JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Lance Payette on April 14, 2025, 06:17:54 PM
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For purposes of this thread, we will stipulate that CE 399, Ye Magick Bullette, was:
1. Entirely bogus! A dastardly, Oswald-framing plant by evil conspirators!
2. Plagued by a chain of custody so flawed it would never have been admitted into evidence at a trial of Oswald!
3. In impossibly good condition for it to have done all the damage the SBT says it did!
Good. Now we’re all on the same page as to the essential facts. No need to debate any of the above stipulations for the 14,823rd time.
Let us proceed to ask the questions that leap to the minds of epistemologically oriented CTers such as ourselves. To wit:
1. Why did the conspirators plant CE 399 at Parkland rather than in the limousine? Why take these risks and raise these red flags?
2. Why did the conspirators plant CE 399 in circumstances where it might not be found at all and there would always be uncertainty as to where it actually was found? Why take these risks and raise these red flags? Why not just have a DPD, FBI or SS agent say, “Hey, look what just rolled off the Governor’s stretcher”?
3. Who planted CE 399 anyway? The DPD, FBI or SS? They had a bullet fired from Oswald’s rifle prepared in advance? Why? “Just in case” – but just in case what?
4. Why did the conspirators plant a bullet in suspiciously good condition? Why raise this red flag? Why not plant a bullet that would be a more plausible fit for the SBT?
5. How did the conspirators know CE 399 was “needed”? Was the SBT part of the plan even before the assassination? How did the conspirators know CE 399 wouldn’t be one bullet too many when all the fragments were retrieved? How did they know there wouldn’t be too many fragments in Connally to make CE 399 plausible?
6. Why did the conspirators allow such a muddled chain of custody, one so muddled some participants couldn’t identify CE 399 as the bullet they’d been shown and others said it wasn’t? Despite intimidating doctors, knocking off inconvenient witnesses and whatnot, the conspirators couldn’t assemble a clean, no-problems chain of custody for CE 399?
7. What did CE 399 actually accomplish? What did it add to our conspiracy theory? How could whatever it accomplished, if anything, possibly be worth all the risks that planting it required and all the red flags it has raised for 60+ years?
I confess, my fellow CTers, I am puzzled. A bogus, planted CE 399 is one of the linchpins of our gospel, is it not? And yet, I am deeply concerned that a bogus, planted CE 399 makes no sense whatsoever in any of the 15 or 20 conspiracy theories I’m willing to entertain. It appears to me that, once again, the conspirators were bungling fools whenever our pet theory requires them to have been so.
Help me out here. Explain how a bogus, planted CE 399 actually does make sense in the context of a conspiracy theory – any conspiracy theory.
(I am a sufficiently epistemologically oriented CTer that “It doesn’t have to make sense, dammit!” will not allay my concerns. Nor will doddering old Landis’s latter-day revelations, I must admit. CE 399 was found on the back seat of the limo and Landis allowed the WC, HSCA and 60 years of raging controversy to play out because, hey, it didn't seem like that big of a deal until he decided to write a book? It was on the back seat because it was responsible for the head wound - hello? My fellow CTers, we are better than this, are we not?)
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Conspiracy theories make sense on the surface - JFK had a lot of powerful enemies - but when you drill down into the details, into how this was done, they fall apart. It's why we have 57 different flavors of conspiracies that contradict each other.
So, as you ask: How did they plant CE399? And why on a gurney in the basement? Why not the limo? The conspiracy answer is, "Well, they just did, you idiot nutter!"
When Morley was testifying with Stone and DiEugenio I wanted a member of the committee to ask him if he found any evidence that Clay Shaw and David Ferrie conspired with Oswald to assassinate JFK. This is, broadly speaking, the Garrison/Stone/DiEugenio theory. Then I wanted that member to ask Stone and DiEugenio if they had discovered any evidence that James Angleton used Oswald in an AMSPELL counter intelligence operation to embarrass the FPCC and then use Oswald in another operation to, a la Operation Northwoods false flags, frame Castro for the assassination.
Shorter: Morley's theory is at odds with the Garrisonite's theory and their theory is at odds with Morley's. And neither has found evidence for the other.
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That is another curious aspect of Conspiracy World. CTers seem to regard themselves as members of some monolithic Brotherhood, even though there must be at least 25 full-blown but irreconcilable conspiracy theories. With the exception of a handful who occasionally gang up on the Harvey & Lee folks as being too goofy even for Conspiracy World, CTers seldom seem to squabble among themselves. "United against the Lone Nut narrative" seems to be the glue that holds them together. I might think the logical approach would be to develop a plausible, coherent conspiracy theory and work toward fleshing it out in as much detail as possible, but this doesn't seem to be the case.
One of my genuine epiphanies early in my involvement with the JFKA was how, in every conspiracy theory, the conspirators were bumbling clods who conveniently left screaming clues all over the place as the theory demanded. It seems to me that the assassination of a President at high noon in a public plaza crawling with journalists, police and bystanders with cameras would logically be the tightest, most carefully planned and controlled conspiracy in the history of the world - but no, it was just about the most fumbling, bumbling, clues-everywhere effort this side of the Keystone Cops.
In my little thought experiments of a plausible conspiracy involving any combination of LBJ, Hoover, CIA operatives, the FBI and/or SS and/or DPD, the Mafia or billionaire right-wing oilmen, the assassination looks absolutely nothing like Dealey Plaza and always has a far less risky venue than Dealey Plaza. But since even CTers are stuck with Oswald and Dealey Plaza, wacky ad hoc theorizing is the order of the day!
Why am I betting no CTer makes a sincere effort to address my little questions about CE 399? Can we not even build a plausible foundation for this one kernel of conspiracy gospel, folks? Aren't these the very sorts of questions we should WANT to answer, or is the sad truth that we don't even care whether any of this CT stuff makes sense?
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In my little thought experiments of a plausible conspiracy involving any combination of LBJ, Hoover, CIA operatives, the FBI and/or SS and/or DPD, the Mafia or billionaire right-wing oilmen, the assassination looks absolutely nothing like Dealey Plaza and always has a far less risky venue than Dealey Plaza.
Again, why assume that the plot to kill and the engineering of the cover-up were organised by the same entities?
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Again, why assume that the plot to kill and the engineering of the cover-up were organised by the same entities?
I don't assume that at all. As previously stated, another of my epiphanies was Larry Hancock's point that there may well have been (and surely were) high-level cover-up activities that were all about covering up incompetence and malfeasance and had nothing to do with the assassination per se. I even accept that there was a considerable effort to minimize Oswald's Soviet and Cuban connections for precisely the reasons (i.e., fears) LBJ expressed.
OK, if you like, we will stipulate that the planting of the bogus CE 399 was part of a cover-up organized by different persons or entities from those who organized the assassination itself. Where does this get us? Care to try to answer my questions in that context? Surely the planting of CE 399 as part of a separately organized cover-up raises the same questions - if not more - does it not?
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That is another curious aspect of Conspiracy World. CTers seem to regard themselves as members of some monolithic Brotherhood, even though there must be at least 25 full-blown but irreconcilable conspiracy theories. With the exception of a handful who occasionally gang up on the Harvey & Lee folks as being too goofy even for Conspiracy World, CTers seldom seem to squabble among themselves. "United against the Lone Nut narrative" seems to be the glue that holds them together. I might think the logical approach would be to develop a plausible, coherent conspiracy theory and work toward fleshing it out in as much detail as possible, but this doesn't seem to be the case.
One of my genuine epiphanies early in my involvement with the JFKA was how, in every conspiracy theory, the conspirators were bumbling clods who conveniently left screaming clues all over the place as the theory demanded. It seems to me that the assassination of a President at high noon in a public plaza crawling with journalists, police and bystanders with cameras would logically be the tightest, most carefully planned and controlled conspiracy in the history of the world - but no, it was just about the most fumbling, bumbling, clues-everywhere effort this side of the Keystone Cops.
In my little thought experiments of a plausible conspiracy involving any combination of LBJ, Hoover, CIA operatives, the FBI and/or SS and/or DPD, the Mafia or billionaire right-wing oilmen, the assassination looks absolutely nothing like Dealey Plaza and always has a far less risky venue than Dealey Plaza. But since even CTers are stuck with Oswald and Dealey Plaza, wacky ad hoc theorizing is the order of the day!
Why am I betting no CTer makes a sincere effort to address my little questions about CE 399? Can we not even build a plausible foundation for this one kernel of conspiracy gospel, folks? Aren't these the very sorts of questions we should WANT to answer, or is the sad truth that we don't even care whether any of this CT stuff makes sense?
Sadly, we (John Q. Public), in general, appear to prefer mysteries, intrigue, and never ending questions to solutions. The Warren Commission investigation and all its supporting volumes provide a never ending source for these things. The last thing the CT crowd really wants is solutions. It is enough (for them to sell their ideas in their books, movies, etc.) just to ask the questions and attempt to create doubt. If and when they decide that they want real answers, they end up being converts to the other side of the argument.
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One theory along the lines of what Jim is suggesting, I suppose, is that a large, identifiable fragment that actually caused Connally’s wounds was found in the limousine – but it wasn’t from Oswald’s rifle! It was so obviously not from Oswald’s rifle that it absolutely screamed conspiracy! Ergo, because LBJ and Hoover were determined not even to allow the specter (no pun intended) of Soviet or Cuban involvement to raise its fearsome head, they set in motion the planting of CE 399 and the development of something like the SBT.
I don’t know, this strikes me as ad hoc to the point of sounding like science fiction. How on earth would all of this have played out on the day of the assassination? Why wouldn’t the evildoers have simply flushed the real fragment and substituted CE 399 in the limo? How does it really answer my original questions - and doesn’t it raise about 75 additional ones, as ad hoc explanations have a nasty habit of doing?
Sorry, my fellow CTers, I remain perplexed. Unless you help me out, I think I’m being forced into the corner of “It doesn’t have to make any sense, dammit!” Ouch. Maybe I just lack the CT gene, ya think?
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For purposes of this thread, we will stipulate that CE 399, Ye Magick Bullette, was:
1. Entirely bogus! A dastardly, Oswald-framing plant by evil conspirators!
2. Plagued by a chain of custody so flawed it would never have been admitted into evidence at a trial of Oswald!
3. In impossibly good condition for it to have done all the damage the SBT says it did!
Good. Now we’re all on the same page as to the essential facts. No need to debate any of the above stipulations for the 14,823rd time.
Let us proceed to ask the questions that leap to the minds of epistemologically oriented CTers such as ourselves. To wit:
1. Why did the conspirators plant CE 399 at Parkland rather than in the limousine? Why take these risks and raise these red flags?
2. Why did the conspirators plant CE 399 in circumstances where it might not be found at all and there would always be uncertainty as to where it actually was found? Why take these risks and raise these red flags? Why not just have a DPD, FBI or SS agent say, “Hey, look what just rolled off the Governor’s stretcher”?
3. Who planted CE 399 anyway? The DPD, FBI or SS? They had a bullet fired from Oswald’s rifle prepared in advance? Why? “Just in case” – but just in case what?
4. Why did the conspirators plant a bullet in suspiciously good condition? Why raise this red flag? Why not plant a bullet that would be a more plausible fit for the SBT?
5. How did the conspirators know CE 399 was “needed”? Was the SBT part of the plan even before the assassination? How did the conspirators know CE 399 wouldn’t be one bullet too many when all the fragments were retrieved? How did they know there wouldn’t be too many fragments in Connally to make CE 399 plausible?
6. Why did the conspirators allow such a muddled chain of custody, one so muddled some participants couldn’t identify CE 399 as the bullet they’d been shown and others said it wasn’t? Despite intimidating doctors, knocking off inconvenient witnesses and whatnot, the conspirators couldn’t assemble a clean, no-problems chain of custody for CE 399?
7. What did CE 399 actually accomplish? What did it add to our conspiracy theory? How could whatever it accomplished, if anything, possibly be worth all the risks that planting it required and all the red flags it has raised for 60+ years?
I confess, my fellow CTers, I am puzzled. A bogus, planted CE 399 is one of the linchpins of our gospel, is it not? And yet, I am deeply concerned that a bogus, planted CE 399 makes no sense whatsoever in any of the 15 or 20 conspiracy theories I’m willing to entertain. It appears to me that, once again, the conspirators were bungling fools whenever our pet theory requires them to have been so.
Help me out here. Explain how a bogus, planted CE 399 actually does make sense in the context of a conspiracy theory – any conspiracy theory.
(I am a sufficiently epistemologically oriented CTer that “It doesn’t have to make sense, dammit!” will not allay my concerns. Nor will doddering old Landis’s latter-day revelations, I must admit. CE 399 was found on the back seat of the limo and Landis allowed the WC, HSCA and 60 years of raging controversy to play out because, hey, it didn't seem like that big of a deal until he decided to write a book? It was on the back seat because it was responsible for the head wound - hello? My fellow CTers, we are better than this, are we not?)
1. Why did the conspirators plant CE 399 at Parkland rather than in the limousine? Why take these risks and raise these red flags?
Just to be clear from the outset; when you say CE 399 you actually mean the bullet that Tomlinson found on a stretcher, right?
So, my reply to your question is: Did they? Tomlinson wasn't even sure on which stretcher it was. It may have been a bullet that was totally unrelated to the JFK murder. Parkland Hospital was known for receiving many victims of gun shots. Perhaps it was just happenstance.
2. Why did the conspirators plant CE 399 in circumstances where it might not be found at all and there would always be uncertainty as to where it actually was found? Why take these risks and raise these red flags? Why not just have a DPD, FBI or SS agent say, “Hey, look what just rolled off the Governor’s stretcher”?
Why do you assume that the conspirators planted CE 399 (i.e. the bullet Tomlinson found) at all?
3. Who planted CE 399 anyway? The DPD, FBI or SS? They had a bullet fired from Oswald’s rifle prepared in advance? Why? “Just in case” – but just in case what?
Again, why do you assume it was planted at all? And why do you assume they (whoever they are) had a bullet fired "from Oswald's rifle" (LOL) prepared in advance?
The rifle found at the TSBD was in Washington on SaPersonay morning. How hard would it be to fire a bullet in a tank of water or cotton wool?
4. Why did the conspirators plant a bullet in suspiciously good condition? Why raise this red flag? Why not plant a bullet that would be a more plausible fit for the SBT?
Again, what makes you think that they planted a bullet at all. And as far as the condition of CE 399 goes, it fits what you would expect a bullet to look after having been fired in water or cotton wool, don't you think?
5. How did the conspirators know CE 399 was “needed”? Was the SBT part of the plan even before the assassination? How did the conspirators know CE 399 wouldn’t be one bullet too many when all the fragments were retrieved? How did they know there wouldn’t be too many fragments in Connally to make CE 399 plausible?
Why do you assume that the conspirators knew CE 399 was needed? Perhaps they received a bullet (that O.V. Wright described as being pointed) and figured it could be helpful if they substituted it for the bullet now in evidence. Or don't you think that's possible? You clearly seem to believe that if there were conspirators, they were people in power who were able to control and manipulate the evidence.
And iirc there were in fact more fragments in Connally's body than there were missing from CE 399
6. Why did the conspirators allow such a muddled chain of custody, one so muddled some participants couldn’t identify CE 399 as the bullet they’d been shown and others said it wasn’t? Despite intimidating doctors, knocking off inconvenient witnesses and whatnot, the conspirators couldn’t assemble a clean, no-problems chain of custody for CE 399?
In this case there isn't a single solid chain of custody. It's one of the reasons why so many questions are still being asked. The problem with a chain of custody is that it is intended to protect the evidence against manipulation. The problem is that it involves people who might no be prepared to play along.
Btw Even a request for authentication of CE 399 by the WC was completely bundled by the FBI and I believe they did it on purpose. But in the larger scheme of things, why bother with pesky chains of custody when you can easily misrepresent the evidence and then lock it away for 75 years, as was the original plan.
7. What did CE 399 actually accomplish? What did it add to our conspiracy theory? How could whatever it accomplished, if anything, possibly be worth all the risks that planting it required and all the red flags it has raised for 60+ years?
I believe the purpose of CE 399 (the bullet now in the archives) was to tie Oswald to the murder weapon. A one shooter scenario requires one rifle and bullets and fragments that can be linked to that rifle. So, look what we have;
A bullet found at Parkland which conveniently turned into the CE 399 bullet now in the National Archives
Bullet fragments allegedly recovered from the limo, before Frazier and his team were able to examine the car. No photographs of the fragments in situ and a completely disturbed crime scene before the FBI could get there.
Frazier was told that he was given fragments found in the limo but there is not a shred of evidence that shows this is true.
And then, of course, we have the Walker bullet, which was allegedly also shot by the same rifle. When the HSCA showed a photograph of the bullet, General Walker instantly denied that this was the bullet that was taken from his house.
He went so far as to have his lawyer write a letter to the HSCA that the bullet shown was a substitute!
I am a sufficiently epistemologically oriented
Really? You seem to be making a lot of assumption for that to be true.
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https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#CE399
Excerpt from above articles....
"...Since there's so much OTHER stuff (bullet-wise and shell-wise) that links Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano to the assassination, CTers who continue to want to believe that CE399 didn't really come out of Oswald's rifle when JFK's car passed through Dealey Plaza on November 22nd have a very large mountain to climb in order to advance the "399 Is A Fraud" conspiracy theory.
Because if CE567 and CE569 (the two front-seat bullet fragments linked conclusively to Oswald's rifle) are the Real McCoy (i.e., genuine evidence that wasn't tampered with in some manner)....
And: if the three bullet shells that were found by the police underneath the sniper's window on the sixth floor are also genuine....
Then common sense (plus the overall ODDS) would certainly indicate that it's very, very likely that Bullet #399 was ALSO a "genuine" article as well, with that whole bullet exiting Lee Harvey Oswald's gun at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63 in Dealey Plaza.
And if the CTers wish to travel down the "ALL OF THE CARCANO (C2766) BULLET EVIDENCE IS TAINTED" road, then they've got THREE "This Evidence Is Tainted" mountains to climb -- the "CE567/569" mountain; the "Shells In The Window" mountain; and the large hill marked "CE399" too.
I hope those CTers are in good shape and are really good mountain climbers. Because getting to the top of just ONE of those three Mount Everests is likely to give an average (and reasoned-thinking) person a coronary.
But that hasn't stopped certain conspiracy theorists from heading up that unclimbable series of
peaks. Has it?" -- DVP; October 2007
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https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#CE399
Excerpt from above articles....
"...Since there's so much OTHER stuff (bullet-wise and shell-wise) that links Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano to the assassination, CTers who continue to want to believe that CE399 didn't really come out of Oswald's rifle when JFK's car passed through Dealey Plaza on November 22nd have a very large mountain to climb in order to advance the "399 Is A Fraud" conspiracy theory.
Because if CE567 and CE569 (the two front-seat bullet fragments linked conclusively to Oswald's rifle) are the Real McCoy (i.e., genuine evidence that wasn't tampered with in some manner)....
And: if the three bullet shells that were found by the police underneath the sniper's window on the sixth floor are also genuine....
Then common sense (plus the overall ODDS) would certainly indicate that it's very, very likely that Bullet #399 was ALSO a "genuine" article as well, with that whole bullet exiting Lee Harvey Oswald's gun at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63 in Dealey Plaza.
And if the CTers wish to travel down the "ALL OF THE CARCANO (C2766) BULLET EVIDENCE IS TAINTED" road, then they've got THREE "This Evidence Is Tainted" mountains to climb -- the "CE567/569" mountain; the "Shells In The Window" mountain; and the large hill marked "CE399" too.
I hope those CTers are in good shape and are really good mountain climbers. Because getting to the top of just ONE of those three Mount Everests is likely to give an average (and reasoned-thinking) person a coronary.
But that hasn't stopped certain conspiracy theorists from heading up that unclimbable series of
peaks. Has it?" -- DVP; October 2007
CTers who continue to want to believe that CE399 didn't really come out of Oswald's rifle
I never believed that. Of course the bullet now in evidence as CE399 came from from the rifle found at the TSBD.
I'm just not convinced that that rifle belonged to Oswald or that the bullet Tomlinson found at Parkland is the same one now in evidence as CE 399
Because if CE567 and CE569 (the two front-seat bullet fragments linked conclusively to Oswald's rifle) are the Real McCoy (i.e., genuine evidence that wasn't tampered with in some manner)....
BS, Frazier was given those fragments and was told that they came from the limo. That's hardly "genuine evidence that wasn't tampered with in some manner"
And: if the three bullet shells that were found by the police underneath the sniper's window on the sixth floor are also genuine....
Which shells do you mean? The ones now in evidence or the ones Fritz threw down after having picked up the shells that were actually there?
Then common sense (plus the overall ODDS) would certainly indicate that it's very, very likely that Bullet #399 was ALSO a "genuine" article as well, with that whole bullet exiting Lee Harvey Oswald's gun at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63 in Dealey Plaza.
Oh boy... now you are speculating and making assumptions..... Not good at all!
I hope those CTers are in good shape and are really good mountain climbers. Because getting to the top of just ONE of those three Mount Everests is likely to give an average (and reasoned-thinking) person a coronary.
What mountains would that be? They seem to exist in your imagination only.
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(Edited to correct brain fart pointed out by DVP)
An individual on my dreaded Not Worth My Time (NWMT) list has chimed in with what we shall call the Tomlinson Deflection (or the Wright Deflection, as the case may be). Not content with my entirely CT-oriented stipulations, he has added the wrinkle that CE 399 was not planted at Parkland at all. At Parkland, employee Tomlinson actually found a pointy-headed .30 caliber bullet that he showed to employee Wright and that Wright gave to SS agent Johnsen. Ergo, CE 399 was fabricated by the conspirators at a later stage. (According to he who is NWMT, the pointy-headed bullet might have been evidence of a second gunman or even entirely unrelated to the JFKA – i.e., just a bullet from some other shooting. In either case, CE 399 was fabricated outside of Parkland.)
The Tomlinson Deflection is, of course, old news, dating back at least to Tink Thompson’s Six Seconds in Dallas (I have a signed copy!). See https://history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/EvenMoreMagical.htm.
When Tink met with Wright in 1966, the latter said the found bullet was pointy-headed. This in itself seems problematical, since it would suggest the found bullet was pretty much as pristine as CE 399! Somewhat weirdly, or so it seems to me, Wright pulled a pointy-headed .30 caliber bullet out of his desk drawer as an example of what the found bullet had looked like! Oh, well, life is full of these little incongruities.
He who is NWMT accuses me of “making a lot of assumptions” whereas I was really only making entirely CT-oriented stipulations for the sake of discussion. Dissatisfied with my stipulations, he who is NWMT now assumes that (1) in his brief handling of the found bullet, Wright formed a sufficiently distinct image to speak confidently in 1966, and (2) when both Tomlinson and Wright said they could not identify CE 399 as the bullet found at Parkland, they did not simply mean “because we have no way of knowing if this is actually the same bullet” but rather “it looks nothing like the bullet we found” (an assumption Thompson also makes). Alternatively, everything Tomlinson and Wright said was true because Tomlinson actually did find a pointy-headed bullet and CE 399 never was at Parkland.
These seem to me like rather critical and dubious assumptions. My guess would be that Wright simply had a failure of recollection, perhaps due to seeing that pointy-headed bullet in his desk drawer day after day, but let’s play along and stipulate that Tomlinson actually found an intact, pointy-headed, .30 caliber bullet and not CE 399. (FWIW, a .30 caliber bullet is a mere 0.044” larger in diameter than a 6.5 bullet.)
The scenario then is: Pointy-headed bullet is found by Tomlinson and shown to Wright, Johnsen or someone else realizes it can’t have come from Oswald’s rifle but could be useful if the found-at-Parkland scenario is made to fit a bullet that did come from Oswald’s rifle, someone fires Oswald’s rifle into a tank of water or cotton wool to generate CE 399, the pointy-headed bullet is made to disappear, a chain of custody for CE 399 is fabricated, the SBT is formulated, and all is well in Conspiracy Land.
Sound good to you, my fellow epistemologically oriented CTers?
1. Knowing Tomlinson and Wright have found and handled a pointy-headed bullet that looks entirely different from CE 399, the conspirators nevertheless adopt Tomlinson and Wright as the linchpins of a CE 399-was-found-at-Parkland scenario and yet leave them free to say CE 399 doesn’t look like the bullet they found? Why do the conspirators do this, why do they run these seemingly insane risks? Who decided this seemed like a good plan?
2. Why do the conspirators need Tomlinson and Wright at all? Why don’t they just say the Tomlinson bullet was unrelated to the JFKA and have a SS agent (Landis!) say CE 399 was found in the limo or fell out of Connally’s pants? How does the Tomlinson-Wright scenario make anything better?
3. Why do the conspirators need CE 399 at all? What does it add to the Lone Nut narrative? Why do they need another bullet from Oswald’s rifle? How do they know how many fragments may eventually be found in the limo or elsewhere in Dealey Plaza? What if CE 399 turns out to make things far worse?
4. Why do the conspirators fire CE 399 into a tank of water or cotton wool? Since they have the luxury of time, why do they generate a bullet as problematical as CE 399? Why not fire into a dead cow or even a cadaver? Fire ten bullets until one looks "just right."
5. Is CE 399 somehow critical to the SBT? Why? Isn’t it more of a problem for the SBT than a help? Had the SBT been formulated at this early date, long before it was even a gleam in Specter’s eye?
6. Why create a chain of custody for CE 399 that includes Tomlinson and Wright at all? Just establish a chain of custody for the pointy-headed bullet and say it turned out to be unrelated to the JFKA. Even if we ignore Tomlinson and Wright, the chain of custody for CE 399 is problematical anyway (as Thompson pointed out). Why would there be any flaws in the chain of custody if CE 399 had been created outside of Parkland? The conspirators couldn’t even get that right?
This just goes nowhere – does it, my fellow CTers? It’s just ad hoc to the 32nd degree, isn’t it? We can do better than this – can’t we?
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When Tink met with Tomlinson in 1966, the latter said the bullet he’d found was pointy-headed. .... Tomlinson pulled a pointy-headed .30 caliber bullet out of his desk drawer as an example of what the found bullet had looked like!
Lance,
You meant to say O.P. Wright in your above post, not Tomlinson.
But speaking of Tomlinson....
He (Darrell Tomlinson) told Ray Marcus in 1966 that the bullet he was shown by the FBI "appeared to be the same one" (https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhAhAIo0LvHyDiK0n59Jcd-A25MafEqAPOg6UHZ-51o1ryBxPvX2ZLsClUqlOnFIOC15aWrMlV7qtBew73atPb9K1jl2oE_x-Pk2h4_Cq_ENoSXRZwEhF8-ukMyqqWjlUXi8CHLY1tlauqx/s1600-h/Marcus-Tomlinson-Interview-Transcript-Page-6.jpg) that he (Tomlinson) found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital on 11/22/63.
Plus:
The fact that the FBI forthrightly admitted in their July 7, 1964, report (aka Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2011) that neither Darrell Tomlinson nor O.P. Wright could positively identify the CE399 bullet is a very good indication that there's nothing phony about any of the verbiage we see in CE2011.
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/marcus-tomlinson-interview-7-25-66.html
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Darrell-Tomlinson-And-CE399
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Lance,
You meant to say O.P. Wright in your above post, not Tomlinson.
But speaking of Tomlinson....
He (Darrell Tomlinson) told Ray Marcus in 1966 that the bullet he was shown by the FBI
"appeared to be the same one" (https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhAhAIo0LvHyDiK0n59Jcd-A25MafEqAPOg6UHZ-51o1ryBxPvX2ZLsClUqlOnFIOC15aWrMlV7qtBew73atPb9K1jl2oE_x-Pk2h4_Cq_ENoSXRZwEhF8-ukMyqqWjlUXi8CHLY1tlauqx/s1600-h/Marcus-Tomlinson-Interview-Transcript-Page-6.jpg) that he (Tomlinson) found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital on 11/22/63.
Plus:
The fact that the FBI forthrightly admitted in their July 7, 1964, report (aka Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2011) that neither Darrell Tomlinson nor O.P. Wright could positively identify the CE399 bullet is a very good indication that there's nothing phony about any of the verbiage we see in CE2011.
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/marcus-tomlinson-interview-7-25-66.html
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Darrell-Tomlinson-And-CE399
He (Darrell Tomlinson) told Ray Marcus in 1966 that the bullet he was shown by the FBI
Yes, he did. But in the same interview he also said that he was only shown a bullet once and that was about a week after the shooting, by SAC Shanklin. At that time he may well have been shown the actual bullet he had found.
In his WC testimony, two years earlier, he also confirmed that he was only interviewed by the FBI once, he believed in late November.
The fact that the FBI forthrightly admitted in their July 7, 1964, report (aka Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2011) that neither Darrell Tomlinson nor O.P. Wright could positively identify the CE399 bullet is a very good indication that there's nothing phony about any of the verbiage we see in CE2011.
What else could SAC Shanklin have written in his airtel? That Tomlinson and Wright did identify the bullet? Bending the truth a bit is something he could perhaps get away with, but telling an outright lie and hoping he wouldn't be found out. Really?
We know now that Odum has denied ever having CE 399 or showing it to anybody for identification. There is no receipt signed by Odum for CE 399 nor is there a FD 302 written by Odum about this alleged encounter.
In 1966 O.V. Wright said that the bullet he received from Tomlinson was pointed (which the bullet now in evidence as CE 399 clearly isn't) and Tomlinson told Marcus in 1966 that he was only interviewed by the FBI once, in late November.
Now let me guess what your reply is going to be. O.V. Wright simply misremembered, as did Odum and Tomlinson just simply forgot that he was shown a bullet after his testimony had already been taken... Yeah, right!
So, let's take this thing a step further. When Specter took a deposition from Tomlinson he didn't show him CE 399 to identify it. In fact, CE 399 had not even been entered into evidence. That happened later during the testimony of Dr. Humes, who was in fact shown the bullet, "subject to later proof" that "this is the missile which has been taken from the stretcher".
Mr. SPECTER - Doctor Humes, I show you a bullet which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 399, and may I say now that, subject to later proof, this is the missile which has been taken from the stretcher which the evidence now indicates was the stretcher occupied by Governor Connally. I move for its admission into evidence at this time.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article, previously marked Commission Exhibit No. 399 for identification, was received in evidence.)
But Specter never provided the proof to show the bullet was found at Parkland and he already knew that he wouldn't be able to do so as he had already desperately tried and failed to get confirmation from Tomlinson.
Why did Specter let a golden opportunity go by to get CE 399 identified by Tomlinson? I can only speculate about his reason(s), but it's likely to be the same one for not taking testimony from O.V. Wright.
Lawyers normally ask witnesses only questions for which they already know the answer.
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Lance,
You meant to say O.P. Wright in your above post, not Tomlinson.
Sorry about that! I'd better correct it or I'll appear to be fallible. :D I may consign myself to my own NWMT bin for a spell of purgatory. I see that he who is NWMT persistently refers to O. V. Wright rather than O. P., so apparently fallibility is contagious.
One of my little quirks is to ask, "So when did these people die?" Wright lived until 1974 and was only 67 when he died. Tomlinson lived until 1993 and was only 71 when he died. Painting with a broad brush, it often seems that the hordes of JFKA researchers prefer to debate endlessly what Wright and Tomlinson said in 1964 or 1966 than to make a serious effort to nail it down. Even the HSCA does not seem to have taken up the issue, even though Tomlinson seemingly would have been readily available. The article by Thomspon and Aguilar makes clear that they did considerable research on the FBI angle in the late 1990s, and Aguilar spoke with Odum by phone twice in 2002, but there seemingly was no additional follow-up before Tomlinson died. On an issue this central, wouldn't one think the HSCA or some serious researcher would attempt to really nail it down? Perhaps everyone just accepts the mystery and deals with it as best they can - which is why I think the critical questions are the "epistemological" ones that no one ever asks: "OK, stipulating to your version of what occurred, please explain how it makes any sense in the context of the conspiracy you posit."
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The fact that the FBI forthrightly admitted in their July 7, 1964, report (aka Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2011) that neither Darrell Tomlinson nor O.P. Wright could positively identify the CE399 bullet is a very good indication that there's nothing phony about any of the verbiage we see in CE2011.
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/marcus-tomlinson-interview-7-25-66.html
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Darrell-Tomlinson-And-CE399
As you suggest, it seems to me that much supposed “evidence of conspiracy” actually points in the opposite direction.
I can sincerely stipulate that the condition of CE 399 in the context of the SBT is problematical, the recollections of Tomlinson and Wright are problematical, what Odum said is problematical, and the chain of custody of CE 399 is problematical even if we take Tomlinson and Wright out of the equation.
We then have to ask, “OK, what best explains all this?” If we say a conspiracy does, we then have to either answer the questions I have posed in a way that actually makes sense (which seems impossible to me) or hypothesize that the conspirators in a Presidential assassination were bungling fools who, again and again, made absurd decisions and couldn’t even cover their own tracks (which likewise seems impossible to me).
We are then left with the axiom that when you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, improbable as it may be, is the truth. In the utter chaos of the JFKA, a considerable amount of confusion and human error was inevitable. Hence, I accept CE 399 as a bullet that was fired from Oswald’s rifle, was found at Parkland, and probably did what the SBT posits (although I’m not even sure this is essential to the LN narrative).
The bottom line being that the unlikely condition of CE 399 and the defects in the chain of custody actually cut in favor of authenticity. If there had been a conspiracy surrounding CE 399, it would not be in the condition it is in, it would not have been found at Parkland, the Tomlinson-Wright scenario and confusion would never have been part of the record, and the chain of custody would have been as clean as a whistle.
The inability of CTers to grasp this reality tells me that their agenda is something other than the truth about the JFKA.
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Anyone who believes the SBT = Gullible
And there are many reasons to doubt that CE399 struck both JFK and Connolly.
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Anyone who believes the SBT = Gullible
And there are many reasons to doubt that CE399 struck both JFK and Connolly.
Really, maybe you are viewing the whole subject from the wrong perspective.
There is no reason to doubt SBT.
There is no possible way to explain the bullet wound in JBC’s back if the bullet does not first pass through JFK.
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There is no reason to doubt SBT.
There are many reasons to doubt the SBT, which was invented only after it became clear that at least one shot missed the limo entirely. The initial FBI investigation didn't assume that JFK and Connolly were struck by the same bullet.
There is no possible way to explain the bullet wound in JBC’s back if the bullet does not first pass through JFK.
The Zapruder film all but proved that JFK and Connolly weren't struck by the same bullet (frame 225-268).
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The Zapruder film all but proved that JFK and Connolly weren't struck by the same bullet (frame 225-268).
How are we to explain JBC's jacket's billowing outward and its lapel flapping outward between frames 223 and 224?
A particularly strong gust of wind?
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How are we to explain JBC's jacket's billowing outward and its lapel flapping outward between frames 223 and 224?
A particularly strong gust of wind?
How do you explain JBC holding his hat next to his soon to be injured wrist over a second after JFK reacted to his throat wound?
Did the bullet pause in mid-air?
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How do you explain JBC holding his hat next to his soon to be injured wrist over a second after JFK reacted to his throat wound?
Did the bullet pause in mid-air?
You need to do some more research, Banks.
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You need to do some more research, Banks.
I'm good.
Both the SBT and the identification of CE399 as the "Magic Bullet" are bogus.
What do you think of Secret Service agent, Paul Landis', claim that he planted CE399 on a stretcher at Parkland? I personally think it was either him or a different SS agent (who is now deceased) who brought the bullet to Parkland. Both agents told similar stories.
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I'm good.
Both the SBT and the identification of CE399 as the "Magic Bullet" are bogus.
What do you think of Secret Service agent, Paul Landis', claim that he planted CE399 on a stretcher at Parkland? I personally think it was either him or a different SS agent (who is now deceased) who brought the bullet to Parkland. Both agents told similar stories.
No, Banks, it's you that's bogus in the sense that you're full of beans and KGB* disinformation, whether you realize it or not.
How many times have you watched Comrade Oliver Stone's self-described mythological ("to counter the myth of the Warren Report") movie (sic), "JFK," now?
You don't happen to remember the other guy's name, do you?
Was he publishing a book, too, by any chance?
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No, Banks, it's you that's bogus in the sense that you're full of beans and KGB* disinformation, whether you realize it or not.
How many times have you watched Comrade Oliver Stone's self-described mythological ("to counter the myth of the Warren Report") movie (sic), "JFK," now?
You don't happen to remember the other guy's name, do you?
Was he publishing a book, too, by any chance?
You really are one sick puppy, aren't you?
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You really are one sick puppy, aren't you?
No, but you sure sound like one, Weedyman.
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There are many reasons to doubt the SBT...
And there are even more reasons to conclude that the Single-Bullet Theory is true. In fact, after evaluating all of the stuff that I talk about in the links provided HERE (https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Single-Bullet-Theory), it becomes fairly obvious that it would be virtually impossible for the SBT to NOT be true.
The Zapruder film all but proved that JFK and Connolly [sic] weren't struck by the same bullet (frame 225-268).
~sigh~ The exact opposite is true, of course. Frames 223 to 230 of Abraham Zapruder's film pretty much prove that Kennedy and Connally were definitely hit by the same bullet, as discussed at length HERE (https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-887.html) and HERE (https://Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com).
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No, Banks, it's you that's bogus in the sense that you're full of beans and KGB* disinformation, whether you realize it or not.
You really should talk to a therapist about your Boomer KGB paranoia. :D
You don't happen to remember the other guy's name, do you?
I forgot his name so I looked it up.
"Sam Kinney" is the name of the deceased SS agent who had a similar story about bringing a bullet to Parkland hospital:
I don't believe CE399 ended up at Parkland by chance. I believe someone placed it on a stretcher. Whether it was Landis or Kinney, I don't know.
Between these SS stories and the glaring Chain of custody problems, we can reasonably doubt that CE399 is the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connolly (if they were struck by the same bullet). It may not even be the bullet that was found on a stretcher at Parkland.
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And there are even more reasons to conclude that the Single-Bullet Theory is true. In fact, after evaluating all of the stuff that I talk about in the links provided HERE (https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Single-Bullet-Theory), it becomes fairly obvious that it would be virtually impossible for the SBT to NOT be true.
With all due respect (I do respect your opinion even though I'm not convinced on the SBT), given the botched JFK autopsy and contradictory accounts of JFK's wound locations, I don't believe we can confidently theorize bullet trajectories and conclude based on potentially inaccurate information that Kennedy and JBC were struck by the same bullet.
To me it's garbage in-garbage out if we can't know for certain the precise locations of Back and Throat wounds.
I have other reasons for doubting the SBT but the inconclusiveness of the medical evidence is the biggest for me personally.
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There are many reasons to doubt the SBT, which was invented only after it became clear that at least one shot missed the limo entirely. The initial FBI investigation didn't assume that JFK and Connolly were struck by the same bullet.
The Zapruder film all but proved that JFK and Connolly weren't struck by the same bullet (frame 225-268).
Zapruder film all but proved? Pretty convincing.
A shot missed and separate bullets wounding JFK and JBC. How many shots are in this scenario?
Seriously, how was JBC wounded without the bullet first passing through JFK? Where was that shooter located?
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Zapruder film all but proved? Pretty convincing.
A shot missed and separate bullets wounding JFK and JBC. How many shots are in this scenario?
At least four shots fired of course. Which means there had to be more than one shooter.
Hence the necessity of the SBT to the Warren Commish after it was confirmed that at least one shot missed the motorcade.
Initially, the FBI didn't account for a missed shot.
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At least four shots fired of course. Which means there had to be more than one shooter.
Hence the necessity of the SBT to the Warren Commish after it was confirmed that at least one shot missed the motorcade.
Initially, the FBI didn't account for a missed shot.
4+? How was it confirmed a shot missed?
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You really should talk to a therapist about your Boomer KGB paranoia. :D
I forgot his name so I looked it up.
"Sam Kinney" is the name of the deceased SS agent who had a similar story about bringing a bullet to Parkland hospital:
I don't believe CE399 ended up at Parkland by chance. I believe someone placed it on a stretcher. Whether it was Landis or Kinney, I don't know.
Between these SS stories and the glaring Chain of custody problems, we can reasonably doubt that CE399 is the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connolly (if they were struck by the same bullet). It may not even be the bullet that was found on a stretcher at Parkland.
"Sam Kinney" is the name of the deceased SS agent who had a similar story about bringing a bullet to Parkland hospital:
Even you must admit that story is absolutely bonkers, without a thorough investigation of the crime scene, and knowing the full extent of the injury to Kennedy and the injury to Connally, there is NO way to know what type of bullet to bring because of so many random variable factors.
What if an extra bullet turned up?
How at that stage could any one possibly know the true extent of the injuries?
How could they know to flatten CE399 on only one side?
How could they know only a small amount of lead was left in Connally?
How could they know to remove a small amount of lead from CE399 to equal the small amount of lead in Connally?
Here are some random bullets, which one to choose? Hmmm?
The one with one side flattened?
The one with missing lead?
The one with not so much missing lead?
The one with the deformed nose?
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdN6JMf3/ce-399-goat-wrist.jpg)
JohnM
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At least four shots were fired, of course.
LOL!
Three shots were fired.
Hence the necessity of the SBT to the Warren Commish after it was confirmed that at least one shot missed the motorcade.
Correct, but remember there were three shots total and Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three of them.
Initially, the FBI didn't account for a missed shot.
IIRC, originally, the Warren Commission, which was largely based on the FBI's investigations, posited that the first (missing everything) shot (of three total shots) was fired when the limo was at point "A," i.e., near the corner of the "island" separating Elm Street from Elm Street Extension. And it was right, of course.
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Three shots were fired.
Inconclusive.
We simply don't know based on the forensic evidence how many shots were fired. However, we do know that if there were more than three shots fired, there were multiple shooters.
Correct, but remember there were three shots total and Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three of them.
IIRC, originally, the Warren Commission, which was largely based on the FBI's investigations, posited that the first (missing everything) shot (of three total shots) was fired when the limo was at point "A," i.e., near the corner of the "island" separating Elm Street from Elm Street Extension. And it was right, of course.
FYI, the FBI's initial investigation concluded that three shots were fired and none missed:
(https://i.ibb.co/Swwj67xR/jfka.png)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10402#relPageId=8
The SBT was born months later after it was confirmed that at least one shot missed the limo.
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Inconclusive.
We simply don't know based on the forensic evidence how many shots were fired. However, we do know that if there were more than three shots fired, there were multiple shooters.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QQyYf2C/Pie-Chart-With-Caption-Number-Of-Shots.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/43FnMHVq/CE510-Three-Bullet-Shells-On-The-Floor.jpg)
Also worth noting is 94% of the earwitnesses said the shots came from only one direction and since both Connally and Kennedy were struck from behind therefore all shots came from behind. The echo chamber of Dealey Plaza easily explains why earwitnesses had trouble differentiating a direction but shots from both ends of Dealey Plaza would be obvious.
(https://www.jfk-assassination.net/pdf/Thompson.png)
JohnM
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Oh, good, let's debate the SBT for the 9,342nd time! That'll be productive! Someone is sure to say something new and exciting!
NOT
I am disappointed, my fellow CTers. I started this thread with confidence that the brightest of us (who are they, anyway?) could provide rational, logical, coherent answers to my little questions as to how our view of CE 399 makes any sense. But nooooo, I get crickets and yet another mind-numbing foray into the SBT. My fellow CTers, we're better than this ...
OR AREN'T WE?
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We simply don't know based on the forensic evidence how many shots were fired.
Three shells were found in the Sniper's Nest.
CE-399, which was fired from Oswald's short-rifle, is, from all appearances, missing the same amount of lead core as the combined amount that was either removed from JBC's body or left in place inside it.
CE-399, and only CE-399, can account for all seven non-headshot wounds sustained by JFK and JBC.
The largish bullet fragments found inside the limo were ballistically traced to Oswald's short-rifle.
The autopsy doctors said the bullet that penetrated JFK's skull did do near his External Occipital Protuberance, the thickest part of his skull. This explains why that bulled fragmented.
CE-399 was traveling only about 900 feet per second when it struck the radial bone in JBC's wrist, which explains why it didn't fragment more than it did when it stuck it.
The majority of witnesses, including the three TSBD workers immediately below the Sniper's Nest, heard a total of three shots.
However, we do know that if there were more than three shots fired, there were multiple shooters.
Finally, a logical assumption!
The problem for CTs is . . . only three shots were fired, and they were fired over a total of 10.2 seconds.
The SBT was born months later after it was confirmed that at least one shot missed the limo.
Fine.
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There were 4 shots. The first shot by Oswald was at Z160, but many of the witnesses claim the first was at Z223/224. First shot missed, second hit both(SBT is fact), third shot hit JFK's head from behind,
and the fourth hit his head from the front causing the rapid Bang-Bang sound many heard. My opinion only.
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There were 4 shots. The first shot by Oswald was at Z160, but many of the witnesses claim the first was at Z223/224. First shot missed, second hit both(SBT is fact), third shot hit JFK's head from behind,
and the fourth hit his head from the front causing the rapid Bang-Bang sound many heard. My opinion only.
You're wrong.
There were three shots.
All three of them came from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest.
The first one missed everything and was fired at hypothetical "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
The shots were fired over 10.2 seconds in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza.
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Also worth noting is 94% of the earwitnesses said the shots came from only one direction and since both Connally and Kennedy were struck from behind therefore all shots came from behind. The echo chamber of Dealey Plaza easily explains why earwitnesses had trouble differentiating a direction but shots from both ends of Dealey Plaza would be obvious.
JohnM
The number of shell casings found in the Book Depository doesn't prove that only three shots were fired. Based on the available evidence, it cannot be ruled out that there were multiple shooters and more than three shots fired.
Ear witnesses are unreliable.
Garbage in-garbage out.
Question to you Mr Mytton, how many bullets or how much ammo did Oswald own? Are we expected to believe the three bullets he allegedly used on 11/22/63 were the only ammunition he owned? If not, where did he store his bullets?
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The number of shell casings found in the Book Depository doesn't prove that only three shots were fired. Based on the available evidence, it cannot be ruled out that there were multiple shooters and more than three shots fired.
Ear witnesses are unreliable.
Garbage in-garbage out.
Question to you Mr Mytton, how many bullets or how much ammo did Oswald own? Are we expected to believe the three bullets he allegedly used on 11/22/63 were the only ammunition he owned? If not, where did he store his bullets?
No one asked me :'(, but Jack Nessan and his co-author argue pretty persuasively in Phantom Shot that Oswald fired only two shots and (as I recall) that the dented shell was one Oswald had used for dry firing and had been ejected when he loaded the first live round). A little box from a store in Ft. Worth where Marguerite had once worked was found in Oswald's possession and would have been a perfect fit for a few Carcano rounds. I know from experience that a standard box of 20 high-caliber rounds has always been pretty expensive; my guess would be that he'd never owned more than one box, had used up all the rest in practice with the rifle, and was down to his last 3 or 4 rounds (including the live one found in the rifle) when he shot JFK. The one in the rifle perhaps was saved in case he encountered anyone in exiting the sixth floor.
Because I'm familiar with the acoustics of rifle shots in an environment like Dealey Plaza, I attach little significance to how many shots the earwitnesses thought were fired or where they were coming from. In my own experience, this can be astonishingly misleading.
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No one asked me :'(, but Jack Nessan and his co-author argue pretty persuasively in Phantom Shot that Oswald fired only two shots and (as I recall) that the dented shell was one Oswald had used for dry firing and had been ejected when he loaded the first live round). A little box from a store in Ft. Worth where Marguerite had once worked was found in Oswald's possession and would have been a perfect fit for a few Carcano rounds. I know from experience that a standard box of 20 high-caliber rounds has always been pretty expensive; my guess would be that he'd never owned more than one box, had used up all the rest in practice with the rifle, and was down to his last 3 or 4 rounds (including the live one found in the rifle) when he shot JFK. The one in the rifle perhaps was saved in case he encountered anyone in exiting the sixth floor.
So it's reasonable to believe that prior to 11/22, LHO owned only three bullets and he used all but three bullets from a single box of 20 bullets months before the assassination?
I understand that we'll never know the answer to some questions but it's strange how little we know about where Oswald purchased his ammo and where he kept his stock of bullets.
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So it's reasonable to believe that prior to 11/22, LHO owned only three bullets and he used all but three bullets from a single box of 20 bullets months before the assassination?
I understand that we'll never know the answer to some questions but it's strange how little we know about where Oswald purchased his ammo and where he kept his stock of bullets.
...actually he had four. He was saving them up. :D
https://jfk.boards.net/post/4214/thread
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No one asked me :'(, but Jack Nessan and his co-author argue pretty persuasively in Phantom Shot that Oswald fired only two shots and (as I recall) that the dented shell was one Oswald had used for dry firing and had been ejected when he loaded the first live round). A little box from a store in Ft. Worth where Marguerite had once worked was found in Oswald's possession and would have been a perfect fit for a few Carcano rounds. I know from experience that a standard box of 20 high-caliber rounds has always been pretty expensive; my guess would be that he'd never owned more than one box, had used up all the rest in practice with the rifle, and was down to his last 3 or 4 rounds (including the live one found in the rifle) when he shot JFK. The one in the rifle perhaps was saved in case he encountered anyone in exiting the sixth floor.
Because I'm familiar with the acoustics of rifle shots in an environment like Dealey Plaza, I attach little significance to how many shots the earwitnesses thought were fired or where they were coming from. In my own experience, this can be astonishingly misleading.
Do you doubt Oswald's having enough time to fire all three shots?
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Do you doubt Oswald's having enough time to fire all three shots?
When and where did he fire "all three shots"?
Can you place him at the 6th floor of the TSBD at 12.30 PM on 11/22/63 or do you just want us to assume he was there?
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When and where did he fire "all three shots"?
Can you place him at the 6th floor of the TSBD at 12.30 PM on 11/22/63 or do you just want us to assume he was there?
Can you prove Oswald was not on the 6th floor of the TSBD at 12:30 on 11/22/1963 or do you just want us to assume he wasn't there??
JohnM
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...actually he had four. He was saving them up. :D
https://jfk.boards.net/post/4214/thread
"There were 3 shells left on the sixth floor and one bullet chambered in the gun. That's it.
In Lee's possessions, there are no other bullets, shells, empty boxes, or maintenance kit for the rifle.
A cleaning kit would be essential for continued upkeep and usage of the gun.
After shooting Gen Walker, Lee allegedly buried the rifle near some railroad tracks before he brought it to New Orleans.
A quick check of the Dallas weather history finds no rain April 10th, but the hottest day on record for that month. [still]
For a few days after the Walker shooting, no rain, but still very hot, the dew point peaked at 68 in that week.
A buried rifle under those conditions would need immediate cleaning and maintenance care.
There is no evidence of where it was buried, for how long, or how he retrieved it. No old boxes or cleaning kit to maintain it.
Just 4 bullets."
Excellent points Michael. Thanks
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"There were 3 shells left on the sixth floor and one bullet chambered in the gun. That's it.
In Lee's possessions, there are no other bullets, shells, empty boxes, or maintenance kit for the rifle.
A cleaning kit would be essential for continued upkeep and usage of the gun.
After shooting Gen Walker, Lee allegedly buried the rifle near some railroad tracks before he brought it to New Orleans.
A quick check of the Dallas weather history finds no rain April 10th, but the hottest day on record for that month. [still]
For a few days after the Walker shooting, no rain, but still very hot, the dew point peaked at 68 in that week.
A buried rifle under those conditions would need immediate cleaning and maintenance care.
There is no evidence of where it was buried, for how long, or how he retrieved it. No old boxes or cleaning kit to maintain it.
Just 4 bullets."
Excellent points Michael. Thanks
Nope. The father of my late wife was an old cowpoke rancher and avid hunter who owned more high-quality firearms than you or I will ever even think about. He used to rib me incessantly for carefully maintaining my guns. "I let each bullet clean up after the one before it," he'd say. Cleaning kits? No. Immediate cleaning and maintenance? No. A funky old Carcano is not going to go to pot because it's been fired 15 times and stored in a blanket. For that matter, you can wipe down and oil a barrel without a cleaning kit.
Yes, I do believe it's reasonable that cheapskate Oswald never had more than one box of 20 rounds of ammunition and was down to 3 or 4 (depending on whether you think 2 or 3 shots were fired) on 11-22. The notion of a dry firing round still being in the chamber does gibe with my belief that this was a very impromptu, last-minute assassination. He went to Ruth Paine's, got the gun, assembled it and used it as-is.
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Do you doubt Oswald's having enough time to fire all three shots?
No, not at all. I do like to play around with other scenarios. I'm still working on the back wound really being a shallow misfire, the throat wound being a fragment from the head wound, and a separate shot hitting Connally. It probably doesn't work, but I find it amusing that 60+ years later well-intentioned people are still debating how many shots were fired, when they were fired, and where they were fired from.
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When and where did he fire "all three shots"?
Can you place him at the 6th floor of the TSBD at 12.30 PM on 11/22/63 or do you just want us to assume he was there?
Weedyman,
Where do you think (sic) Oswald was when the shots were being fired? In the "Domino Room," eating his cheese sandwich and apple? On the way to the second-floor lunchroom to inexplicably buy a bottle of Coke (not his favorite, Dr. Pepper, the dispensing machine for which was on the first floor), outside the front door, praying in a dark corner? Or [fill in the blank]?
Regardless, how many evil, evil bad guys and really, really bad gals do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting and the all-important cover up?
Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
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No, not at all. I do like to play around with other scenarios. I'm still working on the back wound really being a shallow misfire, the throat wound being a fragment from the head wound, and a separate shot hitting Connally. It probably doesn't work, but I find it amusing that 60+ years later well-intentioned people are still debating how many shots were fired, when they were fired, and where they were fired from.
Oh My God
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Oh My God
Hey, it's a lot more fun and interesting that debating the SBT or BYP for the 8,573rd time! :D
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No, not at all. I do like to play around with other scenarios. I'm still working on the back wound really being a shallow misfire, the throat wound being a fragment from the head wound, and a separate shot hitting Connally. It probably doesn't work, but I find it amusing that 60+ years later well-intentioned people are still debating how many shots were fired, when they were fired, and where they were fired from.
I'm still working on the back wound really being a shallow misfire
There were no missiles detected by X-rays within Kennedy but there is a possibility that a bullet could have just worked it's way out when the Parkland Doctors were attempting to revive him? Personally I find that unlikely but then again CE-399 which at this point was going much, much slower, did in fact just fall out of Connally's thigh?
Another consideration is if a misfired bullet didn't penetrate very far then it obviously had a lower speed so wouldn't it's trajectory fall short of it's target but I guess that this shot would have been aimed at Kennedy's head so perhaps a slower bullet striking there could be ballistically possible?
Mr. SPECTER - Did you search the body to determine if there was any bullet inside the body?
Commander HUMES - Before the arrival of Colonel Finck we had made X-rays of the head, neck and torso of the President, and the upper portions of his major extremities, or both his upper and lower extremities. At Colonel Finck's suggestion, we then completed the X-ray examination by X-raying the President's body in toto, and those X-rays are available.
Mr. SPECTER - What did those X-rays disclose with respect to the possible presence of a missile in the President's body?
Commander HUMES - They showed no evidence of a missile in the President's body at any point. And these were examined by ourselves and by the radiologist, who assisted us in this endeavor.
JohnM
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Hey, it's a lot more fun and interesting that debating the SBT or BYP for the 8,573rd time! :D
The problem is you're publicizing it and thereby providing fuel to KGB*-encouraged tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorists.
I'm sure you're aware that there are tiny bubbles in the X-ray showing the path of CE-399, and that by the time the autopsy doctors started probing that track, rigor mortis had set in on JFK's corpse, making the probing of same impossible?
*Today's SVR and FSB
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The problem is you're publicizing it and thereby providing fuel to KGB*-encouraged tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorists.
It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. I asked Langley for a change of assignment to the 9/11 Truthers, but all I got was a $12 raise, a pat on the back and assurances I was Their Guy to stir up the tinfoil-hat CTers.
I'm trying to work out a plausible alternative scenario for the Resurrection as well, not to mention a new and definitive theory on the Shroud of Turin, so maybe I'll focus on those for a while.
I'm sure you're aware that there are tiny bubbles in the X-ray showing the path of CE-399, and that by the time the autopsy doctors started probing that track, rigor mortis had set in on JFK's corpse, making the probing of same impossible?
*Today's SVR and FSB
Tiny bubbles, in the X-ray,
Make me happy, make me feel fine.
Tiny bubbles, show the path
Of that culprit, 399.
Rigor mortis, blocks the probing,
Of that culprit, 399.
Wasn't that a hit by Dean Martin in the late 60's?
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This topic appears to be another failed attempt at trolling by people who have no lives :D
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This topic appears to be another failed attempt at trolling by people who have no lives :D
I admittedly have no life, but I did put a fair amount of effort into my little questions as to how the CT perspective on CE 399 makes any sense at all - or, more specifically, why it isn't complete and utter nonsense.
If you would care to make an effort to address those questions in a rational and coherent manner, then you would (1) establish that you do, in fact, have a life, and (2) add some spice to my dreary non-existence. Go for it!
Do people who refer to posts of the depth and substance of mine as "trolling" actually have lives or are they, in fact, just trolling themselves? Enquiring minds want to know. Go for it - answer them there questions in a rational and coherent manner and prove you aren't one of them there trolls!
I have observed from afar that this is a new phenomenon on the Ed Forum as well. Instead of merely shifting the goal posts as they used to do whenever confronted with inconvenient facts and questions, CTers now leap to screams of "Cognitive infiltration!!!" and "Trolling!!!" whenever a Lone Nut advocate rears his or her head. It suggests a new level of, well, yes ... desperation.
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How do you explain JBC holding his hat next to his soon to be injured wrist over a second after JFK reacted to his throat wound?
Did the bullet pause in mid-air?
"Although the radius was shattered, the other bone is his forearm, the ulna, was intact, stabilizing his wrist and hand. All the tendons, muscles, and motor nerves that powered his fingers and thumb were also undamaged. It is sometimes claimed that there was an injury to the radial nerve, but it was actually to a small branch of the radial nerve, well below the muscles of the forearm, which could not have affected his grip. That nerve is sensory only, not affecting any movement. The one severed tendon would only have disabled the abduction of his hand at the wrist (lateral movement of the hand in the direction of the thumb). The smashing of the radius disabled the rotation of his forearm, a loss he never completely regained. Physically, however, he was as capable of gripping a hat immediately after the injury as he was before the shot." -- pages 153 and 154, of The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, by Larry SPersonivan
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472
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Inconclusive.
We simply don't know based on the forensic evidence how many shots were fired. However, we do know that if there were more than three shots fired, there were multiple shooters.
FYI, the FBI's initial investigation concluded that three shots were fired and none missed:
(https://i.ibb.co/Swwj67xR/jfka.png)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10402#relPageId=8
The SBT was born months later after it was confirmed that at least one shot missed the limo.
The FBI summary report was completed without the benefit of anyone in the agency having read the autopsy report or questioning the autopsy pathologists. They were going by the FD-302 of Sibert and O'Neill.
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"Sam Kinney" is the name of the deceased SS agent who had a similar story about bringing a bullet to Parkland hospital:
I don't believe CE399 ended up at Parkland by chance. I believe someone placed it on a stretcher. Whether it was Landis or Kinney, I don't know.
Sam Kinney did not have a story about bringing a bullet to Parkland. Sam Kinney's neighbor has a story about Kinney bringing a bullet to Parkland hospital. Landis is not credible.
https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-paul-landis-really-find-a-bullet
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Lance Payette strawman-du-jour.
Who says CE399 was ever at Parkland?
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That is another curious aspect of Conspiracy World. CTers seem to regard themselves as members of some monolithic Brotherhood, even though there must be at least 25 full-blown but irreconcilable conspiracy theories.
No, it's just the LN-faithful who march in lock-step like lemmings off a cliff.
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1. Knowing Tomlinson and Wright have found and handled a pointy-headed bullet that looks entirely different from CE 399, the conspirators nevertheless adopt Tomlinson and Wright as the linchpins of a CE 399-was-found-at-Parkland scenario and yet leave them free to say CE 399 doesn’t look like the bullet they found? Why do the conspirators do this, why do they run these seemingly insane risks? Who decided this seemed like a good plan?
2. Why do the conspirators need Tomlinson and Wright at all? Why don’t they just say the Tomlinson bullet was unrelated to the JFKA and have a SS agent (Landis!) say CE 399 was found in the limo or fell out of Connally’s pants? How does the Tomlinson-Wright scenario make anything better?
3. Why do the conspirators need CE 399 at all? What does it add to the Lone Nut narrative? Why do they need another bullet from Oswald’s rifle? How do they know how many fragments may eventually be found in the limo or elsewhere in Dealey Plaza? What if CE 399 turns out to make things far worse?
4. Why do the conspirators fire CE 399 into a tank of water or cotton wool? Since they have the luxury of time, why do they generate a bullet as problematical as CE 399? Why not fire into a dead cow or even a cadaver? Fire ten bullets until one looks "just right."
5. Is CE 399 somehow critical to the SBT? Why? Isn’t it more of a problem for the SBT than a help? Had the SBT been formulated at this early date, long before it was even a gleam in Specter’s eye?
6. Why create a chain of custody for CE 399 that includes Tomlinson and Wright at all? Just establish a chain of custody for the pointy-headed bullet and say it turned out to be unrelated to the JFKA. Even if we ignore Tomlinson and Wright, the chain of custody for CE 399 is problematical anyway (as Thompson pointed out). Why would there be any flaws in the chain of custody if CE 399 had been created outside of Parkland? The conspirators couldn’t even get that right?
This just goes nowhere – does it, my fellow CTers? It’s just ad hoc to the 32nd degree, isn’t it? We can do better than this – can’t we?
This old tired line of argumentation is typical for the LN-evangelist who comes up short in proving that their faith-based story is actually true. It goes like this:
This vast Conspiracy I just dreamed up in my head that plans out every little intricate possible detail in advance and never makes detectible mistakes would never do [insert contrived strawman scenario here]. Therefore, there was no conspiracy. Therefore Oswald did it.
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The bottom line being that the unlikely condition of CE 399 and the defects in the chain of custody actually cut in favor of authenticity.
Trying to have it both ways, take one zillion and two.
If the condition of CE 399 were "likely" and it had a valid chain of custody, then it is authentic.
If the condition of CE 399 were "unlikely" and it had no valid chain of custody, then it is authentic.
This tells me that what the LN-faithful believe has absolutely nothing to do with the actual evidence.
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Can you prove Oswald was not on the 6th floor of the TSBD at 12:30 on 11/22/1963 or do you just want us to assume he wasn't there??
If all else fails, try to shift the burden of proof.
LOL.
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Sam Kinney did not have a story about bringing a bullet to Parkland. Sam Kinney's neighbor has a story about Kinney bringing a bullet to Parkland hospital. Landis is not credible.
Anything that conflicts with the official fantasy is "not credible" by definition.
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If all else fails, try to shift the burden of proof.
LOL.
Thanks for reinforcing the fact that the guy who owned the rifle found on the 6th floor, didn't have an alibi!
JohnM
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Can you prove Oswald was not on the 6th floor of the TSBD at 12:30 on 11/22/1963 or do you just want us to assume he wasn't there??
JohnM
I don't have to prove anything. You make the claim that he was there, so it's up to you that he was.
Thanks for reinforcing the fact that the guy who owned the rifle found on the 6th floor, didn't have an alibi!
JohnM
Nice try to pivot away from the subject of the discussion. Too bad it isn't working.
Even if Oswald didn't have an alibi, that still does not mean he was on the 6th floor at 12:30.
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You make the claim that he was there, so it's up to you that he was.
Sorry Martin ALL the evidence, from Oswald owning the rifle, Oswald's immediate flight from the scene of the crime, Oswald killing Tippit, Oswald attempting to kill more cops as he resisted arrest through to his multitude if lies while being interrogated, is conclusive evidence of Oswald doing the deed, therefore the burden of proof is on you to prove that Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor at 12:30 on the 22nd of November 1963!
Well, waiting....Zzzzz...
JohnM
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Sorry Martin ALL the evidence, from Oswald owning the rifle, Oswald's immediate flight from the scene of the crime, Oswald killing Tippit, Oswald attempting to kill more cops as he resisted arrest through to his multitude if lies while being interrogated, is conclusive evidence of Oswald doing the deed, therefore the burden of proof is on you to prove that Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor at 12:30 on the 22nd of November 1963!
Well, waiting....Zzzzz...
JohnM
Nope, you don't get to make all sorts of wild and questionable claims and then consider them true unless you are proven wrong.
This has been explained to you time after time, but perhaps they do things differently in your alternate reality.
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Nope, you don't get to make all sorts of wild and questionable claims and then consider them true unless you are proven wrong.
This has been explained to you time after time, but perhaps they do things differently in your alternate reality.
Weidmann,
How many people do you figure were wittingly involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
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the fact that the guy who owned the rifle found on the 6th floor
LOL
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LOL
Iacoletti,
An inane "LOL!" was your reply to Mytton's saying, "Thanks [Iacoletti] for reinforcing the fact that the guy [Oswald] who owned the rifle found on the 6th floor didn't have an alibi."
Question: How many evil, evil bad guys and/or really, really bad gals do you figure were involved, altogether, in acquiring that short-rifle, firing CE-399 and the bullet from which the largish fragments found inside the limo came, and planting it on the sixth floor with Oswald's palm print on the barrel under the stock (or, as you claim, just his palm print on an index card) and his fingerprint on the trigger guard ?
Just a few, or oodles and gobs?