Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady  (Read 5511 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7322
Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2020, 02:52:02 PM »
Advertisement
A lot of details: Well thought out, but as others have said, it cannot be proven as the only alternative. Again we see the possibility of timing discrepancies being a "possible" explanation for a perceived anomaly.

I am not sure what you are going on about. There is no "only alternative" to be proven. The WC dismissed the testimony of Victoria Adams based upon her seeing Shelley and Lovelady after coming down from the stairs. They never resolved how much time passed between Adams and Styles arriving on the first floor and them seeing Shelley and Lovelady there. So we are left with their testimonies and there clearly is a time discrepancy between two scenarios.

All I am trying to do is look at the only two options the available evidence provides us with;

1. Adams & Styles went down the stairs before Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker come up, in which case the combined testimony of Shelley and Lovelady shows conclusively that the girls couldn't not have seen them when they came of the stairs because both men were not ,and could not have been, there at around 12.31

or

2. Adams & Styles did see Shelley and Lovelady as they came down the stairs (which is what the WC claimed) which means that they must have waited on the 4th floor for several minutes after the shots, which does not compute with Adams' testimony and Garner's observation. Also, had they stayed up there, they should have seen Oswald running over the landing from stairs to stairs, which they didn't.

There are no more options, at least not that I am aware of. To reconcile both scenarios and do justice to all the available evidence, I would suggest that Adams and Styles did go down the stairs directly after the shots and before Truly and Baker went up. I would further suggest that Victoria Adams did indeed see Shelley (and Lovelady) on the first floor, but only after the two men got there, several minutes after the shots and not at the moment she and Styles arrived on the first floor. Adams just never communicated that time lapse correctly in her testimony.

Edit: On 11/24/63 Victoria Adams was interviewed by FBI agents Hardin and Scott. She told them that she and Styles immediately ran to the stairs after the third shot and left the building at the back directly after coming down the stairs. They ran towards the railroad yard where a policeman stopped them and told them to return to the building, which they subsequently did. With this in mind, it seems to me that it is highly unlikely that Adams could have seen Shelley and Lovelady immediately after coming down the stairs for the simple reason that both men's testimony shows that they were not and could not have been there at that time. However, it would be possible and plausible for Adams to have seen those men as she re-entered the building, several minutes later.

If my suggestion is true the WC got it wrong and dismissed Adams' testimony without cause. In that case Adams and Styles did go down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up, making it a very tight fit for anybody coming from the 6th floor to run down to the second floor unseen by anybody. If the suggestion is incorrect, I don't really see any other scenario that would provide a plausible explanation and do justice to all the available evidence.


This is one of those matters that is peripheral to the actual assassination. It does not eliminate the existence of a 6th floor shooter (Oswald or the hitman). If you substitute the 6th floor shooter for Oswald, very little if anything changes in post-kill circumstances. One might ask: Why didn't Adams see the "hitman" on the stairs?

None of this is really relevant to my question. Nobody claimed it eliminated the existence of a 6th floor shooter, but the answer to the contradiction in the testimonies does go towards the basic matter of Adams and Styles not seeing or hearing anybody on the stairs.

Incidentally, I'm not buying the preposterous theory that the "hitman" stayed behind on the 6th floor posing as a detective and then slipped out of the TSBD when the real cops were distracted with their duties.

As you are a contrarian, I expected no less that an outright denial from you, so there is no surprise there. Unlike you, though, I am not going to ask you for evidence in support of your "claim"! I bet you can't even explain why the theory is "preposterous" in the first place anyway. Nor am I going to tell you how I think you should respond to my posts, like you constantly do.


I don't know when Adams and Styles were on the stairs.....But it seems reasonable that It was within a minute or so after the shots were fired...   Adams recalls seeing the Lincoln at the underpass ( and that rings true because the trees had blocked her view at the time of the shooting, and since she couldn't see what had happened, so she wanted to get down to the street ASAP) 

They ran towards the railroad yard where a policeman stopped them and told them to return to the building, which they subsequently did.   Something told them the shots had come from the railroad yard ( and not two floors above their heads)

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2020, 02:52:02 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7322
Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2020, 03:01:52 PM »
Ross really has a lot of trouble realizing that possibilities are just that.

And there are a lot of them.  Only Oswald has to be in the 2nd floor lunchroom 75-90 seconds after the last shot.  A different shooter could be anywhere when Adams and Styles went downstairs.  For example hiding on the seventh floor.  Or on the sixth floor for that matter.  And then coming down in the elevator when Truly and Baker were on the roof, for example.  in fact, the evidence is that somebody came down in the elevator during that time.

The carcano had not been fired that day......and there were no shots fired from the TSBD.

Offline Bill Chapman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6506
Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2020, 03:28:41 PM »
Anybody but Oswald

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2020, 03:28:41 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2020, 03:49:58 PM »
Anybody but Oswald

Thanks for your ever useful contribution.

I take this means you've got nothing to counter the basic facts presented in this thread.

Now, why am I not surprised?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 04:02:54 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7322
Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2020, 03:57:19 PM »
A lot of details: Well thought out, but as others have said, it cannot be proven as the only alternative. Again we see the possibility of timing discrepancies being a "possible" explanation for a perceived anomaly.

I am not sure what you are going on about. There is no "only alternative" to be proven. The WC dismissed the testimony of Victoria Adams based upon her seeing Shelley and Lovelady after coming down from the stairs. They never resolved how much time passed between Adams and Styles arriving on the first floor and them seeing Shelley and Lovelady there. So we are left with their testimonies and there clearly is a time discrepancy between two scenarios.

All I am trying to do is look at the only two options the available evidence provides us with;

1. Adams & Styles went down the stairs before Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker come up, in which case the combined testimony of Shelley and Lovelady shows conclusively that the girls couldn't not have seen them when they came of the stairs because both men were not ,and could not have been, there at around 12.31

or

2. Adams & Styles did see Shelley and Lovelady as they came down the stairs (which is what the WC claimed) which means that they must have waited on the 4th floor for several minutes after the shots, which does not compute with Adams' testimony and Garner's observation. Also, had they stayed up there, they should have seen Oswald running over the landing from stairs to stairs, which they didn't.

There are no more options, at least not that I am aware of. To reconcile both scenarios and do justice to all the available evidence, I would suggest that Adams and Styles did go down the stairs directly after the shots and before Truly and Baker went up. I would further suggest that Victoria Adams did indeed see Shelley (and Lovelady) on the first floor, but only after the two men got there, several minutes after the shots and not at the moment she and Styles arrived on the first floor. Adams just never communicated that time lapse correctly in her testimony.

Edit: On 11/24/63 Victoria Adams was interviewed by FBI agents Hardin and Scott. She told them that she and Styles immediately ran to the stairs after the third shot and left the building at the back directly after coming down the stairs. They ran towards the railroad yard where a policeman stopped them and told them to return to the building, which they subsequently did. With this in mind, it seems to me that it is highly unlikely that Adams could have seen Shelley and Lovelady immediately after coming down the stairs for the simple reason that both men's testimony shows that they were not and could not have been there at that time. However, it would be possible and plausible for Adams to have seen those men as she re-entered the building, several minutes later.

If my suggestion is true the WC got it wrong and dismissed Adams' testimony without cause. In that case Adams and Styles did go down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up, making it a very tight fit for anybody coming from the 6th floor to run down to the second floor unseen by anybody. If the suggestion is incorrect, I don't really see any other scenario that would provide a plausible explanation and do justice to all the available evidence.


This is one of those matters that is peripheral to the actual assassination. It does not eliminate the existence of a 6th floor shooter (Oswald or the hitman). If you substitute the 6th floor shooter for Oswald, very little if anything changes in post-kill circumstances. One might ask: Why didn't Adams see the "hitman" on the stairs?

None of this is really relevant to my question. Nobody claimed it eliminated the existence of a 6th floor shooter, but the answer to the contradiction in the testimonies does go towards the basic matter of Adams and Styles not seeing or hearing anybody on the stairs.

Incidentally, I'm not buying the preposterous theory that the "hitman" stayed behind on the 6th floor posing as a detective and then slipped out of the TSBD when the real cops were distracted with their duties.

As you are a contrarian, I expected no less that an outright denial from you, so there is no surprise there. Unlike you, though, I am not going to ask you for evidence in support of your "claim"! I bet you can't even explain why the theory is "preposterous" in the first place anyway. Nor am I going to tell you how I think you should respond to my posts, like you constantly do.


If my suggestion is true the WC got it wrong and dismissed Adams' testimony without cause. In that case Adams and Styles did go down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up, making it a very tight fit for anybody coming from the 6th floor to run down to the second floor unseen by anybody. If the suggestion is incorrect, I don't really see any other scenario that would provide a plausible explanation and do justice to all the available evidence.

Well said!...... Thumb1:

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2020, 03:57:19 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10812
Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2020, 06:24:45 PM »
Thanks for your ever useful contribution.

I take this means you've got nothing to counter the basic facts presented in this thread.

Now, why am I not surprised?

Data and evidence are complicated.  Better to stick to "clever" one-liners and movie clips.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2020, 06:24:45 PM »