JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Lance Payette on March 14, 2025, 12:59:44 PM
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The lunatic fringe at the Ed Forum - notably one of the current moderators, but he's not alone - is obsessed with the idea that internet forums and specifically JFKA forums are literally teeming with paid CIA disinformation agents posing as Lone Nutters. The EF loons worship at the altar of someone named Cass R. Sunstein. This was a new name to me, but apparently he suggested the idea years ago.
Because I'm sane, I find this notion wildly implausible. If it's true, hopefully Elon and DOGE will soon get to the bottom of it and stop the CIA from wasting $30 billion annually on internet trolls so the money can be better spent on a fleet of Tesla cybertrucks.
In the meantime, however, yours truly would like to get in on the gig if possible. Are any of my fellow Lone Nutters here on the payroll? How much are you paid? Who do I contact? Just send me a PM if outing yourself in public would violate your contract and cause your name to be added to the list of Mysterious JFK-Related Deaths.
Let's be serious here, folks: If the CIA actually had the inclination and resources to sponsor legions of internet trolls, do you really think said trolls would be posing as Lone Nutters? Or would they pose as absolute lunatics, people who believe things like Harvey & Lee and Prayer Person and Jim Garrison and Other Assorted Nonsense, thereby embarrassing the JFKA community and causing all CT efforts to be laughed at?
That's right, The Caped Factoid Buster hereby accuses the EF loons and anyone here of similar CT ilk of being CIA disinformation agents! Prove you aren't or shut up. I'm looking at you, EF forum moderators, because there is no way anyone this side of an asylum actually believes the absurdities you purport to believe. Promoting Harvey & Lee is, ipso facto, proof that you receive $750 a month from the CIA and have a red telephone with a direct line to Langley. Prove you don't!
(On the small chance that any fellow Lone Nutters actually are on the payroll, however, do let me know how it works because the price of Old Rasputin Russian Imperial Ale has simply gone through the roof since The Donald was elected.)
Anyway, this video was recently posted at EF and will confirm your darkest suspicions:
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So the idea is that we have government disinformation agents online spreading lies and working against the conspiracy cause, to smother the truth. And then the documents revealing the conspiracy withheld for decades by members of six Administrations (at least). Then to get the conspiracy hat trick: Secret teams of assassins roaming the country and on orders killing witnesses. Hat trick. I want a Stetson hat like Connally had.
Essentially then we've had a corrupt, illegitimate government for more than half a century, a government led by people who've covered up for the coup makers who killed JFK. This is their view of what's happened over these years (people like Oliver Stone, James Douglas and Jim Garrison make this type of claim).
This is why I pointed out awhile ago that it's ironic that some of the same conspiracy people (the leftwing of the conspiracy movement) who say the above, who say democracy was stolen from us in 1963 when JFK was assassinated in a fascist coup and that this theft has been covered up by subsequent governments/Administrations since then, also say they are worried that Trump will steal democracy from us.
So it's going to be stolen twice? Trump will steal it from the fascists who stole it from us when they killed JFK and covered up for that act? Is that good? Bad? How does this go exactly? It seems the MAGA conspiracists like it; the leftwing conspiracists not so much.
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Why would anyone from the US government care about the JFK assassination over 60 years later? No one in the US government today could have had any involvement. It is paranoid lunacy derived from necessity. JFK CTers need the ongoing cover up to explain why they can never prove their pet theory. Like UFO believers, the excuse is always that the government is covering up the evidence. The circle of lunacy goes round and round. Even if the US government was involved in an endless JFK disinformation campaign, why would they waste their time on Internet forums that are populated with loons who spread more misinformation than any government could ever dream of?
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Why would anyone from the US government care about the JFK assassination over 60 years later? No one in the US government today could have had any involvement. It is paranoid lunacy derived from necessity. JFK CTers need the ongoing cover up to explain why they can never prove their pet theory. Like UFO believers, the excuse is always that the government is covering up the evidence. The circle of lunacy goes round and round. Even if the US government was involved in an endless JFK disinformation campaign, why would they waste their time on Internet forums that are populated with loons who spread more misinformation than any government could ever dream of?
Several posters over at the JFK Edu Forum say you're a disinformation agent. Wait until Musk finds out about this waste of money. That black budget is going to get quite a whacking.
Heck, I should get at least 10% of whatever you get. I take Paypal.
Make it 25%.
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Anyone who rules out of hand CIA or other government operatives from trying to influence the US public, doesn't know much about what the CIA has done in other countries over the decades... Israel, Canada, Russia, China, et al., have probably learned a few things from our agencies!
Why would anyone from the US government care about the JFK assassination over 60 years later?
Perhaps we should ask the CIA officials and Mike Pompeo and others in government who suggested to Trump he should not release all the documents related to the assassination!
"During President Donald Trump's first term, Mike Pompeo, then serving as CIA Director, advised against the full release of certain John F. Kennedy assassination files. Pompeo expressed concerns that releasing these documents could compromise national security by exposing sensitive intelligence operations and sources."
Yeah, the cover-up continues!
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Anyone who rules out of hand CIA or other government operatives from trying to influence the US public, doesn't know much about what the CIA has done in other countries over the decades... Israel, Canada, Russia, China, et al., have probably learned a few things from our agencies!
Why would anyone from the US government care about the JFK assassination over 60 years later?
Perhaps we should ask the CIA officials and Mike Pompeo and others in government who suggested to Trump he should not release all the documents related to the assassination!
"During President Donald Trump's first term, Mike Pompeo, then serving as CIA Director, advised against the full release of certain John F. Kennedy assassination files. Pompeo expressed concerns that releasing these documents could compromise national security by exposing sensitive intelligence operations and sources."
Yeah, the cover-up continues!
It makes sense to you, does it, that the CIA does this by populating obscure internet forums with LN trolls who feverishly attack Conspiracy Factoids as though they were playing Whack-a-Mole because - what? - the CIA is afraid that one of the 47 distinct and irreconcilable conspiracy theories will get too close to the Dark Truth? Really, ya think?
How, in your apparently CT-oriented philosophy, does the danger of "compromising national security by exposing sensitive intelligence operations and sources" inevitably equate to "continuing the JFKA cover-up"? Is it not likely that the perceived danger has precisely nothing to do with the JFKA?
I am perhaps just in love with my own theory, but I truly believe the goofs comprising the CT community would be far more likely candidates for being disinformation agents than my fellow Lone Nutters. There are parallels for this in the UFO community, where certain researchers stumbled upon what actually were military operations and were subsequently led down a garden path that left them looking as nutty as any Harvey & Lee fan. It wasn't because they were "too close to the truth about the Alien Presence," as the UFO True Believers imagined, but because they were too close to matters of genuine military secrecy.
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It makes sense to you, does it, that the CIA does this by populating obscure internet forums with LN trolls who feverishly attack Conspiracy Factoids as though they were playing Whack-a-Mole because - what? - the CIA is afraid that one of the 47 distinct and irreconcilable conspiracy theories will get too close to the Dark Truth? Really, ya think?
How, in your apparently CT-oriented philosophy, does the danger of "compromising national security by exposing sensitive intelligence operations and sources" inevitably equate to "continuing the JFKA cover-up"? Is it not likely that the perceived danger has precisely nothing to do with the JFKA?
I am perhaps just in love with my own theory, but I truly believe the goofs comprising the CT community would be far more likely candidates for being disinformation agents than my fellow Lone Nutters. There are parallels for this in the UFO community, where certain researchers stumbled upon what actually were military operations and were subsequently led down a garden path that left them looking as nutty as any Harvey & Lee fan. It wasn't because they were "too close to the truth about the Alien Presence," as the UFO True Believers imagined, but because they were too close to matters of genuine military secrecy.
I'm not in love with any theory, as you say you are... I'm in love with the truth of the matter... and if we learned anything from the last presidency, it's that government officials, elected and appointed, will lie, deceive, obfuscate and pardon... in order to keep themselves, friends and family from being investigated... and to keep the truth from coming out...
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Anyone who rules out of hand CIA or other government operatives from trying to influence the US public, doesn't know much about what the CIA has done in other countries over the decades... Israel, Canada, Russia, China, et al., have probably learned a few things from our agencies!
Why would anyone from the US government care about the JFK assassination over 60 years later?
Perhaps we should ask the CIA officials and Mike Pompeo and others in government who suggested to Trump he should not release all the documents related to the assassination!
"During President Donald Trump's first term, Mike Pompeo, then serving as CIA Director, advised against the full release of certain John F. Kennedy assassination files. Pompeo expressed concerns that releasing these documents could compromise national security by exposing sensitive intelligence operations and sources."
Yeah, the cover-up continues!
I don't doubt that the US and many other countries have programs designed to influence public opinion. I just don't see any incentive, however, to do so in the JFK assassination context 6o years after the fact. Why bother? What difference does it make to anyone in government today what anyone believes happened in 1963? Most of them weren't even born. Intelligence agencies are notoriously secretive by nature. They don't want to reveal what they had for lunch today. The JFK files could have information relating to sources and methods that I can understand that they might not want to reveal even after 60 years. It's not because they are engaged in an endless JFK conspiracy cover up, though.
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I'm not in love with any theory, as you say you are... I'm in love with the truth of the matter... and if we learned anything from the last presidency, it's that government officials, elected and appointed, will lie, deceive, obfuscate and pardon... in order to keep themselves, friends and family from being investigated... and to keep the truth from coming out...
Bear in mind that in the case of the JFKA you are talking about an incredible diversity of Presidents, CIA Directors, Directors of National Intelligence and whatnot, representing both political parties and widely divergent backgrounds, over a period of 60 years - ALL hellbent to keep the lid on the Dark Truth about the JFKA??? I once started a thread at the Ed Forum about who all these folks actually were and how absurd the notion that they were all in cahoots really is. For that to have any plausibility, the Dark Truth would have to be something along the lines of "JFK was an alien and the planet will be incinerated in five seconds if this is ever revealed" (wait, is that an actual theory? was Umbrella Man an alien?).
Anyway, just in case anyone is interested, here is one of the classic examples from ufology. For "Bennewitz," substitute "Harvey & Lee fan" and you'll get the idea. The source is https://social-epistemology.com/2023/08/10/conspiracy-theory-and-the-bodyguard-of-lies-the-bennewitz-matter-mark-d-west/.
According to multiple sources, a former special agent for the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Richard Doty, said that in the 1980s, he was given the assignment to create fake documents and give false information to UFO researchers, including a scientist and entrepreneur named Paul Bennewitz.
In early 1980, Bennewitz became involved in observing and filming objects which he had sighted on the ground and in the air near Kirtland Air Force Base and the Manzano mountain range near Albuquerque, New Mexico. Bennewitz, by dint of documents provided by a man named Richard Doty, came to believe that he had stumbled upon a conspiracy by the government to keep secret knowledge they had of alien contact in which they were engaged, including technology transfers, the construction of UFO bases, and governmental acquiescence in alien abduction of humans; these stories were widely distributed within the UFO community and became part of the lore of that group, finding widespread distribution in popular media. The conspiracy in which Bennewitz was actually embroiled was a disinformation campaign by the AFOSI and Doty, their agent, to conceal the development of secret technologies at a nearby base by providing counterfactual information to Bennewitz; that information drove Bennewitz to a nervous breakdown. Despite Doty’s admission of the AFOSI conspiracy, the tales concocted by Doty and others in the AFOSI have come to serve as the basis for a variety of broadly-reported UFO 'contactee' stories up to the current day.
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I'm not in love with any theory, as you say you are... I'm in love with the truth of the matter... and if we learned anything from the last presidency, it's that government officials, elected and appointed, will lie, deceive, obfuscate and pardon... in order to keep themselves, friends and family from being investigated... and to keep the truth from coming out...
Wait a minute! You're missing the whole point. You and I are actually in "violent agreement," as a friend of mine always says. I absolutely agree that government officials are lying, obfuscating, pardoning ne'er-do-wells. I absolutely agree they may well resort to disinformation tactics. I simply believe - and I'm sure you'll agree after you've pondered it deeply - that in the case of the JFKA said disinformation agents are far more likely to be promoting wacky theories like Harvey & Lee and Prayer Alien than attempting to prop up the Lone Nut narrative.
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Wait a minute! You're missing the whole point. You and I are actually in "violent agreement," as a friend of mine always says. I absolutely agree that government officials are lying, obfuscating, pardoning ne'er-do-wells. I absolutely agree they may well resort to disinformation tactics. I simply believe - and I'm sure you'll agree after you've pondered it deeply - that in the case of the JFKA said disinformation agents are far more likely to be promoting wacky theories like Harvey & Lee and Prayer Alien than attempting to prop up the Lone Nut narrative.
Lance... I'm with you... Thanks for clarifying and being cordial until I fully understood your thoughts...
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The lunatic fringe at the Ed Forum - notably one of the current moderators, but he's not alone - is obsessed with the idea that internet forums and specifically JFKA forums are literally teeming with paid CIA disinformation agents posing as Lone Nutters. The EF loons worship at the altar of someone named Cass R. Sunstein. This was a new name to me, but apparently he suggested the idea years ago.
Because I'm sane, I find this notion wildly implausible. If it's true, hopefully Elon and DOGE will soon get to the bottom of it and stop the CIA from wasting $30 billion annually on internet trolls so the money can be better spent on a fleet of Tesla cybertrucks.
In the meantime, however, yours truly would like to get in on the gig if possible. Are any of my fellow Lone Nutters here on the payroll? How much are you paid? Who do I contact? Just send me a PM if outing yourself in public would violate your contract and cause your name to be added to the list of Mysterious JFK-Related Deaths.
Let's be serious here, folks: If the CIA actually had the inclination and resources to sponsor legions of internet trolls, do you really think said trolls would be posing as Lone Nutters? Or would they pose as absolute lunatics, people who believe things like Harvey & Lee and Prayer Person and Jim Garrison and Other Assorted Nonsense, thereby embarrassing the JFKA community and causing all CT efforts to be laughed at?
That's right, The Caped Factoid Buster hereby accuses the EF loons and anyone here of similar CT ilk of being CIA disinformation agents! Prove you aren't or shut up. I'm looking at you, EF forum moderators, because there is no way anyone this side of an asylum actually believes the absurdities you purport to believe. Promoting Harvey & Lee is, ipso facto, proof that you receive $750 a month from the CIA and have a red telephone with a direct line to Langley. Prove you don't!
(On the small chance that any fellow Lone Nutters actually are on the payroll, however, do let me know how it works because the price of Old Rasputin Russian Imperial Ale has simply gone through the roof since The Donald was elected.)
Anyway, this video was recently posted at EF and will confirm your darkest suspicions:
My handler told me not to tell you.
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I don't doubt that the US and many other countries have programs designed to influence public opinion. I just don't see any incentive, however, to do so in the JFK assassination context 6o years after the fact. Why bother? What difference does it make to anyone in government today what anyone believes happened in 1963? Most of them weren't even born. Intelligence agencies are notoriously secretive by nature. They don't want to reveal what they had for lunch today. The JFK files could have information relating to sources and methods that I can understand that they might not want to reveal even after 60 years. It's not because they are engaged in an endless JFK conspiracy cover up, though.
What difference does it make to anyone in government today what anyone believes happened in 1963?
Isn't that the ultimate question?
Which raises another: Why have there been persistent efforts to keep the public from knowing all there is to know about the assassination of our president, which happened over 60 years ago?
Yeah... these are the questions.
And another question: "Why shouldn't we know "the sources?"
Every law-abiding citizen should want to know "the sources" involved in either the assassination of their president or the cover-up... and should want to know "the methods" used for either the assassination or the cover-up or perhaps, the framing of Oswald.
To claim that such secrecy of "sources" and "methods" is an effort to protect national security is most likely the reason given by those who are trying to hide something - to protect prominent names or government agencies or some other entity.
Furthermore, national security is jeopardized MOST when "sources" and "methods" are protected from exposure.
THAT is what jeopardizes national security... as well as the security of every citizen who might be framed and blamed.
And who has any trust in anything government officials say, when the highest ranking law enforcement official dictates a memo THE DAY AFTER the assassination, that says:
(On November 23, 1963) "The thing I am concerned about, and so is Mr. Katzenbach, is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin."
THE DAY AFTER!
If that doesn't concern you... Whew!... I'm not sure any rational conversation about this can be productive...
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Does anyone here believe that Bugliosi was CIA sponsered?
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Lance... I'm with you... Thanks for clarifying and being cordial until I fully understood your thoughts...
I think it's pretty unlikely the CIA would concern itself with the JFKA at all, at least at the level of hiring faux Lone Nutters to haunt internet forums. But if they did, it makes far more sense that the disinformation agents would be H&L types who embarrass the entire CT effort. The Paul Bennewitz case really is instructive. When he stumbled upon secret military activities, the AFOSI didn't simply try to convince him these weren't secret military activities. No, they led him into near-insanity with tales of alien treaties, underground alien bases and all the rest. The Dulce Underground Alien Base was a major, major story in the UFO community at the time and still haunts more serious UFO research efforts. It was clearly intended to disrupt and embarrass - and it DID, in spades. In fact, I'm going to start a thread about the uncanny parallels between the Roswell UFO case and the JFKA. Most CTers have no real idea as to how the Conspiracy Game operates in other arenas - i.e., exactly the way it operates in the JFKA. This doesn't mean there wasn't a conspiracy, but it is reason for caution before diving headfirst down the conspiracy rabbit hole.
I try to have fun with this because the CT community is so grimly humorless and it never, ever occurs to them that the lunatic fringes of their own community are where CIA disinformation agents, if there were any, would likely be found.
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What difference does it make to anyone in government today what anyone believes happened in 1963?
Isn't that the ultimate question?
Which raises another: Why have there been persistent efforts to keep the public from knowing all there is to know about the assassination of our president, which happened over 60 years ago?
Yeah... these are the questions.
And another question: "Why shouldn't we know "the sources?"
Every law-abiding citizen should want to know "the sources" involved in either the assassination of their president or the cover-up... and should want to know "the methods" used for either the assassination or the cover-up or perhaps, the framing of Oswald.
To claim that such secrecy of "sources" and "methods" is an effort to protect national security is most likely the reason given by those who are trying to hide something - to protect prominent names or government agencies or some other entity.
Furthermore, national security is jeopardized MOST when "sources" and "methods" are protected from exposure.
THAT is what jeopardizes national security... as well as the security of every citizen who might be framed and blamed.
And who has any trust in anything government officials say, when the highest ranking law enforcement official dictates a memo THE DAY AFTER the assassination, that says:
(On November 23, 1963) "The thing I am concerned about, and so is Mr. Katzenbach, is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin."
THE DAY AFTER!
If that doesn't concern you... Whew!... I'm not sure any rational conversation about this can be productive...
It is possible that intelligence sources that were used to investigate Oswald's connection to Russia, Cuba, and the mob are still alive. The lives of those people and their families might be at risk if their identities became known. Again, though, intelligence agencies are secretive by nature. Their inclination is to never disclose any information. Nothing good can come from that from their perspective. You are conflating that with having something to hide about the JFK assassination. They are not the same thing. Once the remaining documents are released and they do not provide any evidence of a conspiracy, will you be satsified that LHO acted alone? My guess is no.
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I'm not sure anyone in the US government is concerned about the lives of people in Russia or Cuba who might have been connected to Oswald or JFK's assassination in any way.
The most likely concern to explain all the secrecy is to protect the reputation of prominent families here, or the reputation of the agencies who pulled off a coup and pinned it on Oswald.
When the top law enforcement official dictates a memo THE DAY AFTER the assassination, that says:
(On November 23, 1963) "The thing I am concerned about, and so is Mr. Katzenbach, is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin." - J. Edgar Hoover
THE DAY AFTER!
If that doesn't concern you... Whew!... I'm not sure any rational conversation about this can be productive... and I wouldn't suspect you to accept a conspiracy at the top level if MORE evidence is produced to implicate the guilty parties.
Did I say, THE DAY AFTER!?
Yes, THE DAY AFTER!
Hoover had no concern to discover the truth of the matter. A rush to judgment and a rush to pin it all on Oswald.
If that doesn't concern you and make you want to investigate Hoover and others at the top level of government, you have little or no concern for truth and justice... and no concern for the principle of "innocent, until proven guilty."
There's your evidence of conspiracy, if you choose to accept it.
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I'm not sure anyone in the US government is concerned about the lives of people in Russia or Cuba who might have been connected to Oswald or JFK's assassination in any way.
The most likely concern to explain all the secrecy is to protect the reputation of prominent families here, or the reputation of the agencies who pulled off a coup and pinned it on Oswald.
When the top law enforcement official dictates a memo THE DAY AFTER the assassination, that says:
(On November 23, 1963) "The thing I am concerned about, and so is Mr. Katzenbach, is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin." - J. Edgar Hoover
THE DAY AFTER!
If that doesn't concern you... Whew!... I'm not sure any rational conversation about this can be productive... and I wouldn't suspect you to accept a conspiracy at the top level if MORE evidence is produced to implicate the guilty parties.
Did I say, THE DAY AFTER!?
Yes, THE DAY AFTER!
Hoover had no concern to discover the truth of the matter. A rush to judgment and a rush to pin it all on Oswald.
If that doesn't concern you and make you want to investigate Hoover and others at the top level of government, you have little or no concern for truth and justice... and no concern for the principle of "innocent, until proven guilty."
There's your evidence of conspiracy, if you choose to accept it.
The US is not interested in the lives of intelligence sources who aided them? I doubt that would give much confidence to anyone who is thinking about providing the US with information in the future when they find out the policy is to reveal their names at some point. There were legitimate reasons to convince the public that Oswald was guilty. First and foremost, because he WAS guilty. He did it. The evidence leaves no doubt. Second, you would not WWIII to break out because some paranoid conspiracy theorists convinced the public that Russia or Cuba was involved when they were not. Those are very legitimate and compelling reasons.
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The US is not interested in the lives of intelligence sources who aided them? I doubt that would give much confidence to anyone who is thinking about providing the US with information in the future when they find out the policy is to reveal their names at some point. There were legitimate reasons to convince the public that Oswald was guilty. First and foremost, because he WAS guilty. He did it. The evidence leaves no doubt. Second, you would not WWIII to break out because some paranoid conspiracy theorists convinced the public that Russia or Cuba was involved when they were not. Those are very legitimate and compelling reasons.
So, here you are taking up for Hoover, saying he had "legitimate reasons to convince the public that Oswald was guilty."
And the first reason is "because he [Oswald] WAS guilty. He did it. The evidence leaves no doubt."
Do you really think Hoover had all the evidence within ONE DAY to justify condemning Oswald? And that Hoover knew from the evidence he did it, and there was "no doubt?"
It's people who rush to judgment like this who are a threat to national security.
No... you've got the narrative wrong. Hoover was not trying to protect the US... He was most likely trying to protect himself and his cronies from being exposed.
To hell with justice, let Oswald be condemned.
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The lunatic fringe at the Ed Forum - notably one of the current moderators, but he's not alone - is obsessed with the idea that internet forums and specifically JFKA forums are literally teeming with paid CIA disinformation agents posing as Lone Nutters. The EF loons worship at the altar of someone named Cass R. Sunstein. This was a new name to me, but apparently he suggested the idea years ago.
Because I'm sane, I find this notion wildly implausible. If it's true, hopefully Elon and DOGE will soon get to the bottom of it and stop the CIA from wasting $30 billion annually on internet trolls so the money can be better spent on a fleet of Tesla cybertrucks.
In the meantime, however, yours truly would like to get in on the gig if possible. Are any of my fellow Lone Nutters here on the payroll? How much are you paid? Who do I contact? Just send me a PM if outing yourself in public would violate your contract and cause your name to be added to the list of Mysterious JFK-Related Deaths.
Let's be serious here, folks: If the CIA actually had the inclination and resources to sponsor legions of internet trolls, do you really think said trolls would be posing as Lone Nutters? Or would they pose as absolute lunatics, people who believe things like Harvey & Lee and Prayer Person and Jim Garrison and Other Assorted Nonsense, thereby embarrassing the JFKA community and causing all CT efforts to be laughed at?
That's right, The Caped Factoid Buster hereby accuses the EF loons and anyone here of similar CT ilk of being CIA disinformation agents! Prove you aren't or shut up. I'm looking at you, EF forum moderators, because there is no way anyone this side of an asylum actually believes the absurdities you purport to believe. Promoting Harvey & Lee is, ipso facto, proof that you receive $750 a month from the CIA and have a red telephone with a direct line to Langley. Prove you don't!
(On the small chance that any fellow Lone Nutters actually are on the payroll, however, do let me know how it works because the price of Old Rasputin Russian Imperial Ale has simply gone through the roof since The Donald was elected.)
Anyway, this video was recently posted at EF and will confirm your darkest suspicions:
To be frank, the pay is not very good. I could do a lot better in the private sector.
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So, here you are taking up for Hoover, saying he had "legitimate reasons to convince the public that Oswald was guilty."
And the first reason is "because he [Oswald] WAS guilty. He did it. The evidence leaves no doubt."
Do you really think Hoover had all the evidence within ONE DAY to justify condemning Oswald? And that Hoover knew from the evidence he did it, and there was "no doubt?"
It's people who rush to judgment like this who are a threat to national security.
No... you've got the narrative wrong. Hoover was not trying to protect the US... He was most likely trying to protect himself and his cronies from being exposed.
To hell with justice, let Oswald be condemned.
All the agencies and people accused of being involved with a conspiracy were not connected, so how was this planned?
Hoover and FBI were behind it?
The CIA had Oswald as an employee?
The rich Texas oilmen profited?
The Dallas Police planted evidence?
The SS were relaxed with their security and stole the body?
The medical autopsy was a fraud?
Various private citizens lied, for what reason? Fame maybe, Fortune definitely not.
Whereas on the other hand if it's just Oswald, there is no need for any accusations, Oswald did it with a side helping of a little human incompetence which is to be expected with an investigation with so many hands involved. In fact having so many differing agencies would have kept everyone as honest as they possibly could be, because who knew who was looking over their shoulder!
JohnM
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All the agencies and people accused of being involved with a conspiracy were not connected, so how was this planned?
Hoover and FBI were behind it?
The CIA had Oswald as an employee?
The rich Texas oilmen profited?
The Dallas Police planted evidence?
The SS were relaxed with their security and stole the body?
The medical autopsy was a fraud?
Various private citizens lied, for what reason? Fame maybe, Fortune definitely not.
Whereas on the other hand if it's just Oswald, there is no need for any accusations, Oswald did it with a side helping of a little human incompetence which is to be expected with an investigation with so many hands involved. In fact having so many differing agencies would have kept everyone as honest as they possibly could be, because who knew who was looking over their shoulder!
JohnM
Larry Hancock's point of long ago is one of the most rational things to come out of the CT community: There undoubtedly was a post-assassination cover-up because of the massive incompetence in allowing the JFKA to happen. It was a CYA cover-up, not an assassination-related cover-up. The post-assassination cover-up and the assassination itself were two entirely separate events. And the post-assassination cover-up was not a conspiracy per se but rather multiple agencies covering their own incompetence. Being freed of the need to connect the assassination itself to the scrambling that occurred thereafter, and of the need to view the post-assassination scrambling as a massive conspiracy, is one key to rationality in thinking about the JFKA.
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From the day Oswald arrived in Dallas on a bus from Mexico City - October 3 - to the day of the assassination almost two months later (50 days to be exact) no one in the government knew where he lived during the week. They had no idea what he did or went during those weekdays and nights. And it was only on October 29 that Hosty said he learned that he was living with the Paines on weekends. And the first time he ever talked to Oswald was in the police station after his arrest.
So for almost two months he was off their radar. Incompetence, bureaucracy, sloppy work: real human beings and not these sinister all-powerful groups that conspiracists see everywhere. Even today.
As to the alleged decades old coverups (plural): let's put it this way. The idea that Republicans and Democrats, who hate each other like two religious sects, could or would agree to cover this up all of these years, and remain silent about it, is utterly and completely bonkers. It cannot be done. Human nature and politics and the way people behave forbids it. I can see how some conspiracy believers in the UK or abroad could see this happening. They don't know what we know, how the government on all levels operate. But no American who knows how the two parties loathe one another, who know about the bureaucracy we have, the personality conflicts, the turf fights, the incompetence of how government works (as I noted above on their non-monitoring of Oswald) should believe this.
But somehow they do.
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CORRECTION:
According to the 1976 Senate Select Committee investigating the investigation of the JFK assassination, the words of FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, stating his concern that something be issued to convince the public that Oswald killed the president, came from a recorded phone conversation between Hoover and White House Aide Walter Jenkins, on November 24, immediately following Oswald's murder by Jack Ruby...
The thing I am most concerned about, and so is Mr. Katzen-
bach, is having something issued so we can convince the
public that Oswald is the real assassin.[/size]
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So, here you are taking up for Hoover, saying he had "legitimate reasons to convince the public that Oswald was guilty."
And the first reason is "because he [Oswald] WAS guilty. He did it. The evidence leaves no doubt."
Do you really think Hoover had all the evidence within ONE DAY to justify condemning Oswald? And that Hoover knew from the evidence he did it, and there was "no doubt?"
It's people who rush to judgment like this who are a threat to national security.
No... you've got the narrative wrong. Hoover was not trying to protect the US... He was most likely trying to protect himself and his cronies from being exposed.
To hell with justice, let Oswald be condemned.
The Dallas PD had enough evidence within 24 hours to charge Oswald with the crime. The basic evidence is unchanged 60 years later. Oswald did it.
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The Dallas PD had enough evidence withing 24 hours to charge Oswald with the crime. The basic evidence is unchanged 60 years later. Oswald did it.
No... the basic cover-up is unchanged...
Whoever says they had enough evidence within 24 hours to condemn Oswald, is condemning the Dallas PD with a rush to judgment...
Here's some helpful reading on Hoover... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4211.0.html
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No... the basic cover-up is unchanged...
Whoever says they had enough evidence within 24 hours to condemn Oswald, is condemning the Dallas PD with a rush to judgment...
Here's some helpful reading on Hoover... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4211.0.html
Let's see. Within 24 hours they knew that LHO worked in the building from which the shots were fired, that his rifle was found there, that he had fled the scene, got a gun and killed a police officer, and that he was a political nut. A rock-solid case based on the evidence. There was no rush to judgment. There was an assessment of the evidence which overwhelmingly linked Oswald to the crime for which he was charged within 24 hours. That is unchanged to this day.
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Let's see. Within 24 hours they knew that LHO worked in the building from which the shots were fired, that his rifle was found there, that he had fled the scene, got a gun and killed a police officer, and that he was a political nut. A rock-solid case based on the evidence. There was no rush to judgment. There was an assessment of the evidence which overwhelmingly linked Oswald to the crime for which he was charged within 24 hours. That is unchanged to this day.
Utter BS
Within 24 hours they knew that LHO worked in the building from which the shots were fired, that his rifle was found there, that he had fled the scene, got a gun and killed a police officer, and that he was a political nut.
At best, that would have made Oswald a suspect.
There was an assessment of the evidence which overwhelmingly linked Oswald to the crime for which he was charged within 24 hours.
Charging somebody for a crime doesn't automatically mean that person's guilty.
There was no rush to judgment.
LOL
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Let's see. Within 24 hours they knew that LHO worked in the building from which the shots were fired, that his rifle was found there, that he had fled the scene, got a gun and killed a police officer, and that he was a political nut. A rock-solid case based on the evidence. There was no rush to judgment. There was an assessment of the evidence which overwhelmingly linked Oswald to the crime for which he was charged within 24 hours. That is unchanged to this day.
Agreed.
I will also add, evidence discovered by Satur.day evening of conciseness of guilt.
Getting on and off a slow bus.
Getting out of his cab way past his rooming house.
Hiding in a theatre.
Resisting arrest.
Trying to kill more Police.
Two FBI agents Hosty and Bookout were at the Friday and Satur.day interrogations and heard Oswald deny purchasing or owning the rifle and Oswald denying the backyard photos and refusing to take a polygraph.
JohnM
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Agreed.
I will also add, evidence discovered by Satur.day evening of conciseness of guilt.
Getting on and off a slow bus.
Getting out of his cab way past his rooming house.
Hiding in a theatre.
Resisting arrest.
Trying to kill more Police.
Two FBI agents Hosty and Bookout were at the Friday and Satur.day interrogations and heard Oswald deny purchasing or owning the rifle and Oswald denying the backyard photos and refusing to take a polygraph.
JohnM
Would you like to live in a country where anybody can be declared guilty by the highest law enforcement officer before any credible investigation has taken place?
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Would you like to live in a country where anybody can be declared guilty by the highest law enforcement officer before any credible investigation has taken place?
I don't know what time on Satur.day the LBJ Hoover call took place but this is what Hoover had to work with by the Satur.day evening.
Rifle found on 6th floor belonged to Oswald.
The blanket that contained the rifle was empty on the afternoon of the assassination.
Robert A Frazier just before midnight on the 22nd received CE399 and two bullet fragments from the Limo and started work the next morning and determined that all fragments passed through Oswald's rifle.
The shells in the sniper's nest were exclusively linked to Oswald's rifle.
Linnie Mae Randall told the FBI that the bag was 3 feet long.
Frazier says Oswald took a long bag to work.
The Bag found on 6th floor with Oswald's prints was found on the 6th floor.
Oswald immediately flees and takes a bus, get's off after a couple of blocks then takes a cab to a location way past his Rooming house.
Oswald kills a cop.
Oswald resists arrest and tries to kill more cops.
Oswald has an alias that bought the rifle.
Oswald denies buying a rifle.
Oswald denies owning a rifle.
Oswald refusing to take a polygraph.
Oswald says that somebody put his head on someone else's body in the backyard photo.
Oswald defected to Russia.
I think Hoover had every right to declare Oswald as guilty because in anyone's book this is powerful solid evidence that so far has withstood the test of time, CT's have rightfully questioned some of this evidence but so far haven't disproved any of it, much less provide a viable credible alternative.
JohnM
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I don't know what time on Satur.day the LBJ Hoover call took place but this is what Hoover had to work with by the Satur.day evening.
Rifle found on 6th floor belonged to Oswald.
The blanket that contained the rifle was empty on the afternoon of the assassination.
Robert A Frazier just before midnight on the 22nd received CE399 and two bullet fragments from the Limo and started work the next morning and determined that all fragments passed through Oswald's rifle.
The shells in the sniper's nest were exclusively linked to Oswald's rifle.
Linnie Mae Randall told the FBI that the bag was 3 feet long.
Frazier says Oswald took a long bag to work.
The Bag found on 6th floor with Oswald's prints was found on the 6th floor.
Oswald immediately flees and takes a bus, get's off after a couple of blocks then takes a cab to a location way past his Rooming house.
Oswald kills a cop.
Oswald resists arrest and tries to kill more cops.
Oswald has an alias that bought the rifle.
Oswald denies buying a rifle.
Oswald denies owning a rifle.
Oswald refusing to take a polygraph.
Oswald says that somebody put his head on someone else's body in the backyard photo.
Oswald defected to Russia.
I think Hoover had every right to declare Oswald as guilty because in anyone's book this is powerful solid evidence that so far has withstood the test of time, CT's have rightfully questioned some of this evidence but so far haven't disproved any of it, much less provide a viable credible alternative.
JohnM
Oswald is led to believe he is being brought in on a plot to kill the president, and Oswald volunteers to bring his rifle to the Depository...
There you go, that answers about half of your allegations...
Oswald realizes at some point following the assassination, that he might be falsely accused of shooting the gun that he brought to the Depository, so he tries to flee the scene...
Oswald denies all allegations believing an attorney will come to his aid, and that his one phone call - which was diverted from his "handler" and never went through, according to the testimony of switchboard operators - would give him assistance...
Switchboard operators at the Dallas police station claimed that, on the night of November 23, 1963, Oswald tried to make a long-distance call to Raleigh, North Carolina.
According to Ruth Paine’s testimony, Oswald never made a completed call.
Two switchboard operators later stated that they were told not to put the call through and to never speak of it.
No question about it... and most all reasonable skilled attorneys would agree... Hoover and all who tried to "close the case" within 48 hours and pronounce Oswald guilty, acting alone... rushed to judgment, causing great and reasonable suspicion that the accusing parties just might be accomplices in a frame-up...
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Oswald is led to believe he is being brought in on a plot to kill the president, and Oswald volunteers to bring his rifle to the Depository...
By what sort of logic does this make sense? Oswald is told to wait in a lunchroom or wherever until summoned for his unspecified role in a Presidential assassination, and he volunteers "Hey, I've got an old Carcano I'll go home and get if you're short on weapons." And the conspirators think an old Carcano sounds like a good idea? What? Hello? And then you have to explain all the post-assassination events from Tippit to the Texas Theater to his complete lack of cooperation post-arrest. Sorry, it just makes no sense at all to me.
Oswald realizes at some point following the assassination, that he might be falsely accused of shooting the gun that he brought to the Depository, so he tries to flee the scene...
But this didn't occur to him when he volunteered to bring in the gun??? You're positing an Oswald with an IQ of about 17.
Oswald denies all allegations believing an attorney will come to his aid, and that his one phone call - which was diverted from his "handler" and never went through, according to the testimony of switchboard operators - would give him assistance...
Switchboard operators at the Dallas police station claimed that, on the night of November 23, 1963, Oswald tried to make a long-distance call to Raleigh, North Carolina.
Nope, nope. nope. The Raleigh Call Factoid has been demolished, by me and others. Even Greg Parker said I'd done a nice job on that. John Hurt was an alcoholic, mental case. The call was an incoming call from him. The two women in the switchboard room were bitterly at odds about what had occurred, and the one who made the wild claims was clearly fabricating. It's a classic - classic, I tell you - Conspiracy Factoid. I researched it after huckster Jim DiEugenio posted "Oh, man, what about that Raleigh call?" as though we were talking about one of the keys to the JFKA.
Oswald wanting to contact attorney Abt does make sense even here in Lone Nutter Land. Abt was the attorney for the Communist Party, had been involved in at least one high-profile case, and my belief is that Oswald, once he surprisingly found himself alive after the JFKA, realized he could cement his place in history by turning a lengthy trial into Marxist Theater in which is brilliance would be revealed.
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By what sort of logic does this make sense? Oswald is told to wait in a lunchroom or wherever until summoned for his unspecified role in a Presidential assassination, and he volunteers "Hey, I've got an old Carcano I'll go home and get if you're short on weapons." And the conspirators think an old Carcano sounds like a good idea? What? Hello? And then you have to explain all the post-assassination events from Tippit to the Texas Theater to his complete lack of cooperation post-arrest. Sorry, it just makes no sense at all to me.
But this didn't occur to him when he volunteered to bring in the gun??? You're positing an Oswald with an IQ of about 17.
Nope, nope. nope. The Raleigh Call Factoid has been demolished, by me and others. Even Greg Parker said I'd done a nice job on that. John Hurt was an alcoholic, mental case. The call was an incoming call from him. The two women in the switchboard room were bitterly at odds about what had occurred, and the one who made the wild claims was clearly fabricating. It's a classic - classic, I tell you - Conspiracy Factoid. I researched it after huckster Jim DiEugenio posted "Oh, man, what about that Raleigh call?" as though we were talking about one of the keys to the JFKA.
Oswald wanting to contact attorney Abt does make sense even here in Lone Nutter Land. Abt was the attorney for the Communist Party, had been involved in at least one high-profile case, and my belief is that Oswald, once he surprisingly found himself alive after the JFKA, realized he could cement his place in history by turning a lengthy trial into Marxist Theater in which is brilliance would be revealed.
Ahhh... yes.... You make my point... You did your research, you've been examining documents... How long have you been doing this to arrive at your conclusions... only TWO DAYS??
And BTW - The scenario painted about Oswald in the post that goes contrary to what every LN adherent believes, was only to suggest an alternative to the LN narrative, what any trained skillful attorney can do so very well.
48 hours to come to a conclusion and foist Oswald's guilt on the public, is a RUSH TO JUDGMENT... as the 1976 Senate Select Committee determined so conclusively. Hoover should be condemned, along with his cronies, for playing Judge, Jury and Hangman!
Case closed!
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Oswald is led to believe he is being brought in on a plot to kill the president, and Oswald volunteers to bring his rifle to the Depository...
There you go, that answers about half of your allegations...
Oswald realizes at some point following the assassination, that he might be falsely accused of shooting the gun that he brought to the Depository, so he tries to flee the scene...
Oswald denies all allegations believing an attorney will come to his aid, and that his one phone call - which was diverted from his "handler" and never went through, according to the testimony of switchboard operators - would give him assistance...
Switchboard operators at the Dallas police station claimed that, on the night of November 23, 1963, Oswald tried to make a long-distance call to Raleigh, North Carolina.
According to Ruth Paine’s testimony, Oswald never made a completed call.
Two switchboard operators later stated that they were told not to put the call through and to never speak of it.
No question about it... and most all reasonable skilled attorneys would agree... Hoover and all who tried to "close the case" within 48 hours and pronounce Oswald guilty, acting alone... rushed to judgment, causing great and reasonable suspicion that the accusing parties just might be accomplices in a frame-up...
In this fantasy, Oswald is acting in Gomer Pyle-like bliss prior to the assassination. Actively working to frame himself for the assassination by agreeing to bring his rifle to the TSBD. He apparently can't put two and two together to understand that if his rifle is found at the crime scene that he will be blamed for the crime. But then at the moment that shots are fired a light bulb suddenly goes off in his head. He says "Shazam, I'm in big trouble here." He becomes a genius. What to do? Of course, go home and get a gun, do a little window shopping then head to the movies after shooting a cop. When he is arrested, he doesn't name names but protests his innocence believing he is going to get away with the assassination of the president after the authorities have found his rifle at the scene. Why does he need an attorney to tell them who is responsible for the crime? Just because the evidence demonstrated very quickly that Oswald was guilty that didn't preclude the DPD and others from being open to any evidence of the involvement of others. The problem with that is that there was no such evidence at the time. That remains the case 60+ years later.
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In this fantasy, Oswald is acting in Gomer Pyle-like bliss prior to the assassination. Actively working to frame himself for the assassination by agreeing to bring his rifle to the TSBD. He apparently can't put two and two together to understand that if his rifle is found at the crime scene that he will be blamed for the crime. But then at the moment that shots are fired a light bulb suddenly goes off in his head. He says "Shazam, I'm in big trouble here." He becomes a genius. What to do? Of course, go home and get a gun, do a little window shopping then head to the movies after shooting a cop. When he is arrested, he doesn't name names but protests his innocence believing he is going to get away with the assassination of the president after the authorities have found his rifle at the scene. Why does he need an attorney to tell them who is responsible for the crime? Just because the evidence demonstrated very quickly that Oswald was guilty that didn't preclude the DPD and others from being open to any evidence of the involvement of others. The problem with that is that there was no such evidence at the time. That remains the case 60+ years later.
Read the above post: "And BTW - The scenario painted about Oswald in the post that goes contrary to what every LN adherent believes, was only to suggest an alternative to the LN narrative, what any trained skillful attorney can do so very well."
And no... comparing Oswald to Gomer Pyle will not bolster your case...
Hoover and his cronies RUSHED TO JUDGMENT, as the Senate Select Committee of 1976 emphasizes so pointedly in their extensive and final report...
Case closed!
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Read the above post: "And BTW - The scenario painted about Oswald in the post that goes contrary to what every LN adherent believes, was only to suggest an alternative to the LN narrative, what any trained skillful attorney can do so very well."
And no... comparing Oswald to Gomer Pyle will no bolster your case...
Hoover and his cronies RUSHED TO JUDGMENT, as the Senate Select Committee of 1976 emphasizes so pointedly in their extensive and final report...
Case closed!
It makes no difference whether Hoover rushed to judgment. We now live 60+ years later and the evidence remains the same. It proves beyond doubt that LHO assassinated JFK. There is no credible evidence of the involvement of anyone else. Some people will never accept that. If a time machine is someday built by Elon Musk to witness the event, they would refuse to believe their own eyes.
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Oswald is led to believe he is being brought in on a plot to kill the president, and Oswald volunteers to bring his rifle to the Depository...
There you go, that answers about half of your allegations...
Oswald realizes at some point following the assassination, that he might be falsely accused of shooting the gun that he brought to the Depository, so he tries to flee the scene...
Oswald denies all allegations believing an attorney will come to his aid, and that his one phone call - which was diverted from his "handler" and never went through, according to the testimony of switchboard operators - would give him assistance...
Switchboard operators at the Dallas police station claimed that, on the night of November 23, 1963, Oswald tried to make a long-distance call to Raleigh, North Carolina.
According to Ruth Paine’s testimony, Oswald never made a completed call.
Two switchboard operators later stated that they were told not to put the call through and to never speak of it.
No question about it... and most all reasonable skilled attorneys would agree... Hoover and all who tried to "close the case" within 48 hours and pronounce Oswald guilty, acting alone... rushed to judgment, causing great and reasonable suspicion that the accusing parties just might be accomplices in a frame-up...
Oswald is led to believe he is being brought in on a plot to kill the president, and Oswald volunteers to bring his rifle to the Depository...
There you go, that answers about half of your allegations...
Oswald realizes at some point following the assassination, that he might be falsely accused of shooting the gun that he brought to the Depository, so he tries to flee the scene...
Ahhh, the old Oswald was as dumb as a box of rocks defence, I like it, because if Oswald even had 1 brain cell he would have known that bringing his rifle to work when the plot was to kill the President would be stupid and highly incriminating.
And then you have Oswald having an epiphany and realizes that his rifle was in the building and likely used to fire the shots that he heard, then says to himself "Gee Whiz, I might be accused of shooting the gun I brought to the Depository, so I better leave, but first I need a coke"?
Are you serious Jake, or are you trying to pull my leg?
JohnM
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Ahhh, the old Oswald was as dumb as a box of rocks defence, I like it, because if Oswald even had 1 brain cell he would have known that bringing his rifle to work when the plot was to kill the President would be stupid and highly incriminating.
And then you have Oswald having an epiphany and realizes that his rifle was in the building and likely used to fire the shots that he heard, then says to himself "Gee Whiz, I might be accused of shooting the gun I brought to the Depository, so I better leave, but first I need a coke"?
Are you serious Jake, or are you trying to pull my leg?
JohnM
You miss 3 very important key points:
1) Your theory actually presents Oswald as even more stupid than the one presented. If bringing his gun to work was stupid and highly incriminating, what should we call trying to kill the president alone with his rifle from the 6th floor? Yes, THAT is even MORE stupid and incriminating! Any skilled attorney would find it very easy to argue that Oswald thought he was being used by a high level group of law enforcement officials who would serve to protect him, and others involved in the plot. (Hoover's actions, along with those of his top officials, would give this idea some strong credibility).
2) If you read the thread more closely, you'll realize the scenario presented about Oswald was only hypothetical, to show that there are different ways to interpret the facts in the case. That is why no one should rush to judgment, and want to foist someone's guilt onto the public within 48 hours of an event. Hoover and cronies are incriminated by doing just that, and anyone who does such things and approves them, is no servant of truth and justice, law and order.
3) The main point being made is that Hoover and his cronies rushed to judgment, wanting to condemn Oswald, wanting the public to think he was guilty, alone, within 48 hours of the assassination! They kept putting pressure on everyone to come to this conclusion, just as the Senate Select Committee determined and states with strong emphasis in their Final Report in 1976.
Such a rush to judgment is appalling and repulsive in a nation that tries to uphold law and order, truth and justice, as civic virtues.
Case closed.