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Author Topic: Challenge to Cyril Wecht  (Read 9779 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2023, 08:53:07 PM »
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Hathcock appeared to have had trouble duplicating the shooting. Perhaps he used a 5-6 second time limit that many have believed in since the book Six Seconds in Dallas. But another good shooter, Michael Yardley, using his best timing estimates, did not find it that difficult as mentioned in his magazine. Yardley clearly implied the Carcano was by no means a top-of-the-line gun, but it was sufficient in his 7-8 seconds testing. The following quote is from Yardley’s magazine.

“Regular readers of this magazine may remember that some years back, I was also in Dallas on the Kennedy trail. On that trip, I proved that the shots could be made with the 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano rifle allegedly used by Oswald and fitted with a cheap ‘tin-whistle’ 4 power telescopic sight.

I made them repeatedly (half a dozen times) in the required 7-8 second time frame firing from the correct height, at the correct ranges at a vehicle moving at the correct speed using an exact replica of the Oswald rifle and scope and identical ammunition. On the first run, I hit the head target as a crossing shot at about 45 yards (which apparently Oswald missed), I also connected on the next two shots at 60 plus 90 plus yards respectively. [We did the shooting on a specially built range at the levy in Dallas - where Oswald is believed to have practiced for the shooting.]

The declared second shot - if you believe the Warren Commission official Report - was at an oblique angle (the famous magic bullet shot). It allegedly went through JFK’s back exited at his throat and went on to hit Governor Connally. The third shot - and many have suggested that there may have been more - was the killing shot where JFK’s head apparent is pushed back (leading to many suggestions that there was a second gunman positioned forward of the presidential cavalcade).

Here’s my bottom line from experience of using the weapon system. The Carcano is a poor gun, and the optical sight found upon it (as presented as evidence) was even worse - the sort of cheap thing with a moving reticule that was once used on air-rifles (I had something similar on my BSA Airsporter when I was a kid). The gun is up to the task, however - just. And, the shots with it are possible within the given time frame. I have made them again and again. Other reports notwithstanding, I believe any competent rifleman would have had a good chance of connecting at least once.”

If Yardley had tried the test taking 10 seconds, perhaps he may have found that a competent rifleman would have had even an easier time in getting those results.

Hathcock appeared to have had trouble duplicating the shooting. Perhaps he used a 5-6 second time limit that many have believed in since the book Six Seconds in Dallas.

Perhaps?

But another good shooter, Michael Yardley, using his best timing estimates, did not find it that difficult as mentioned in his magazine.

Estimates?

Yardley clearly implied the Carcano was by no means a top-of-the-line gun, but it was sufficient in his 7-8 seconds testing.

So he is going with his own estimate to determine what the time-frame for the three shots was?

I made them repeatedly (half a dozen times) in the required 7-8 second time frame

Oswald is supposed to have made the shots, using a just re-assembled Carcano, in one go. No trials, no test firing and no repeated attempts.....

On the first run, I hit the head target as a crossing shot at about 45 yards (which apparently Oswald missed), I also connected on the next two shots at 60 plus 90 plus yards respectively.

So, Yardley couldn't replicate what Oswald is supposed to have done in one go?

[We did the shooting on a specially built range at the levy in Dallas - where Oswald is believed to have practiced for the shooting.]

Where is the evidence that Oswald practiced for the shooting? And how would he have been able to practice if the rifle is supposed to have been stored in Ruth Paine's garage from late September to a day before the assassination?

The gun is up to the task, however - just. And, the shots with it are possible within the given time frame. I have made them again and again.

What "given time frame"? The one he estimated?

Other reports notwithstanding, I believe any competent rifleman would have had a good chance of connecting at least once.”

What he seems to believe isn't really of any significance if he leaves out of the equation that the shooter only had a couple of seconds using a re-assembled rifle which allegedly had been stored in a garage, where it was moved around several times.

If Yardley had tried the test taking 10 seconds, perhaps he may have found that a competent rifleman would have had even an easier time in getting those results.

Only 10 seconds? Why not 15?... Oh wait, the problem the WC had (which caused the SBT) is that, according to them, the shooter only had enough time to fire 3 shots. There may well have been more shots, but the WC did not want to explore that possibility.

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2023, 08:53:07 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2023, 03:00:44 AM »
Sorry Martin but these shooters from a CBS NEWS special who were not familiar with the Italian Carcano, were replicating Oswald's shots in a much shorter timespan than the now commonly accepted 8 seconds and were all trying for about a five and a half seconds, all the while doing the shooting with a non slowing down target and exposed to the elements and one rifleman achieved 3 hits, better than Oswald. So put that in your pipe and smoke it!

“Oswald’s shots”. LOL.

Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2023, 03:02:21 AM »
I can’t tell exactly why Yardley chose to spend his time on running his tests with a 7-8 second duration and using 3 shots. I didn’t see where he commented on how much effect of assembling the rifle would have. I’m not sure if it has been universally agreed to as to what sights would have been used. He just stated his overall opinion from his experiences.

If you have significantly better data than Yardley used for his combination of time, shots, and shooters, i.e. there was (between ~2 and 6 seconds) or (more than 7-8, or even 10 seconds) in combination with (less than 3 shots) or (more than 3 shots) in combination with (more than one shooter), I absolutely encourage you to continue to build on your research and verify your results with as much multiple independent pieces of physical evidence as possible.

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2023, 03:02:21 AM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2023, 07:12:06 PM »
Sit in a slowly-moving convertible and let an ex-Marine sharpshooter take three shots at you with a MC (using real ammunition) if you think it's such a piece of harmless junk. Does he seriously think it's impossible to kill someone with that "joke" of a rifle from a distance of 88 yards?

An ex-Marine "sharpshooter"??? On his best day at the range, Oswald barely qualified in the second of three qualification categories. There were three categories: Marksman, Sharpshooter, and Expert. Qualifying for one of these ratings involved firing at a rifle range using a semi-automatic rifle (i.e., no manual bolt action) at ground-level stationary targets whose location the person already knew and against which he had already practiced before firing for qualification.

As the Army's Ronald Simmons explained to the WC, the military rating of Sharpshooter required only a fraction of the skill needed to achieve the NRA rating of Master.

Yet, the three Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test, who used the alleged murder rifle itself, did not even come close to duplicating Oswald's supposed shooting feat. They missed the head and neck area of the target boards 19 out of 21 times.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2023, 07:17:36 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Steve Barber

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2023, 02:55:57 PM »
I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did "

Which justifies the conclusion that it most likely didn't happen the way the WC said it did.

Good luck trying to find a LN who is reasonable enough to even entertain that possibility.

 The shooting didn't happen exactly the way the WC said it did, but then we didn't have the technology then that we have now applied to viewing the Zapruder film, which they partially relied on to reach their conclusions.  And since the Queen Mary was used during the re-enactment of the men seated in the car, false conclusions came about.  The Queen Mary wasn't even close to proving the correct measurements between both JFK and Connally--which makes a great amount of difference when testing the single bullet hitting both men.  Connally was seated much lower, and seated to Kennedy's left within the SS-100-X, and Wecht knows this, yet he continues to lie to people about how JFK and JBC were seated in the limousine.  Bold faced lying, I might add.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 02:57:21 PM by Steve Barber »

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2023, 02:55:57 PM »


Online Sean Kneringer

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2023, 04:10:28 PM »
Qualifying for one of these ratings involved firing at a rifle range using a semi-automatic rifle (i.e., no manual bolt action) at ground-level stationary targets whose location the person already knew and against which he had already practiced before firing for qualification.


Yes, he was able to reliably hit a target well beyond the 88 yards needed in Dallas. 

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Yet, the three Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test, who used the alleged murder rifle itself, did not even come close to duplicating Oswald's supposed shooting feat. They missed the head and neck area of the target boards 19 out of 21 times.

Did they have nine to ten seconds instead of six? Was the target slowing down towards the end like the limo did in Dallas?

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2023, 04:10:28 PM »