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes." -- Earlene Roberts
Burt's early statement to the FBI is an obvious lie.
Why would Burt lie about that?
Sure we do. Sam Guinyard, Ted Callaway, Harold Russell, Warren Reynolds, Pat Patterson and LJ Lewis all watched the man with the gun go to the corner of Patton and Jefferson and then turn right (west) onto Jefferson.
What makes you think Burt saw the same guy?
Point being, the Nashes saw it, Butler confirms they saw it... and they said it was 1:18.
Unsubstantiated double hearsay. The slip either exists or it does not.
Nonsense.
Postal said the guy was just off the sidewalk with a panicked look on his face.
Nonsense. Postal was facing the other way at the time and she said "what man?"
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Nonsense. Postal was facing the other way at the time and she said "what man?"
Postal saw Oswald whether you like it or not...
"Johnny asked me if I sold that man a ticket. I asked him what man. He said that man that just ducked in here. I told him no, I didn't, but I had noticed him as he ducked in here." -- Julia Postal
Postal then called the police...
"The officer asked me if the man fit the description of the suspect. I told him I didn't know because I hadn't heard the description of the suspect. I told the officer that I would describe the man to him and that he could take it from there." -- Julia Postal
Mr. BALL. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was just standing outside of the door, was he?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; he was still just in----just off of the sidewalk, and he headed for the theatre.
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Postal saw Oswald whether you like it or not...
"Johnny asked me if I sold that man a ticket. I asked him what man. He said that man that just ducked in here. I told him no, I didn't, but I had noticed him as he ducked in here." -- Julia Postal
Postal then called the police...
"The officer asked me if the man fit the description of the suspect. I told him I didn't know because I hadn't heard the description of the suspect. I told the officer that I would describe the man to him and that he could take it from there." -- Julia Postal
Mr. BALL. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was just standing outside of the door, was he?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; he was still just in----just off of the sidewalk, and he headed for the theatre.
Your problem, Bill - well, actually his and the others doing this - is that you are trying to reconstruct what happened, to solve a murder. Sure, you have biases like we all do. Confirmation bias, motivated reasoning. All of that fancy sounding stuff. But you are looking at the totality of evidence and trying as best as you can, again given our human failings, to explain what happened.
He's trying to exonerate Oswald. He's not interested in trying to figure out what happened. He's trying to clear his guy. So, Oswald is totally innocent, all of his actions can be dismissed or ignored while everyone else's actions are given sinister explanations. Why Oswald? Heck if I know.
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Here is the timeline I constructed based on Oswald able to have left the TSBD by 3 minutes post shots:
12:33 Oswald begins trek of 7 blocks to reach Mcwatters bus. (7 minutes required for average walking speed)
12:40 Oswald enters Mcwatters bus
12:42 Oswald departs the bus and begins trek of 4 blocks to reach Whaley’s taxi. Oswald double times jogs this distance in 2 minutes
12.44 Oswald enters Whaley’s taxi.
12:44 Whaley drives the distance to a point 5 blocks from boarding house in 7 minutes minutes (2 min faster than WC time trial).
12:51 Oswald exits taxi, and double times jogs the 5 blocks in about 2.5 minutes
12:53 Oswald enters boarding house. Takes 2 minutes to change shirt and put on jacket and get the revolver and some extra bullets.
12:55 Oswald leaves boarding house and then lingers about 1 minute outside by the street in view of Earlene Roberts.
12:56. Oswald begins a “brisk walk” to some location ( perhaps heading to Marsalis Zoo) that lands Oswald at 10th and Patton 11 minutes later where he is seen by Mariam
at 1:07
1:07-1:08 Tippit stops Oswald and after a 30 sec brief discussion, Tippit gets out of car and is shot by Oswald at 1:08. Oswald leaves the scene.
1:09 Benavides after having waited about 1 minute after Oswald left, and goes to Tippits car tries using radio.
1:10 Bowley arrives and makes 1st call to dispatcher on Tippits radio.
1:10 dispatcher radios hospital to send ambulance
1:12 ambulance arrives at 10th and Patton. 30 secs required to load Tippit
1:12:30 ambulance leaves 10th and Patton
1:14:30 ambulance arrives hospital emergency room. 30 secs required to move body from to room.
1:15 Emergency doctor prounounces Tippit DOA and records that time as 1:15.
Note: another 1 to 2 minutes can be subtracted from the overall timeline if Oswald doubletimes some part of the 7 block distance from TSBD to McWatters bus.
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Your problem, Bill - well, actually his and the others doing this - is that you are trying to reconstruct what happened, to solve a murder. Sure, you have biases like we all do. Confirmation bias, motivated reasoning. All of that fancy sounding stuff. But you are looking at the totality of evidence and trying as best as you can, again given our human failings, to explain what happened.
He's trying to exonerate Oswald. He's not interested in trying to figure out what happened. He's trying to clear his guy. So, Oswald is totally innocent, all of his actions can be dismissed or ignored while everyone else's actions are given sinister explanations. Why Oswald? Heck if I know.
Yessir. Iacoletti does everything he can (and suspends all common sense) to try to get Saint Lee of the Oswalds off the hook.
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Postal saw Oswald whether you like it or not...
"Johnny asked me if I sold that man a ticket. I asked him what man. He said that man that just ducked in here. I told him no, I didn't, but I had noticed him as he ducked in here." -- Julia Postal
BullSpotty Avocada. If she had actually seen him "duck in", why didn't she stop him and make him buy a ticket? Why did she tell both Brewer and the FBI that she wasn't sure whether she sold Oswald a ticket or not?
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Your problem, Bill - well, actually his and the others doing this - is that you are trying to reconstruct what happened, to solve a murder. Sure, you have biases like we all do. Confirmation bias, motivated reasoning. All of that fancy sounding stuff. But you are looking at the totality of evidence and trying as best as you can, again given our human failings, to explain what happened.
No, what he is doing is concocting fantasy stories out of thin air in order to fit his predetermined narrative.
He's trying to exonerate Oswald. He's not interested in trying to figure out what happened. He's trying to clear his guy. So, Oswald is totally innocent, all of his actions can be dismissed or ignored while everyone else's actions are given sinister explanations. Why Oswald? Heck if I know.
No need to "clear" anybody. You can either prove he committed a crime without appealing to fantasy or you cannot.
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Yessir. Iacoletti does everything he can (and suspends all common sense) to try to get Saint Lee of the Oswalds off the hook.
There's also no need to get somebody "off the hook" when nobody has gotten him on any hook to begin with. And "common sense" is not evidence. It's what people appeal to when they don't have actual evidence.
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BullSpotty Avocada. If she had actually seen him "duck in", why didn't she stop him and make him buy a ticket? Why did she tell both Brewer and the FBI that she wasn't sure whether she sold Oswald a ticket or not?
Who said Postal saw the guy duck in? You're confused.
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Yessir. Iacoletti does everything he can (and suspends all common sense) to try to get Saint Lee of the Oswalds off the hook.
He may be the most obvious doing this but, as you know, it's not just him. A dominant JFK conspiracy hobbyist view (there are exceptions but they are just that: exceptions) expressed at the conspiracy sites is that there is more evidence that Ruth Paine was involved in the assassination of JFK then there is evidence that Oswald was involved. My guess is that 90+% believe she was a conspirator; and 90+% believe Oswald was totally innocent. Remarkable.
That sounds tongue-in-cheek, like a strawman argument: but it's absolutely true.
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Who said Postal saw the guy duck in? You're confused.
Julia Postal did. And you call me confused...
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He may be the most obvious doing this but, as you know, it's not just him. A dominant JFK conspiracy hobbyist view (there are exceptions but they are just that: exceptions) expressed at the conspiracy sites is that there is more evidence that Ruth Paine was involved in the assassination of JFK then there is evidence that Oswald was involved. My guess is that 90+% believe she was a conspirator; and 90+% believe Oswald was totally innocent. Remarkable.
That sounds tongue-in-cheek, like a strawman argument: but it's absolutely true.
"My guess" does not equate with "absolutely true".
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BullSpotty Avocada. If she had actually seen him "duck in", why didn't she stop him and make him buy a ticket? Why did she tell both Brewer and the FBI that she wasn't sure whether she sold Oswald a ticket or not?
Who said Postal saw the guy duck in? You're confused.
Julia Postal did. And you call me confused...
Quote her saying she saw the guy duck in.
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Quote her saying she saw the guy duck in.
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in. (7H10)
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Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in. (7H10)
So she did indeed see the guy after all. A few posts back, you said she didn't see the guy.
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So she did indeed see the guy after all. A few posts back, you said she didn't see the guy.
You asked me to quote her saying that the guy ducked in. Whether it's true or not (and the totality of the evidence indicates that she didn't see anybody "looking panicked" or "ducking in"), she did say it. Did you say "Who said Postal saw the guy duck in? You're confused" just so you could play rhetorical games again?
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You asked me to quote her saying that the guy ducked in. Whether it's true or not (and the totality of the evidence indicates that she didn't see anybody "looking panicked" or "ducking in"), she did say it. Did you say "Who said Postal saw the guy duck in? You're confused" just so you could play rhetorical games again?
Here (again) is where you lack the ability to use your common sense.
Postal said she saw him, she saw the panicked look on his face.
She did not see him duck in; she made an obvious assumption based on the fact that she did not see him continue walking west of the theater (which is the direction she was looking) and Brewer told her the guy ducked in.
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Here (again) is where you lack the ability to use your common sense.
Postal said she saw him, she saw the panicked look on his face.
She did not see him duck in; she made an obvious assumption based on the fact that she did not see him continue walking west of the theater (which is the direction she was looking) and Brewer told her the guy ducked in.
You always think your imagined stories are "common sense". But what you are doing is cherry-picking the things you like. I could just as easily claim that Brewer told her about the look on the guy's face too. She was facing the other direction and said "what man?".
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You always think your imagined stories are "common sense". But what you are doing is cherry-picking the things you like. I could just as easily claim that Brewer told her about the look on the guy's face too. She was facing the other direction and said "what man?".
The things I like? What do I care whether she saw him or not?
Anyway...
"As I started back in the box office, Johnny (Brewer) asked me if I had sold that man a ticket. I asked him what man. He said the man that just ducked in here. I told him no, I didn't, but I had noticed him as he ducked in here." -- Julia Postal (affidavit)
Postal called the police...
"The officer asked me if the man fit the description of the suspect. I told him that I didn't know because I hadn't heard the description of the suspect. I told the officer that I would describe the man to him and that he could take it from there." -- Julia Postal (affidavit)
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You always think your imagined stories are "common sense". But what you are doing is cherry-picking the things you like. I could just as easily claim that Brewer told her about the look on the guy's face too. She was facing the other direction and said "what man?".
How ironic, seeing as how you're a cherry-picker par excellence.
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The things I like? What do I care whether she saw him or not?
Well, you're sure belaboring the point for somebody who doesn't care.
"The officer asked me if the man fit the description of the suspect. I told him that I didn't know because I hadn't heard the description of the suspect. I told the officer that I would describe the man to him and that he could take it from there." -- Julia Postal (affidavit)
You skipped the part where she said she knew he was in the theater because of "woman's intuition".
Now look at her testimony and the "detailed" description to the police of the man she supposedly saw:
"And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you,""
Now compare this to the description of the 10th and Patton suspect:
"That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt,"
Yeah, sound like a match to me. Let's stormtroop the Texas Theater.
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How ironic, seeing as how you're a cherry-picker par excellence.
Really. For example?
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Well, you're sure belaboring the point for somebody who doesn't care.
You skipped the part where she said she knew he was in the theater because of "woman's intuition".
Now look at her testimony and the "detailed" description to the police of the man she supposedly saw:
"And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you,""
Now compare this to the description of the 10th and Patton suspect:
"That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt,"
Yeah, sound like a match to me. Let's stormtroop the Texas Theater.
Completely unrelated to what we're discussing. Postal clearly saw him before he ducked in.
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Start video at 22:37
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Completely unrelated to what we're discussing. Postal clearly saw him before he ducked in.
Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked? This man that you were----
Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and----I don't know if you are familiar with the theatre.
Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre.
Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In other words, he ducked right in.
Mr. BALL. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner----
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.
Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car.
JohnM
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Completely unrelated to what we're discussing. Postal clearly saw him before he ducked in.
Why? Just because she claimed to? Great, then Burroughs clearly saw him getting popcorn at 1:15.
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Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.
Brewer: "I asked the girl in the box office if she sold the man a ticket and she replied that she did not think so, that she had been listening to the radio and did not remember".
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I don’t understand how Postal could have seen Oswald when she says she did NOT see him
Go past her as she was looking west and didn’t apparently look back towards the theater entrance until Brewer (who came from east= 180 degrees opposite west= approached BEHIND her , and asked her if she had seen the Oswald that Brewer had been following , and if he had bought a ticket.
So Oswald came from the EAST while Postal was looking WEST so she simply is jumping to a conclusion from hearing Brewer, that Oswald must have gone past her and “ducked” in to the theater even though Postal then also she did NOT actually see Oswald go into the theater thru the door because when she looked back, the door was closed.
None the less can we at least conclude that if Postal is certain she did not sell a ticket to the man she saw arrested and taken out the theater later, whom she later IDs as being Oswald, that Oswald de facto must have entered the theater without having bought a ticket from Postal.?
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None the less can we at least conclude that if Postal is certain she did not sell a ticket to the man she saw arrested and taken out the theater later, whom she later IDs as being Oswald, that Oswald de facto must have entered the theater without having bought a ticket from Postal.?
She never IDed anybody.
She also told both Brewer and the FBI that she wasn't sure whether she sold him a ticket or not.
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So then is Postal about as unreliable a witness as Burroughs ?
It sure does seem strange that Oswald who had a wife and children would have prioritized taking a taxi 1st to his boarding house , then take a walk from there to go see a movie, which is about the only way he could have made it to the theater ( if he walked) by 1:15 in time to have been seen by Burroughs.
One would think that a man who was present at the vicinity of the assassination of the US President , (at his own place of work no less) would be concerned more about his immediate family , and have taken a taxi to go see that his family is safe before doing anything else.
Oswald it seems, was not only not interested , curious, or concerned about what had just happened in Dealey Plaza, but he was equally apparently little concerned about his family so much that he elected just to go see a movie.
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Why in the world would his family 15 miles away be unsafe?
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Mr.I that’s a similar question to my other question what could be the reason Oswald seemed to be in a hurry to return to the boarding house as his 1st priority.
Perhaps because Oswald had at the least some association with characters like Jack
Ruby and also perhaps Oswald had some CIA connection if he was a participant in the CIA defector program and had been at that top
secret base in Japan which was monitoring Russian radio communications. It’s not a coincidence imo that Oswald could speak and understand Russian language. Then there is George DeM the millionaire who befriends Oswald.
So the assassination may have really shook Oswald up and he started connecting some dots including himself having a job at the TSBD that was coincidentally arranged for him by Ruth Paine
So Oswald becomes paranoid, and the 1st priority is self preservation of his own life which prompts return to boarding house to get a revolver.
Since it is uncertain where Oswald was going after he left the boarding house ( can we really believe Will Fritz notes about going to see a movie?) then he might very well been intending THEN to get some transportation Either by bus or another taxi to check on his family at the Paines residence. Especially if Oswald was suspicious or knew that Ruth Paine was a CIA asset.
The answer therefore to Mr.I is that Oswald if paranoid about himself being a target by CIA or FBI ( or mafia?) he would likely also have thought his Russian wife would be in danger.