JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Bill Brown on January 07, 2025, 04:00:54 AM
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"I Haven't Seen Him Myself" -- Butch Burroughs
Many conspiracy advocates like to argue that Lee Oswald could not have killed J.D. Tippit because he (Oswald) was inside the Texas Theater at the time of the Tippit shooting.
They rely on theater concessions man and ticket taker Butch Burroughs in an attempt to show that Oswald was in the theater by 1:07 or so. The claim is that Butch Burroughs sold popcorn to Oswald at around 1:15, the time Tippit was shot.
The argument goes that Burroughs told Jim Marrs (in 1987) that he sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15 and that Burroughs also stated (to Marrs in 1987 and for the documentary The Men Who Killed Kennedy in 1988) that he saw Oswald enter the theater at 1:06/1:07.
However, Burroughs testified to the Warren Commission in 1964 and was directly asked by Joseph Ball if he saw the guy (Oswald) come into the theater and Burroughs replied that he did not see the guy come in. Most assassination enthusiasts are aware of this and the response from most of the conspiracy advocates is that Burroughs didn't actually see the guy enter but knew that he did around 1:06/1:07.
Here's the problem for the conspiracy argument, which rarely gets brought up...
During the brief search of the theater by the police before the scuffle and the arrest, one of the police officers directly asked Burroughs if he had seen the guy at all. Below is the reply of Butch Burroughs to that officer:
"I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."
In other words, Burroughs is asked by an officer if he's seen the suspicious guy. Burroughs said no, he had not seen the guy himself. Burroughs was completely unaware of any suspicious guy inside the theater at all until he learned from Johnny Brewer that a suspicious guy entered the theater. Burroughs hadn't seen the guy for himself.
These are facts. If Burroughs didn't see the guy for himself by 1:47 when the police were inside searching for the suspicious guy, then he could not have possibly sold popcorn to the suspicious guy at 1:15, nor see the suspicious guy enter the theater at 1:06/1:07.
Butch Burroughs was telling lies by 1987 (Marrs) and 1988 (The Men Who Killed Kennedy) and many of the less-informed conspiracy advocates rely on his lies in an attempt to place Saint Lee of the Oswalds inside the theater at a time when he could not have gunned down Tippit.
It's time to put this "Oswald was inside the theater when Tippit was shot" nonsense to bed once and for all.
"I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him." -- Butch Burroughs
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Excellent, Bill!
Thank you!
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"I Haven't Seen Him Myself" -- Butch Burroughs
Many conspiracy advocates like to argue that Lee Oswald could not have killed J.D. Tippit because he (Oswald) was inside the Texas Theater at the time of the Tippit shooting.
They rely on theater concessions man and ticket taker Butch Burroughs in an attempt to show that Oswald was in the theater by 1:07 or so. The claim is that Butch Burroughs sold popcorn to Oswald at around 1:15, the time Tippit was shot.
The argument goes that Burroughs told Jim Marrs (in 1987) that he sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15 and that Burroughs also stated (to Marrs in 1987 and for the documentary The Men Who Killed Kennedy in 1988) that he saw Oswald enter the theater at 1:06/1:07.
However, Burroughs testified to the Warren Commission in 1964 and was directly asked by Joseph Ball if he saw the guy (Oswald) come into the theater and Burroughs replied that he did not see the guy come in. Most assassination enthusiasts are aware of this and the response from most of the conspiracy advocates is that Burroughs didn't actually see the guy enter but knew that he did around 1:06/1:07.
Here's the problem for the conspiracy argument, which rarely gets brought up...
During the brief search of the theater by the police before the scuffle and the arrest, one of the police officers directly asked Burroughs if he had seen the guy at all. Below is the reply of Butch Burroughs to that officer:
"I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."
In other words, Burroughs is asked by an officer if he's seen the suspicious guy. Burroughs said no, he had not seen the guy himself. Burroughs was completely unaware of any suspicious guy inside the theater at all until he learned from Johnny Brewer that a suspicious guy entered the theater. Burroughs hadn't seen the guy for himself.
These are facts. If Burroughs didn't see the guy for himself by 1:47 when the police were inside searching for the suspicious guy, then he could not have possibly sold popcorn to the suspicious guy at 1:15, nor see the suspicious guy enter the theater at 1:06/1:07.
Butch Burroughs was telling lies by 1987 (Marrs) and 1988 (The Men Who Killed Kennedy) and many of the less-informed conspiracy advocates rely on his lies in an attempt to place Saint Lee of the Oswalds inside the theater at a time when he could not have gunned down Tippit.
It's time to put this "Oswald was inside the theater when Tippit was shot" nonsense to bed once and for all.
"I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him." -- Butch Burroughs
Garbage.
What is your source of this?
During the brief search of the theater by the police before the scuffle and the arrest, one of the police officers directly asked Burroughs if he had seen the guy at all. Below is the reply of Butch Burroughs to that officer:
"I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."
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That's a great post as always Bill. I've also thought that Oswald used the stairs upon entry to the TT to head up to the balcony area and cross over to enter the lower level. Thereby avoiding the ticket taker. The early reports about the suspect being in balcony likely derived from Burroughs not having seen him go through the lobby and the experience of Postal that some teenagers had on prior occasions used this tactic to enter the theatre without paying for a ticket. So they assumed he was still up there.
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" Here's the problem for the conspiracy argument, which rarely gets brought up...
During the brief search of the theater by the police before the scuffle and the arrest, one of the police officers directly asked Burroughs if he had seen the guy at all. Below is the reply of Butch Burroughs to that officer:
"I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."
In other words, Burroughs is asked by an officer if he's seen the suspicious guy. Burroughs said no, he had not seen the guy himself. Burroughs was completely unaware of any suspicious guy inside the theater at all until he learned from Johnny Brewer that a suspicious guy entered the theater. Burroughs hadn't seen the guy for himself.
These are facts. If Burroughs didn't see the guy for himself by 1:47 when the police were inside searching for the suspicious guy, then he could not have possibly sold popcorn to the suspicious guy at 1:15, nor see the suspicious guy enter the theater at 1:06/1:07. 2 bill brown
Bill correct me if i am wrong . you mention "SUSPICIOUS GUY " , you also mention the police and Brewer . so in doing so can i assume that you can only be talking about the guy that brewer said he followed and saw turn right and go into the theater ? . this would be at a time lets say in and around 1.40pm give or take a few minutes . this is the same "SUSPICIOUS GUY " reported to have been upstairs in the balcony . so in essence you are saying that Burroughs told the police that he did not see THAT GUY ENTER .
"These are facts. If Burroughs didn't see the guy for himself by 1:47 when the police were inside searching for the suspicious guy, then he could not have possibly sold popcorn to the suspicious guy at 1:15, nor see the suspicious guy enter the theater at 1:06/1:07." Bill brown
YOU DO REALIZE THAT THESE ARE EVENTS SEPERATED BY BY ATLEAST 30 MINUTES ? . you are it would seem trying to say that Burroughs said HE DID NOT SEE "THE SUSPICIOUS GUY " ENTER AT ABOUT 1.45 THUS HE COULD NOT HAVE SOLD POPCORN TO A MAN HE BELIEVED TO BE OSWALD OVER 30 MINUTES PRIOR . again we are talking about two different times , two different events 30 minutes or more apart . if my memory serves (and i am sure i will be told if i am wrong and that is fine ) Burroughs was questioned in testimony about events from about 1.35pm and after that (not prior to that ) , i dont see that mentioned in your post here . as i said if my memory serves me and if i am correct , you would certainly be as aware of this as i am , yet you fail to mention this important information which would only highlight the fact that Burroughs was talking about two very different things over 30 minutes apart . and it needs to be pointed out that Burroughs was not the only patron to place Oswald in that theater before the official Tippit shooting .could they have been wrong and took someone else for Oswald ? anything is possible , they are human but to use the word " LIES " see below quote
"many of the less-informed conspiracy advocates rely on his LIES in an attempt to place Saint Lee of the Oswalds inside the theater at a time when he could not have gunned down Tippit." Bill brown
is in my view rather dishonest given that you know we are talking about two different time lines over 30 minutes apart . you know all to well that in testimony Burroughs was not talking about the time between 1.00 and 1.10 , that he was asked about events after brewer arrived at the ticket booth which was about 1.45 . LN are after all very quick to argue that burroughs in testimony did not mention selling popcorn to oswald at about 1.10 , its been done here often enough , which you would certainly be aware of given your many years on this forum .
now i know michael could say what i said above and more and say it far better and do these events far more justice than i have done , and i invite michael to do just that if he so wishes .
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Garbage.
What is your source of this?
Why call it garbage and then ask for the source? Shouldn't you reserve your comment until AFTER you saw the source?
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Why call it garbage and then ask for the source? Shouldn't you reserve your comment until AFTER you saw the source?
You either have a legitimate source or you don't.
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You either have a legitimate source or you don't.
God forbid you actually read his testimony.
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God forbid you actually read his testimony.
Not much, was there? I know Ball did not ask. "...if a police officer had asked, had he seen the guy at all."
... so there's that.
It certainly doesn't put anything to rest.
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During the brief search of the theater by the police before the scuffle and the arrest, one of the police officers directly asked Burroughs if he had seen the guy at all.
This is blatantly false.
Mr. BALL. Later on the police came in your place?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a ticket?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."
They didn't ask him if he had seen the guy at all, they asked him if he had seen a man come in there without a ticket.
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This is blatantly false.
Mr. BALL. Later on the police came in your place?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a ticket?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."
They didn't ask him if he had seen the guy at all, they asked him if he had seen a man come in there without a ticket.
Point being?
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"I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him." -- Butch Burroughs
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Just for context, there is this bit from Burroughs' WC testimony:
Mr. Ball: On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?
Mr. Burroughs: I went to work at 12.
Mr. Ball: You went to work that day at 12?
Mr. Burroughs: That day at 12 o'clock----yes.
Mr. Ball: And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and some officers, didn't you?
Mr. Burroughs: Yes
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Mr. Ball: Did you see that man come in the theatre?
Mr. Burroughs: No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Ball: Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr. Burroughs: Well, I was----I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.
Note that this is specifically about the guy "in a struggle with officers," i.e. Oswald.
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Just for context, there is this bit from Burroughs' WC testimony:
Mr. Ball: On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?
Mr. Burroughs: I went to work at 12.
Mr. Ball: You went to work that day at 12?
Mr. Burroughs: That day at 12 o'clock----yes.
Mr. Ball: And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and some officers, didn't you?
Mr. Burroughs: Yes
.
Mr. Ball: Did you see that man come in the theatre?
Mr. Burroughs: No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Ball: Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr. Burroughs: Well, I was----I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.
Note that this is specifically about the guy "in a struggle with officers," i.e. Oswald.
Very nice, Mitch. I wish I would have presented it in that manner.
Thanks.
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Nobody disputes that Burroughs said he didn't see the man come in the theater (which is what he was asked). It's false to characterize this as Burroughs saying that he didn't see him AT ALL.
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Nobody disputes that Burroughs said he didn't see the man come in the theater (which is what he was asked). It's false to characterize this as Burroughs saying that he didn't see him AT ALL.
Technically true, but pretty odd that he wouldn't mention any other encounter with the man in question.
Also, as in TMWKK, he says that Oswald entered the Theater "between 1:00 and 1:07" If he knew that, then he saw Oswald come in, which is contradicted by his WC testimony.
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Technically true, but pretty odd that he wouldn't mention any other encounter with the man in question.
Also, as in TMWKK, he says that Oswald entered the Theater "between 1:00 and 1:07" If he knew that, then he saw Oswald come in, which is contradicted by his WC testimony.
Or that was just an estimate based on what Burroughs was doing before and after that time period.
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Never the less, Burroughs sone 20 years later maintained he sold popcorn to Oswald ( or imposter) at 1:15 and his excuse for not mentioned this detail in his WC is that he was afraid to do so.
IDK what to believe anymore for witnesses changing or adding details over the years but since some 40 or more JFK witness who had alternate story to the WC narrative sort of had really weird deaths from 1963-65 , it is legit reason Burroughs might have decided to wait for time to pass before divulging a critical detail that totally exonerates Oswald of having shot Tippit at between 1:07-1:15 at 10th and Patton.
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Or that was just an estimate based on what Burroughs was doing before and after that time period.
Burroughs gave what you might call a 'definitive statement,' and he gives no real indication whatsoever that was just some "estimate based on what Burroughs was doing before and after that time period."
FWIW, while the projectors started to roll at 1:00, the features didn't start until 1:20. The intervening time was filled with the usual mix of previews, ads, and, IIRC, a cartoon. Then, as today, many people showed up late to skip the filler. 1:00-1:07 is therefore an odd time for the guy taking tickets to bury his head in the inventory.