JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Bill Brown on June 23, 2024, 06:23:16 PM
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Ended November 10, 2021 - Sold For: $75,000
Lee Harvey Oswald’s US Marine Corps Rifle Score Book (Warren Commission Exhibit No. 239)
Lee Harvey Oswald's US Marine Corps Rifle Score Book—Exhibit 239 used as evidence in the Warren Commission Report on the Assassination of President Kennedy
(https://talker.news/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/assassins-notes-747061.jpg)
https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/lot-detail/345171706200220-lee-harvey-oswalds-us-marine-corps-rifle-score-book-warren-commission-exhibit-no-239?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3LGeN545ROorycyOrCUtYxhL99CA2nDwK3IcGEx8m_OTAX9kBULLNLvkA_aem_ka62YuT10RmIlzlMHaMhyw
Description
Lee Harvey Oswald's US Marine Corps Rifle Score Book—Exhibit 239 used as evidence in the Warren Commission Report on the Assassination of President Kennedy
Lee Harvey Oswald's personally-owned and used softcover workbook entitled “U. S. Marine Corps Score Book for U. S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 and U. S. Carbine, Caliber .30, M1A1,” 80 pages, 6" x 3.75", filled out by Oswald on the front cover in pencil with his name, “Oswald, L. H.,” rifle number, “4314215,” organization, “2060 2nd R.T.V.,” and date issued, “3 Dec. ’56.” The first few pages contain instructions for shooting and scorekeeping, with pencil notations by Oswald. The majority of the book consists of target diagrams and tables filled out in pencil by Oswald, plotting his shots on the diagrams and recording relevant details like date, elevation and wind speed/direction. Oswald also generally indicates his firing position in the upper margin, such as "kneeling," "sitting," or "prone." In total Oswald completed 32 pages throughout the month of December, with two being practice 'samples' and the rest his actual results. In very good to fine condition, with two toned tape remnants affixed to the front cover, light general soiling, and three small areas of surface loss to the back cover. Accompanied by interesting correspondence from 1969 between Marguerite Oswald and Dr. John Lattimer, a notable researcher of the Kennedy assassination, who originally purchased the score book from her; this includes one handwritten letter from Dr. Lattimer to Marguerite Oswald and four letters and envelopes from Marguerite Oswald to Dr. Lattimer, the most fascinating being one dated April 17, 1969, Ft. Worth, signed "Marguerite C. Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey Oswald," in part: “My late son’s Marine score book is in the same condition as when he left it with me…Someday soon it will be proven that a conspiracy did exist and that my son was indeed the ‘patsy.’”
On December 21, 1956, Oswald was tested for marksmanship with his rifle on five different exercises—from 200, 300 and 500 yards firing slowly and from 200 and 300 yards firing rapidly. Based on these results a Marine would be rated by a defined scoring system: over 190 points was considered a marksman, over 210 was a sharpshooter, and over 220 was considered an expert. Oswald scored 212 and was rated in the middle as a sharpshooter. For the slow test (page 5), the target was 10" tall by 10" wide. For the rapid fire test the target was 26" wide by 19" tall. A closer examination of Oswald's 200 yard rapid fire result shows he hit 8/10 bullseyes and scored 48 out of 50. An expert rating on this test would have required a minimum score of 44 points (44 points x 5 tests = 220 points required). On his next test, 300 yards in rapid fire, Oswald hit 7/10 bullseyes scoring 46 out of 50. Again an expert rating on this test would have required a result of 44. So in both tests that most closely matched the conditions in the Kennedy assassination for rapid fire shooting Oswald scored above an expert level. Additionally on his third test from 500 yards firing slowly, Oswald scored 46 out of a possible 50: again shooting above an expert level.
For the past 57 years many have claimed Oswald was a lousy shot and could not have killed Kennedy. These three test scores show otherwise. His above-expert level in three of five tests shows he was capable of assassinating President Kennedy either alone, or—if chosen by conspirators as a 'patsy'—had the appropriate background and capabilities. The Warren Commission used only one piece of physical evidence to state that Oswald was capable of assassinating President Kennedy—and it was these scorecards from December 21, 1956. These scorecards can be found in Warren Commission Volume 16, pgs. 639-679, as Commission Exhibit 239. These results enabled the Warren Commission, in their single-volume final report (pgs. 18-19), to state: "The Commission has concluded further that Oswald possessed the capability with a rifle which enabled him to commit the assassination."
An extraordinary piece of history used as a major exhibit of evidence in the Warren Commission conclusions implicating Lee Harvey Oswald to the Kennedy assassination.
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"A closer examination of Oswald's 200 yard rapid fire result shows he hit 8/10 bullseyes and scored 48 out of 50. An expert rating on this test would have required a minimum score of 44 points"
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"On his next test, 300 yards in rapid fire, Oswald hit 7/10 bullseyes scoring 46 out of 50. Again an expert rating on this test would have required a result of 44. So in both tests that most closely matched the conditions in the Kennedy assassination for rapid fire shooting Oswald scored above an expert level."
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"Additionally on his third test from 500 yards firing slowly, Oswald scored 46 out of a possible 50: again shooting above an expert level."
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"For the past 57 years many have claimed Oswald was a lousy shot and could not have killed Kennedy. These three test scores show otherwise."
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In the last testing Oswald scored one point above the minimum for the lowest grade
(May 06,1959 MCAS El Toro CA )
Marksman Qualification = 190
Oswald Score = 191
“To become qualified as a sharpshooter the Marine Corps is of the opinion that most Marines
with a reasonable amount of adaptability to weapons firing can be, so qualified. Consequently a low marksman
qualification indicates a “rather poor shot” (Vol 19 pages 16-18)
https://jfk.boards.net/post/4438/thread
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In the last testing Oswald scored one point above the minimum for the lowest grade
(May 06,1959 MCAS El Toro CA )
Marksman Qualification = 190
Oswald Score = 191
“To become qualified as a sharpshooter the Marine Corps is of the opinion that most Marines
with a reasonable amount of adaptability to weapons firing can be, so qualified. Consequently a low marksman
qualification indicates a “rather poor shot” (Vol 19 pages 16-18)
https://jfk.boards.net/post/4438/thread
I've pointed this out before, but once again...
The MC marksmanship qualification shooting test requires a shooter to fire 50 rounds at targets ranging out to 500 yards. Hitting the center of the target earns 5 points. Rounds that fall further away from center merit progressively fewer points, and no points are scored if the target it completely missed. In light of this, the fewest number of hits to a target to get a specific score is to divide the score by 5.
So, the way to score 191 points with the fewest hits is to hit the center 191/5 = 38.2, or hit the center 38 times and anywhere else on the target once. That's 29 hits out of 50 shots, or Oswald hitting the target 80% of the time. And that's the *minimum possible* number of hits. Oswald almost certainly scored at least 40 hits at El Toro. A 212 would require an absolute minimum of 42.2 hits, hitting the target 86% of the time.
The WC/HSCA scenario only requires two out of three hits.
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In the last testing Oswald scored one point above the minimum for the lowest grade
(May 06,1959 MCAS El Toro CA )
Marksman Qualification = 190
Oswald Score = 191
“To become qualified as a sharpshooter the Marine Corps is of the opinion that most Marines
with a reasonable amount of adaptability to weapons firing can be, so qualified. Consequently a low marksman
qualification indicates a “rather poor shot” (Vol 19 pages 16-18)
https://jfk.boards.net/post/4438/thread
Let's put this "191" performance into context, shall we.
Oswald was 17 when he scored "212" and then at 19 he scored "191", so Oswald was older and more experienced yet scored less, what changed between these two events?
1. Oswald brings joy and happiness to the Marines and scores "212"
2. Oswald was court-martialed for illegal possession of a firearm.
3. Oswald was court-martialed for a second time for assaulting a superior officer.
4. Oswald spends time in the Brig and seemingly becomes disillusioned with this whole Marines thing.
5. Oswald's unit arrives in Taiwan, where he suffers a nervous breakdown and is sent back to Japan.
6. Delgado a fellow Marine describes Oswald on the firing range as not "giving a darn", seeing this as a "joke" and not being very "enthusiastic".
7. Oswald scores "191"
8. Just a few months after his "191", Oswald makes up a Bogus story about his injured Mother and is soon after released from active Duty.
9. Oswald defects to the enemy.
10. The enemy rejects Oswald, so Oswald in a rage of self harm, rips open his wrist which bleeds excessively and the wound requires a number of stitches. Oswald in his Historic Diary" describes his suicide attempt, "watch my life whirl away. I think to myself. "how easy to die" and "a sweet death""
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What do some Marine Officers say about Oswald's Marine shooting abilities.
Mr. SPECTER. Based on the tests of Mr. Oswald shown by those documents, how would you characterize his ability as a marksman?
Sergeant ZAHM. I would say in the Marine Corps he is a good shot, slightly above average, and as compared to the average male of his age throughout the civilian, throughout the United States, that he is an excellent shot.
How about the question of Oswald's capabilities to take the head shot?
Mr. SPECTER - I now show you a document marked as Commission Exhibit No. 902, which characterizes what was believed to have been the shot which struck President Kennedy in the head at a distance from rifle in window to the President of 265.3 feet, with the photograph through rifle scope identified on the document being the view which the marksman had of the President at the time the President was struck in the head, and I ask you again for an opinion as to the ease or difficulty of that shot, taking into consideration the capabilities of Mr. Oswald as a marksman, evidenced by the Marine Corps documents on him.
Major ANDERSON - I consider it to be not a particularly difficult shot at this short range, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make such a shot.
Then lastly, what was the difficulties of Oswald with his equipment of taking the Dealey Plaza shot?
Mr. SPECTER. How would you characterize that, as a difficult, not too difficult, easy, or how would you characterize that shot?
Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I consider it a very easy shot.
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5005cf71e4b059c85b977f11/1448215577875-FB53BIZ7FZWRRK6CWFZB/image-asset.jpeg)
JohnM
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"...Consequently a low marksman qualification indicates a “rather poor shot” Thumb1:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0018a.htm
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I've pointed this out before, but once again...
The MC marksmanship qualification shooting test requires a shooter to fire 50 rounds at targets ranging out to 500 yards. Hitting the center of the target earns 5 points. Rounds that fall further away from center merit progressively fewer points, and no points are scored if the target it completely missed. In light of this, the fewest number of hits to a target to get a specific score is to divide the score by 5.
So, the way to score 191 points with the fewest hits is to hit the center 191/5 = 38.2, or hit the center 38 times and anywhere else on the target once. That's 29 hits out of 50 shots, or Oswald hitting the target 80% of the time. And that's the *minimum possible* number of hits. Oswald almost certainly scored at least 40 hits at El Toro. A 212 would require an absolute minimum of 42.2 hits, hitting the target 86% of the time.
The WC/HSCA scenario only requires two out of three hits.
As you explain: What does that Oswald test score mean? What did it measure? Or any test score for that matter? Without the details these are essentially meaningless numbers. If you told someone from France that you scored 1000 on a SAT test they would probably ask, "What's that mean? What did it test?" For them it's just a number.
This is like saying person "A" scored X points on a test that placed him just above the middle of three standards or categories. Swell, what does that mean about his or her aptitude? It's meaningless unless you know what "X" means and what the standards meant and what the test entailed.
So you explain in detail what the test entailed, what the scores meant. That's what one would want.
Many - not all - conspiracists simply don't like to go into those details. They grab one "data point", one "Gotcha!", and think that's sufficient. It's not. It's like the "Oswald double" story. They cite the phone call from Hoover and the photo and ignore everything else we've learned over the past 60+ years.
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But Oswald was using a semi auto 7.62 mm M1 Garand rifle when he was doing that “rapid fire” USMC target shooting test that was NOT shooting from 72 ft height.
Operating an old bolt action MC rifle with fixed fsights zero of 200m from a 72ft height and shooting down at a target less than 100 meters away moving at 15mph , with a cross wind of 15-20 mph , and a tree in the way , may not not be quite the same thing?
The CBS trial shooters seem to have had quite a lot of problems and they didn’t even have a tree in the way or were required to sit on a box and then lean forward to place the rifle to rest on top of the box resting on the window ledge.
And even with the added advantage of having a white painted track clearly visible and the target itself being a red shape on a black square, there were 33 attempts required of which only one old guy was supposedly able to have made 3 shots and scored 3 hits ( but missed the head) in approx 5.1 secs.
I do not know if that one old guy who APPEARS to be shooting the rifle actually hit the target or not because there was not a secondary camera zoomed in on the target to verify holes appearing simultaneous with movement of the old guys trigger finger.
And I don’t think that old guy ever was tested again and if he did some other test by other independent media to verify he could replicate what CBS and Dan Rather CLAIM he did.
(Not sure this guy was ever interviewed or had to make statement under oath that he actually did accomplish the feat).
The theoretical position of sitting on the box by the pipes so as to remain out of LOS of Hughes film camera , was actually tested by one of this forums members, (Mr. Collins) who actually built a scale model in his garage. and posted some photos showing how the shooter leans forward holding his rifle while still sitting on the box.
It would be not so much a question if all 3 shots could definitively be established to be spread out over at least an 7 second period but because the closest ear witness right beneath the 6th floor TSBD shooter , Harold Norman replicated the 3 shots completed in only about 4 secs max ( via his boom click sequence in the video recordings) then there is still reasonable doubt.
And it’s even more in doubt because so many witness vast majority heard the last 2 shots so close together that it’s improbable that the head shot at Z313 could be the 3rd shot 4.8 seconds after the 2nd shot at Z224.
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But Oswald was using a semi auto 7.62 mm M1 Garand rifle when he was doing that “rapid fire” USMC target shooting test that was NOT shooting from 72 ft height.
Operating an old bolt action MC rifle with fixed fsights zero of 200m from a 72ft height and shooting down at a target less than 100 meters away moving at 15mph , with a cross wind of 15-20 mph , and a tree in the way , may not not be quite the same thing?
The CBS trial shooters seem to have had quite a lot of problems and they didn’t even have a tree in the way or were required to sit on a box and then lean forward to place the rifle to rest on top of the box resting on the window ledge.
And even with the added advantage of having a white painted track clearly visible and the target itself being a red shape on a black square, there were 33 attempts required of which only one old guy was supposedly able to have made 3 shots and scored 3 hits ( but missed the head) in approx 5.1 secs.
I do not know if that one old guy who APPEARS to be shooting the rifle actually hit the target or not because there was not a secondary camera zoomed in on the target to verify holes appearing simultaneous with movement of the old guys trigger finger.
And I don’t think that old guy ever was tested again and if he did some other test by other independent media to verify he could replicate what CBS and Dan Rather CLAIM he did.
(Not sure this guy was ever interviewed or had to make statement under oath that he actually did accomplish the feat).
The theoretical position of sitting on the box by the pipes so as to remain out of LOS of Hughes film camera , was actually tested by one of this forums members, (Mr. Collins) who actually built a scale model in his garage. and posted some photos showing how the shooter leans forward holding his rifle while still sitting on the box.
It would be not so much a question if all 3 shots could definitively be established to be spread out over at least an 7 second period but because the closest ear witness right beneath the 6th floor TSBD shooter , Harold Norman replicated the 3 shots completed in only about 4 secs max ( via his boom click sequence in the video recordings) then there is still reasonable doubt.
And it’s even more in doubt because so many witness vast majority heard the last 2 shots so close together that it’s improbable that the head shot at Z313 could be the 3rd shot 4.8 seconds after the 2nd shot at Z224.
It would be not so much a question if all 3 shots could definitively be established to be spread out over at least an 7 second period …
The photographic record appears to indicate an early missed shot around the mid to late Z150s. When Jerry Organ recently posted his clip of the lady’s extremely fast head snap (see the thread “A Closer Look”) combined with the other photographic evidence, it became enough to convince me. Combine that with the apparent shot around Z224 and the last shot hitting at Z313, and there is approximately 8.6 seconds for the three shots to take place.
We can all see the photographic evidence and interpret it for ourselves. We do not have to rely on witness accounts (and all of their inconsistencies) and all the various interpretations of them. The “he said, she said” arguments will continue to take place here with no end in sight. It has been over sixty years and people still choose to argue about what so and so meant when he/she said such and such. There are so many witness accounts that anyone with any kind of nutty idea can find something that they think supports their ideas.
I suggest that you look and think for yourself Zeon.
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"...Consequently a low marksman qualification indicates a “rather poor shot” Thumb1:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0018a.htm
A "poor shot" as compared to what? Also, Folsom was the officer who was "head, records branch, personnel department" and as such may not have been the best arbiter of all things marksmanship.
Again, if you look at what the "191" score actually means, Oswald was more than capable of hitting a human being consistently with a rifle. But you don't want to look at that, do you?
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A "poor shot" as compared to what? Also, Folsom was the officer who was "head, records branch, personnel department" and as such may not have been the best arbiter of all things marksmanship.
Again, if you look at what the "191" score actually means, Oswald was more than capable of hitting a human being consistently with a rifle. But you don't want to look at that, do you?
what are you babbling now? - Like you know better than this LT Colonel that actually used the guideline every day?
It is not my opinion nor the opinion of the WC or HSCA. (like u said it was) It was set by the USMC. You just make stuff up.
I'll look at something else that documents what exactly the Marines accept - otherwise your opinion just doesn't mean that much.
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It would be not so much a question if all 3 shots could definitively be established to be spread out over at least an 7 second period …
The photographic record appears to indicate an early missed shot around the mid to late Z150s. When Jerry Organ recently posted his clip of the lady’s extremely fast head snap (see the thread “A Closer Look”) combined with the other photographic evidence, it became enough to convince me. Combine that with the apparent shot around Z224 and the last shot hitting at Z313, and there is approximately 8.6 seconds for the three shots to take place.
We can all see the photographic evidence and interpret it for ourselves. We do not have to rely on witness accounts (and all of their inconsistencies) and all the various interpretations of them. The “he said, she said” arguments will continue to take place here with no end in sight. It has been over sixty years and people still choose to argue about what so and so meant when he/she said such and such. There are so many witness accounts that anyone with any kind of nutty idea can find something that they think supports their ideas.
I suggest that you look and think for yourself Zeon.
The photographic record appears to indicate an early missed shot around the mid to late Z150s
The photographic record indicates nothing of the sort. It is the worse case of wishful thinking on your behalf.
The evidence overwhelmingly supports a first shot at z222/223.
You seem to have abandoned your initial belief of an early missed shot in the z130's. What caused you to do this?
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what are you babbling now? - Like you know better than this LT Colonel that actually used the guideline every day?
It is not my opinion nor the opinion of the WC or HSCA. (like u said it was) It was set by the USMC. You just make stuff up.
I'll look at something else that documents what exactly the Marines accept - otherwise your opinion just doesn't mean that much.
Who said that Folsom "used the guideline every day?" By his own description, he oversaw the USMC's records division. That's it.
Compare Folsom to Major Anderson, who was "Assistant Head of the Marksmanship Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps." He had done "marksmanship training for approximately 18 years" and was "a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America."
So what does he have to say about Oswald's capability? Here:
Mr. SPECTER - Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald's marksmanship capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman?
Major ANDERSON - I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to--better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot.
Now, an appeal to Anderson's testimony is just an appeal to authority. But so is any appeal to anything Folsom said. The difference is that Anderson is demonstrably an expert in how the Marines see rifle marksmanship. The key to understanding Oswald's capabilities with a rifle is to look at his actual scores, with an understanding of what those scores actually mean. And those scores mean that Oswald was capable of hitting the target 80% of the time or better. All you have in response is the opinion of the Chief File Clerk in Washington. Good luck with that.
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Oswald was perhaps Capable of an 80% score while using a semi auto M1 Garand rifle firing at targets at the same approx elevation as the shooter , while using a shooting position that the shooter in the TSBD was not likely using.
The ? Is ihowxolaysubke it is to extrapolate from that test that Oswald would be able to rapidly fire 2 shots with an old bolt action MC rifle that would be so close together that witnesses perceived the shots to be “back to back” , Or only about 1 sec apart like Lee Bowers demonstrated rapping his hand on the desk in video that Mark Lane recorded.
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Oswald was perhaps Capable of an 80% score while using a semi auto M1 Garand rifle firing at targets at the same approx elevation as the shooter , while using a shooting position that the shooter in the TSBD was not likely using.
The ? Is ihowxolaysubke it is to extrapolate from that test that Oswald would be able to rapidly fire 2 shots with an old bolt action MC rifle that would be so close together that witnesses perceived the shots to be “back to back” , Or only about 1 sec apart like Lee Bowers demonstrated rapping his hand on the desk in video that Mark Lane recorded.
"Back to back" is a subjective description. Given that we are dealing with a sudden, unexpected and shocking event, and trying to drill down to what happened in a matter of a few seconds, such descriptions are informative but shouldn't be construed as literal. It could simply mean that two shots were closer together than the other shot. Comparative and only lending insight on the timing by implication to the pause between the other shot. The basic question is this. Is there anything about this scenario that precludes Oswald from having fired three shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD with his MC rifle and hitting JFK twice? He was trained in the USMC. His rifle was functional. The distance was not great. Nothing about the circumstances suggests that he couldn't have done this or even that it was unlikely. I certainly would not like my chances driving in slow moving vehicle down Elm St. while a USMC trained shooter firing three shots. I don't think anyone else here would.
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The ? Is ihowxolaysubke it is to extrapolate from that test that Oswald would be able to rapidly fire 2 shots with an old bolt action MC rifle that would be so close together that witnesses perceived the shots to be “back to back” , Or only about 1 sec apart like Lee Bowers demonstrated rapping his hand on the desk in video that Mark Lane recorded.
First of all this was Bowers' Hallucination on the day of the assassination. Oops!
Mr. BALL - Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after the shot?
Mr. BOWERS - At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/bowers.htm
Secondly, these shooters who had Actual Real World experience with Bolt Action Rifles, said that the shot spacing in Dealey Plaza could be accomplished with a bolt action rifle.
Mr. BELIN - Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. BELIN - Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm
BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. BREHM stated that he was in military service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he expressed the opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and fire three shots.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/brehm.htm
(https://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/images/wc1303.gif)
Btw what does "ihowxolaysubke" mean?
JohnM
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@Mr.Spock (JohnM) : I do not know how that unknown gobbledegook word appeared but I did not type it that way. It must have been changed by some quirk in the programming ( maybe Kirk tampered with it?) when I tapped the post button.
As to Bowers, he’s not the only witness who seems to recall the last 2 shots so close together as to rule out a 4.8 sec spread from Z.224 to Z313.
Even if you could manage to convince skeptics like me ( since I do not believe I am an extreme type CT as you may have encountered over the years) that there’s a shot fired way back at Z150 the problem still remains that the spacing is in conflict with the majority of witness hearing the 1…..2..3 pattern and with the closest witness, Harold Norman who completes his replication of the 3 shots he heard in about 4 secs.
So are you suggesting that I discount Normans recall of the shot spacing also?
Seems improbable to me that Norman would remember 3 shots spaced over 7-8 seconds ( if proposing Z150-160 1st shot ) being completed in only 4 secs or less)
Most every video recording I’ve seen of Norman doing his boom click click sequence , he completes it in 4 secs ( or even less)
So no disrespect to you JohnM , the senior expert on the WC theory , but I cannot dismiss just those parts of Bowers or Norman or Markam statements which conflict with the WC theory while retaining only those parts that support it.
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@Mr.Spock (JohnM) : I do not know how that unknown gobbledegook word appeared but I did not type it that way. It must have been changed by some quirk in the programming ( maybe Kirk tampered with it?) when I tapped the post button.
As to Bowers, he’s not the only witness who seems to recall the last 2 shots so close together as to rule out a 4.8 sec spread from Z.224 to Z313.
Even if you could manage to convince skeptics like me ( since I do not believe I am an extreme type CT as you may have encountered over the years) that there’s a shot fired way back at Z150 the problem still remains that the spacing is in conflict with the majority of witness hearing the 1…..2..3 pattern and with the closest witness, Harold Norman who completes his replication of the 3 shots he heard in about 4 secs.
So are you suggesting that I discount Normans recall of the shot spacing also?
Seems improbable to me that Norman would remember 3 shots spaced over 7-8 seconds ( if proposing Z150-160 1st shot ) being completed in only 4 secs or less)
Most every video recording I’ve seen of Norman doing his boom click click sequence , he completes it in 4 secs ( or even less)
So no disrespect to you JohnM , the senior expert on the WC theory , but I cannot dismiss just those parts of Bowers or Norman or Markam statements which conflict with the WC theory while retaining only those parts that support it.
Harold Norman in later recollections was simply describing with brevity what he heard in regards to the Boom, click, click, Boom, click, click, Boom, click, click.
Norman's early affidavit specifically states that there was a time interval of "several seconds" between the first and second shots.
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor."
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
Even more importantly Norman tells us the weapon he heard was a bolt action rifle, which by nature has a distinct sound and just happens to match Oswald's rifle which was found on the floor above.
"I also could here the bolt action of the rifle."
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
Then Norman finally clarifies that he heard shells strike the floor above.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?
Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm
And surprise, surprise, surprise, there was three shells found in the sniper's nest directly above Norman.
(https://www.jfk-assassination.net/hulls.jpg)
So in summation, there were eyewitnesses who were familiar with bolt action rifles who say the shots could have been fired by a bolt action rifle and then as you rightfully acknowledge, the closest eyewitness, Norman, says he heard a bolt action rifle from right above. What's left to argue?
Btw as for Helen Markham, she was only 1 of many who identified Oswald either at or moving away from the Tippit crime scene.
JohnM
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Imo, if there’s a 1st shot fired as early as Z150-160, then the reason it was a complete miss was because the shooter , sitting on the box , (as Mr.Collins demonstrated in his self built full scale model of the SN), maybe had to adjust himself more than he anticipated and he in haste fired the 1st shot before he had his rifle securely resting on the top of the box on the window ledge.
Perhaps he leaned over at about Z140, rested the rifle on the window ledge box, and then saw when he looked thru his scope or his iron sights that he couldn’t get JFK in his sight without partially standing, so being in a state of anxiety already. he tried to stand up partially and take a shot and in doing so, maybe he did not lead the moving target enough, since the limo at Z150-Z160 being a closer angle requires a faster tracking speed than at the longer angle at. Z224.
Unfortunately the CBS trial shooters did NOT replicate this theoretical firing position that Mr.Collins experiment shows is reasonably plausible.
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Imo, if there’s a 1st shot fired as early as Z150-160, then the reason it was a complete miss was because the shooter , sitting on the box , (as Mr.Collins demonstrated in his self built full scale model of the SN), maybe had to adjust himself more than he anticipated and he in haste fired the 1st shot before he had his rifle securely resting on the top of the box on the window ledge.
Perhaps he leaned over at about Z140, rested the rifle on the window ledge box, and then saw when he looked thru his scope or his iron sights that he couldn’t get JFK in his sight without partially standing, so being in a state of anxiety already. he tried to stand up partially and take a shot and in doing so, maybe he did not lead the moving target enough, since the limo at Z150-Z160 being a closer angle requires a faster tracking speed than at the longer angle at. Z224.
Unfortunately the CBS trial shooters did NOT replicate this theoretical firing position that Mr.Collins experiment shows is reasonably plausible.
Thanks for the remarks Zeon. I am glad the experiments made an impression on you. There are some important ergonomic aspects that can only be learned by sitting in a full-sized mock up of the sniper’s nest with a rifle in hand and aiming at targets at the same approximate angles that the actual shots were estimated to have been taken at. As someone else pointed out, it is surprising that there has not been much attention paid to these ergonomic aspects. Here is a photo marked up that shows the targets and how close to the window box the rifle is when aiming at the Z160 target.
(https://i.vgy.me/CJuK6K.jpg)
Another factor that I believe is relevant is the trigger pull weight of the Carcano rifle. According to Wikipedia, the M1 Garrand rifle’s average trigger pull weight is 6 to 6.5 lbs. And the minimum safe weight is 4.5 lbs. However, the Carcano rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD had a much lower trigger pull weight:
“The trigger pull was determined by the panel to be approximately 3 pounds.”
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/firearms_hsca.htm (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/firearms_hsca.htm)
Therefore, it appears that the Carcano rifle had a very significantly lower (around one-half) trigger pull weight than the average M1 rifle that LHO had trained extensively with while he was in the USMC. Even highly trained experts sometimes have guns inadvertently fire before they are completely ready. Especially when those guns have a significantly lighter trigger pull weight than what they have become accustomed to.
It seems to me that LHO would not have been likely to miss the entire limo when shooting a shot at the ~Z160 time frame unless the shot happened before he was completely ready and aimed to fire. I think the lighter trigger pull and possibly some interference from the window box, etc could have been factors that might have caused a missed shot.