JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Charles Collins on February 21, 2025, 10:37:30 PM
-
Andrew Mason asked how we are supposed to test Dale Myers' results from his animation. Dale explains his methods in detail. So I decided to give it the old college try. My tests are not near as precise as Dale's because I use generic character models and do not have anything nearly as accurate as Dale's model of Dealey Plaza. Please also note that the generic models do no have the ability to move the extremities or turn the heads. I tried to get the areas where the knots of the neckties would be to match as closely as I could reasonably do. Here is my first stab at this:
First I take a close up crop of the Z161 frame and match up the positions of the limo, and the two victims of the gun shots.
(https://i.vgy.me/1BH6cH.gif)
Then I have a "flyover" of the "camera" of the limo to give you some different perspectives of the seating positions.
(https://i.vgy.me/rWawoH.gif)
Finally, here is the seating positions from the viewpoint of Croft at the Z161 point in time.
(https://i.vgy.me/T8qJV5.gif)
The seating positions are exactly the same throughout all of these clips. It appears to me therefore that these positions shown are very close to what they were on 11/22/63.
-
]
Finally, here is the seating positions from the viewpoint of Croft at the Z161 point in time.
(https://i.vgy.me/T8qJV5.gif)
The seating positions are exactly the same throughout all of these clips. It appears to me therefore that these positions shown are very close to what they were on 11/22/63.
Very well done Charles.
Accuracy depends on the model you are using for the car, particularly the relative distances between the back and front seats. Can you provide the dimensions with an overhead view?
Try matching their positions to this photo on Main St.:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xjKrN39/Sightline_Main_doorhandle_handhold.jpg)
-
Very well done Charles.
Accuracy depends on the model you are using for the car, particularly the relative distances between the back and front seats. Can you provide the dimensions with an overhead view?
Try matching their positions to this photo on Main St.:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xjKrN39/Sightline_Main_doorhandle_handhold.jpg)
Thanks Andrew. I will see what I can do with your requests. First, here is an image from approximately directly overhead that shows the two figures and their positions. The limo is positioned so that it is going down the slope of Elm Street at the Z161 position. So this isn't exactly at the same angle as directly overhead, but it is reasonably close.
(https://i.vgy.me/i0ewJo.jpg)
-
You have something way off there. In the 3D model, you have Kennedy's left shoulder aligned with Connally's right shoulder, parallel with the line of the limo. Clearly wrong - look at the photo.
(https://i.ibb.co/rf3nHKCq/k1.png) (https://ibb.co/prQCd6tN)
(https://i.ibb.co/8DXY0DRd/k2.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
-
You have something way off there. In the 3D model, you have Kennedy's left shoulder aligned with Connally's right shoulder, parallel with the line of the limo. Clearly wrong - look at the photo.
(https://i.ibb.co/rf3nHKCq/k1.png) (https://ibb.co/prQCd6tN)
(https://i.ibb.co/8DXY0DRd/k2.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
That’s not the photo I was matching with the overhead POV. It’s still a match for the Z161 & Croft photos. Sorry if I confused you.
-
Andrew Mason asked how we are supposed to test Dale Myers' results from his animation. Dale explains his methods in detail. So I decided to give it the old college try. My tests are not near as precise as Dale's because I use generic character models and do not have anything nearly as accurate as Dale's model of Dealey Plaza. Please also note that the generic models do no have the ability to move the extremities or turn the heads. I tried to get the areas where the knots of the neckties would be to match as closely as I could reasonably do. Here is my first stab at this:
First I take a close up crop of the Z161 frame and match up the positions of the limo, and the two victims of the gun shots.
(https://i.vgy.me/1BH6cH.gif)
Then I have a "flyover" of the "camera" of the limo to give you some different perspectives of the seating positions.
(https://i.vgy.me/rWawoH.gif)
Finally, here is the seating positions from the viewpoint of Croft at the Z161 point in time.
(https://i.vgy.me/T8qJV5.gif)
The seating positions are exactly the same throughout all of these clips. It appears to me therefore that these positions shown are very close to what they were on 11/22/63.
This is great work, congrats! And that your 3D model is also aligned with Croft only strengthens the placement of the two men, because Don Knott's reproduction iirc was matched to the Zapruder film and when matching a 3D model to a 2D image allows for depth errors but when triangulated with another significantly different angle of the same event a much more accurately placement is guaranteed. Thumb1:
Btw your usage of Croft as compared to Zapruder is to be commended because where the men were positioned on Main street is in no way proof of the positions on Elm.
JohnM
-
This is great work, congrats! And that your 3D model is also aligned with Croft only strengthens the placement of the two men, because Don Knott's reproduction iirc was matched to the Zapruder film and when matching a 3D model to a 2D image allows for depth errors but when triangulated with another significantly different angle of the same event a much more accurately placement is guaranteed. Thumb1:
Btw your usage of Croft as compared to Zapruder is to be commended because where the men were positioned on Main street is in no way proof of the positions on Elm.
JohnM
Thanks John, that means a lot coming from you, the graphics king. Dale Myers uses the triangulation methods throughout his film synchronization. So, I have no doubt that would have approached his Elm Street animation using triangulation whenever possible.
Yes, I agree the two men apparently did not sit still very much. And JBC testified that he was turning when he was shot. All this exercise does is show how they were positioned at that point in time. There are a couple of other pairs of photos that I hope to be able to do similar exercises with soon.
-
Amazing graphics. Very accurate.
I think MB theory is plausible, but it doesn't rule out second shooter.
-
Amazing graphics. Very accurate.
I think MB theory is plausible, but it doesn't rule out second shooter.
Thank you Patrick. I wish there was an easy way for everyone to go through the process that I went through to create these graphics. Because actually experiencing that process in a 3D virtual world does tend to get rid of any doubts. But, it took a lot of tedious work that, sadly, most folks just don’t have the time & patience to do.
Once one realizes that the SBT is plausible, it typically changes their outlook on the whole situation.
-
Thanks Andrew. I will see what I can do with your requests. First, here is an image from approximately directly overhead that shows the two figures and their positions. The limo is positioned so that it is going down the slope of Elm Street at the Z161 position. So this isn't exactly at the same angle as directly overhead, but it is reasonably close.
(https://i.vgy.me/i0ewJo.jpg)
I compared your overhead to Jerry Organ's model by overlaying them, keeping the right front door handle in the same position in both. Since your overhead is not an orthographic projection the ends are a bit different but the middle should not be affected very much. Here is what it shows:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqzyLKx6/Charles-Jerry-overhead-compare.gif)
The main differences I see:
1. slope of the side windows on the roof support
2. front to back distance of the back seat.
3. front to back and lateral position of JFK
For some reason you have JBC and JFK crossing their legs, which looks odd and unnatural to me, especially for JBC whose knees were elevated as his jump seat bottom is mounted on the floor.
-
I compared your overhead to Jerry Organ's model by overlaying them, keeping the right front door handle in the same position in both. Since your overhead is not an orthographic projection the ends are a bit different but the middle should not be affected very much. Here is what it shows:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqzyLKx6/Charles-Jerry-overhead-compare.gif)
The main differences I see:
1. slope of the side windows on the roof support
2. front to back distance of the back seat.
3. front to back and lateral position of JFK
For some reason you have JBC and JFK crossing their legs, which looks odd and unnatural to me, especially for JBC whose knees were elevated as his jump seat bottom is mounted on the floor.
I tried to position the "camera directly above the center of the vehicle. If you draw two lines that connect the diagonal corners of the limo, they cross at the back edge of the parade bar and centerline of the car. It only takes slight angle differences to change the appearances. Sadly, the models I am using do not have any way to articulate the extremities or heads. So the crossed legs cannot be changed. We have no way to know how the legs were positioned based on the photographic record (as best I remember). So, I don't consider this to be a major problem.
-
Question: in Andrew Masons Z193 1st shot theory, where did the bullet that hit JFK in the high part of his back and exited thru his throat go after exiting?
If the 2nd shot is around Z270, how does that shot hit JC in his left thigh when JFKs body is leaning left and Jackie is embracing him?
Could Dale Myers computer program work the 193 trajectory and the Z270 trajectory out because I’m not sure that Andrew’s sketchy diagrams are that accurate.
I’m also questioning if a Z270 2nd shot that hits only JCs left thigh at 2000 ft/ sec would have stopped and caused only a shallow wound rather than going completely thru the leg and probably into the seat of Kellerman.
-
Question: in Andrew Masons Z193 1st shot theory, where did the bullet that hit JFK in the high part of his back and exited thru his throat go after exiting?
He says after exiting JFK's throat it penetrated Connally's left thigh, somehow got its ass-end deformed, left a tiny lead fragment in JBC's femur, and ended up in Parkland Hospital as the bullet we know as CE-399.
-
Question: in Andrew Masons Z193 1st shot theory, where did the bullet that hit JFK in the high part of his back and exited thru his throat go after exiting?
The trajectory and wound characteristics are consistent with the wound in JBC's thigh.
If the 2nd shot is around Z270, how does that shot hit JC in his left thigh when JFKs body is leaning left and Jackie is embracing him?
That makes no sense. JFK has already been reacting to his neck wound for several seconds by that point.
I’m also questioning if a Z270 2nd shot that hits only JCs left thigh at 2000 ft/ sec would have stopped and caused only a shallow wound rather than going completely thru the leg and probably into the seat of Kellerman.
According to all the evidence the second shot struck JBC in the right armpit.
-
Ok , so in Andrew Masons scenario, at about Z270 that’s the 2nd shot that goes past JFKs body yes? And that’s because JFK is kind of leaning leftwards towards Jackie at this point?
So this 270 shot goes into JCs back and then it exits and hits JC in his right wrist bone and goes thru the hand yes?
And if yes , then where did that Z270 bullet go?