Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?

[Richard Smith]

If you observe the spent shells being ejected at the 4.41 point of the video you may conclude that the spent shells on the floor beneath the SE corner window were NOT ejected at the time of the murder of JFK.    It should be obvious that the spent shells are flung with considerable force up and away from the rifle and they certainly wouldn't have landed in a tight group just a couple of feet from the alleged position of the rifle.

Nothing in that video supports this baseless conclusion.  And, of course, even if this assertion had any validity, the SN was enclosed by boxes, windows, and walls.  Meaning the shells would still be contained in that area.  I recall there was an actual reenactment in some documentary using the rifle in a similar SN context which demonstrated that it would have dispensed the shells almost exactly as found.  Particularly if the rifle was fired at a somewhat more elevated angle to fire the first (closer) shot than the two shots fired at longer range as the car moved down Elm.  What this current video does demonstrate is how quickly the MC rifle can be fired.  Thus, rebutting another longstanding CTer myth that it was an obsolete rifle that could not have fired the shots within a short timeframe.

[Joe Elliott]

Add to that a rifle that was supposedly loaded with only four bullets.

What makes this unbelievable? As I recall the maximum number of bullets that the cartridge could reliably hold is five. And there might not be enough time to get off all five shots while the target is at a good angle:

* moving away from the shooter.
* moving away from the shooter from a good angle, almost straight behind, which minimizes the angular velocity. This only occurs between about z220 and z345, which covers 6.8 seconds. Attempting 5 aimed shots would only allow 1.7 seconds between each aimed shot.


By the way, the way I think it most likely occurred was:

* shot at z153, which missed the limousine and JFK by 5 feet or more, with an angular velocity of the target of 4.8 degrees per second
* shot at z222, which missed the center of the head by 8 inches, with an angular velocity of the target of 1.9 degrees per second
* shot at z312, which missed the center of the head by 2 inches, with an angular velocity of the target of 0.58 degrees per second

He would have 3.7 seconds to aim between the first and second shots and 4.9 seconds to aim between the second and third.

My original post on his is at:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2640.msg93376.html#msg93376

Along comes the 'he did it alone anyway' group that cannot explain away the logic of head on shooting where you can actually see the results of your effort.

What logic is there here?

You can see the result with “head on shooting”? Where the shooter has to see through:

* the windshield is within 8 feet of JFK.
* the first row of passengers, within 6 feet of JFK
* the second row of passengers, within 3 feet of JFK

And if the shooter is able to see the results of the shooting, he is liable to see that he missed his shot because the windshield deflected the bullet. Only as deflection of 5 degrees is enough to turn an accurate shot into a miss of five inches. And seeing the target for a second shot is going to be even more difficult because of the now splintered windshield glass.

In order to see JFK. In contrast, shooting from behind:

* minimizes the odds the forward-facing passengers and Secret Service agents will see the shooter,
* Has no windshield within 12 feet or more of JFK in the way.
* Has no person within 18 feet of JFK.


So, I must confess that I still fail to see the logic of using a head on shooter.

Instead they claim lucky shots or show off shots and any other drivel that insults the intelligence. The government case against Oswald was itself based upon a ton load of lies. That skeptics like myself refuse to accept that crap is prudent but don't expect so called reasonable people to take me seriously.

I don’t see the need to claim lucky shots. Oswald was trained to shoot accurately with a rifle, using iron sights, without a scope, at targets at 200, 300 and 500 yards away, using either a standing, kneeling or lying down position. I don’t see any need for luck to hit a target that at its furthest was 88 yards away. What Oswald needed was better judgement not to attempt that first shot when the target’s angular velocity was 4.8 degrees per second.

And, by the say, you should not call yourself a “skeptic”. True skeptics do not believe in Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy theories. Such conspiracies are deemed too unlikely to be true. This has been a constant with true skeptics for over two centuries. Even if you are right, there was, somehow a Large-Secret-Conspiracy, for once, that really did exist, you should not call yourself a skeptic.

First...prove you are reasonable.

I think you need to first prove that you are reasonable.


By the way, what gets lost in this blizzard of posts the answer to the original question of this thread:

Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald’s feat?

Yes, the shooting has been successfully duplicated. Not at Dealey Plaza, where legal tests with fired rounds is extremely difficult to get permission for, being an urban environment, and never at a moving target, but at a near be rural location. This can be seen in a TV show shown about 13 years ago:

Discovery Channel: Unsolved History - JFK Conspiracy

Where Michael Yardley fired at a towed car moving at 10 mph at angles similar to those at Dealey Plaza. If anything, at more difficult angles than Oswald had.

He fired 16 shots and all hit a head size target.

The one difficulty he had was the rifle jammed in 4 of the tests attempting a series of 3 aimed shots. But did not jam in 3 of these attempts, resulting in 9 of 9 hits.

But of course, Yardley did not spend a lot of time practicing smoothly working the bolt of a Carcano rifle, without firing, as Oswald could have done. And was said to have done, according to his wife before the Warren Commission. So, Oswald’s odds of avoiding a jam might have been better than 3 in 7.

In any case, firing accurate shots with a Carcano rifle at a moving target within 100 yards? Not a problem.

[Jerry Freeman]

What makes this unbelievable?

Where did I say 'unbelievable'? 

..there might not be enough time to get off all five shots while the target is at a good angle

The ideal angle I proposed...


 
 

Where the shooter has to see through the windshield is within 8 feet of JFK.
  the first row of passengers, within 6 feet of JFK
  the second row of passengers, within 3 feet of JFK

 
The photo above was taken from a third floor window ..where is there a windshield in the way?

I must confess that I still fail...

Yeah.

[Joe Elliott]

Where did I say 'unbelievable'?  The ideal angle I proposed...


 
   
The photo above was taken from a third floor window ..where is there a windshield in the way?Yeah.

Fine, except the quote I was responding to was:

…
Along comes the 'he did it alone anyway' group that cannot explain away the logic of head on shooting where you can actually see the results of your effort.
…

By the phrase “head on shooting”, I thought you meant shooting “from straight ahead”, not from a 45-degree angle, where one would be shooting as much “from the side” as much as one was shooing “from straight ahead”.

In any case, particularly using a rifle which will likely produce a large bloody debris cloud, I don’t see why a shot would have to be “from a 45-degree angle”, or “from head on”, to see the results. One can always see the results from any angle, as long as one can see the target.

[Dan O'meara]

If you observe the spent shells being ejected at the 4.41 point of the video you may conclude that the spent shells on the floor beneath the SE corner window were NOT ejected at the time of the murder of JFK.    It should be obvious that the spent shells are flung with considerable force up and away from the rifle and they certainly wouldn't have landed in a tight group just a couple of feet from the alleged position of the rifle.

Tom Alyea reports that when he first saw the shell casings they were "laying on the floor in front of the second window in the two window casement. They were scattered in an area that could be covered by a bushel basket.". indicating all three casings were close together. He then reports Fritz stepping into the SN and picking up the casings to be filmed in his hand. Alyea doesn't see what Fritz does with the casings but "thirty minutes later, after the rifle was discovered and the crime lab arrived, Capt. Fritz reached into his pocket and handed the casings to Det. Studebaker to include in the photographs he would take of the sniper's nest crime scene."

[Quoted from https://www.jfk-online.com/alyea.html]