T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17

[Dan O'meara]

“How the palmprint can be accepted as evidence is truly baffling.”

Because the FBI identified the palmprint, CE 2637, taken from LHO's rifle as having the irregularities associated with the barrel of the rifle and these irregularities from the barrel were present on the palmprint taken by Day.

CE 2637 proved the palmprint was taken from the barrel of the rifle.

If you'd bothered to read my post Jack, I agree that the print was lifted from the barrel of the rifle and that is why the irregularities of the rifle barrel are on the palmprint in evidence.
The part you would like to ignore is that, according to FBI agent Drain, it was the opinion of the FBI fingerprint experts that it was Day who had put the print on the rifle barrel before it was lifted.
So your so called proof doesn't really stack up to what you imagine it does.

And, as I say in the rest of the lengthy post (that you haven't mentioned so I assume you agree with it), the mystery of why there was no print on the barrel of the rifle when it got to the FBI is solved. The mystery of why there was no sign that the barrel was even processed for prints is solved. The mystery of why Day never took a photo of the print before attempting to lift it is solved. The mystery of why Day never handed the print to the FBI along with the rest of the evidence is solved.

Unless, of course, you have different solutions to these mysteries.

And I'm glad you agree that if Day had indeed lifted Oswald's palmprint from the barrel it would have been considered the most important piece of evidence collected that day.
The mystery as to why this most important piece of evidence was treated as if it were irrelevant is also solved.

Day was the fingerprint expert for the Dallas Police Department.
The FBI thought he'd faked the print.
Do you really think he wouldn't have realised he needed to make it look as though the palmprint actually came from the barrel of the rifle?
Do you really think he wouldn't know how to do it?
Do you have any kind of rational, credible explanation for the "mysteries" surrounding the palmprint.
If so, please share.

[Mitch Todd]

If you'd bothered to read my post Jack, I agree that the print was lifted from the barrel of the rifle and that is why the irregularities of the rifle barrel are on the palmprint in evidence.
The part you would like to ignore is that, according to FBI agent Drain, it was the opinion of the FBI fingerprint experts that it was Day who had put the print on the rifle barrel before it was lifted.
So your so called proof doesn't really stack up to what you imagine it does.

And, as I say in the rest of the lengthy post (that you haven't mentioned so I assume you agree with it), the mystery of why there was no print on the barrel of the rifle when it got to the FBI is solved. The mystery of why there was no sign that the barrel was even processed for prints is solved. The mystery of why Day never took a photo of the print before attempting to lift it is solved. The mystery of why Day never handed the print to the FBI along with the rest of the evidence is solved.

Unless, of course, you have different solutions to these mysteries.

And I'm glad you agree that if Day had indeed lifted Oswald's palmprint from the barrel it would have been considered the most important piece of evidence collected that day.
The mystery as to why this most important piece of evidence was treated as if it were irrelevant is also solved.

Day was the fingerprint expert for the Dallas Police Department.
The FBI thought he'd faked the print.
Do you really think he wouldn't have realised he needed to make it look as though the palmprint actually came from the barrel of the rifle?
Do you really think he wouldn't know how to do it?
Do you have any kind of rational, credible explanation for the "mysteries" surrounding the palmprint.
If so, please share.

IIRC, It was just one FBI agent, Vince Drain, who wasn't part of the fingerprint and ID division. Drain's explanation was that the DPD was "getting a lot of heat by Sunday night." But Drain took possession of the rifle about 11:45PM on the 22nd, so there's no way that Drain's scenario works if the print was taken from the rifle.

[Charles Collins]

If you'd bothered to read my post Jack, I agree that the print was lifted from the barrel of the rifle and that is why the irregularities of the rifle barrel are on the palmprint in evidence.
The part you would like to ignore is that, according to FBI agent Drain, it was the opinion of the FBI fingerprint experts that it was Day who had put the print on the rifle barrel before it was lifted.
So your so called proof doesn't really stack up to what you imagine it does.

And, as I say in the rest of the lengthy post (that you haven't mentioned so I assume you agree with it), the mystery of why there was no print on the barrel of the rifle when it got to the FBI is solved. The mystery of why there was no sign that the barrel was even processed for prints is solved. The mystery of why Day never took a photo of the print before attempting to lift it is solved. The mystery of why Day never handed the print to the FBI along with the rest of the evidence is solved.

Unless, of course, you have different solutions to these mysteries.

And I'm glad you agree that if Day had indeed lifted Oswald's palmprint from the barrel it would have been considered the most important piece of evidence collected that day.
The mystery as to why this most important piece of evidence was treated as if it were irrelevant is also solved.

Day was the fingerprint expert for the Dallas Police Department.
The FBI thought he'd faked the print.
Do you really think he wouldn't have realised he needed to make it look as though the palmprint actually came from the barrel of the rifle?
Do you really think he wouldn't know how to do it?
Do you have any kind of rational, credible explanation for the "mysteries" surrounding the palmprint.
If so, please share.

Do you really think he wouldn't know how to do it?


How about you showing us an example where anyone actually has done it!

[Jack Nessan]

If you'd bothered to read my post Jack, I agree that the print was lifted from the barrel of the rifle and that is why the irregularities of the rifle barrel are on the palmprint in evidence.
The part you would like to ignore is that, according to FBI agent Drain, it was the opinion of the FBI fingerprint experts that it was Day who had put the print on the rifle barrel before it was lifted.
So your so called proof doesn't really stack up to what you imagine it does.

And, as I say in the rest of the lengthy post (that you haven't mentioned so I assume you agree with it), the mystery of why there was no print on the barrel of the rifle when it got to the FBI is solved. The mystery of why there was no sign that the barrel was even processed for prints is solved. The mystery of why Day never took a photo of the print before attempting to lift it is solved. The mystery of why Day never handed the print to the FBI along with the rest of the evidence is solved.

Unless, of course, you have different solutions to these mysteries.

And I'm glad you agree that if Day had indeed lifted Oswald's palmprint from the barrel it would have been considered the most important piece of evidence collected that day.
The mystery as to why this most important piece of evidence was treated as if it were irrelevant is also solved.

Day was the fingerprint expert for the Dallas Police Department.
The FBI thought he'd faked the print.
Do you really think he wouldn't have realised he needed to make it look as though the palmprint actually came from the barrel of the rifle?
Do you really think he wouldn't know how to do it?
Do you have any kind of rational, credible explanation for the "mysteries" surrounding the palmprint.
If so, please share.

Oh, I did read it all and do not agree with any of it. Nothing else matters beyond the authentication of the palmprint. The FBI certainly felt it to be authentic. Only SA Drain expressed any doubts.

Vincent Drain was not an authority or expert in fingerprint analysis. His role in the investigation of the JFK assassination was for an agent stationed in Dallas to be placed on an airplane where he delivered evidence to the FBI crime lab and then waited for the results and then returned the evidence to Dallas.

Is it even possible to artificially place a fingerprint on a curved surface? Fingerprints adhere to a surface, how is it unadhered and then placed onto another surface? On a curved surface which is the most difficult surface to retrieve a fingerprint from in the first place. Obviously not with tape.


“SA Vince Drain, the man who collected the evidence from the DPD on the night of the assassination, was the first person I am aware of who came up with this idea:”
 
"You could take the print off Oswald’s card and put it on the rifle. Something like that happened.”

Is this kind of thinking why SA Drain was left sitting in Washington DC during the investigation?

[John Mytton]

Oh, I did read it all and do not agree with any of it. Nothing else matters beyond the authentication of the palmprint. The FBI certainly felt it to be authentic. Only SA Drain expressed any doubts.

Vincent Drain was not an authority or expert in fingerprint analysis. His role in the investigation of the JFK assassination was for an agent stationed in Dallas to be placed on an airplane where he delivered evidence to the FBI crime lab and then waited for the results and then returned the evidence to Dallas.

Is it even possible to artificially place a fingerprint on a curved surface? Fingerprints adhere to a surface, how is it unadhered and then placed onto another surface? On a curved surface which is the most difficult surface to retrieve a fingerprint from in the first place. Obviously not with tape.


“SA Vince Drain, the man who collected the evidence from the DPD on the night of the assassination, was the first person I am aware of who came up with this idea:”
 
"You could take the print off Oswald’s card and put it on the rifle. Something like that happened.”

Is this kind of thinking why SA Drain was left sitting in Washington DC during the investigation?

Is it even possible to artificially place a fingerprint on a curved surface? Fingerprints adhere to a surface, how is it unadhered and then placed onto another surface? On a curved surface which is the most difficult surface to retrieve a fingerprint from in the first place. Obviously not with tape.

I'd like to know myself, because if it is relatively easy or even possible to place a suspects fingerprints wherever you like then all fingerprint gathering since day 1 has to be suspect and if so, some clever/sleazy/manipulative lawyer would have come forth and disputed his clients prints at some crime scene and this action would forever set a legal precedent and the FBI and crime agencies around the world would be forced to readjust their thinking.
Personally I can't see how to do what Dan suggests but perhaps he has thought this procedure through and can explain his methodology?



JohnM

[John Mytton]

Further to my last post, upon close inspection of the actual dusted print, a couple of things become apparent.

1. The dusting as expected isn't absolutely uniform with a number of random darker patches where there is an accumulation of powder 
2. Between the ridges of Oswald's palm print at certain points have additional amounts of powder which could be caused by simply the placement of the powder into the ridge valleys and/or the random amount of sweat left at certain parts.



The actual hand print of Oswald shows the relative even spread of ink across the entire palm area, which in my opinion would make the random covering of built up powder in various spots and then having to merge the two images with the correct scale into a forensically indistinguishable piece of evidence, a very very difficult process to duplicate.



The FBI took a print of Oswald's rifle in the exact same area as Day's first day dusted print and the FBI confirmed that Day's print of the rifle perfectly matched the exact same random blemishes as their own.



Mr. BELIN. Do you know what Commission Exhibit No. 637 is?
Mr. DAY. This is the trace of palmprint I lifted off of the barrel of the gun after I had removed the wood.
Mr. BELIN. Does it have your name on it or your handwriting?
Mr. DAY. It has the name "J. C. Day," and also "11/22/63" written on it in my writing off the underside gun barrel near the end of foregrip, C-2766.

Conclusion

I'm no fingerprint recovery expert but on the face of it, the difficulty of reproducing a valid non-detectable substitute of an authentically produced print of a finger/palm print on some random surface is going to be practicably impossible!





JohnM