Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?  (Read 6100 times)

Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
    • SPMLaw
Advertisement
I have long maintained that, based on the evidence, the shot through JFK's neck went to Governor Connally's left side, not his far right side. Based on the evidence as to when the shot occurred (between z186 and z202) and the position of JFK and JBC at that time, and the fact that there was no damage indicating that it struck the inside of the car, we cannot eliminate the possibility that it struck Connally in the left thigh. 

A separate shot to the thigh would explain the condition of CE399 and the characteristics of the thigh wound.  According to Dr. Gregory, "...the rather remarkable round nature of the wound in the thigh leads me to believe that it was produced by something like the butt end of an intact missile."

A separate shot to the thigh would explain why the bullet that struck the wrist (after exiting the chest) had all the appearances of a deformed and fragmented missile, ie. it caused a jagged tear in the french cuff, dragged blue suit threads into the wound and left metal fragments deep into the wrist, its fragments struck the windshield and frame and at least one fragment struck the curb near James Tague and deflected up to his cheek.  This second bullet was not CE399.

The first shot striking JFK eliminates the need to imagine any missed shot, particularly a missed first shot which conflicts with:
  • a) the 22+ witnesses who said JFK reacted to the first shot
  • b) the more than a dozen witnesses who put the first shot after z186 (Betzner, Linda Willis and other witnesses along Elm, motorcade witnesses in the VP, VP Security car, and the Cabell car).
  • c) the 40+ shot pattern witnesses as well as Hickey and Greer who all described the last two shots closer together in rapid succession - the second shot as being closer to the head shot than to the first shot.

Everyone seems to disagree that this is a plausible scenario, not because the trajectory can't work (it can and does at z190-z200) but because:

  • 1.  the bullet was traveling too fast and would have caused more damage. This is based on the wound in the thigh being superficial, just reaching the subcutaneous region, not reaching the femur.
  • 2.  if he was struck by two bullets, the bullet to the thigh would have been felt by Connally as it would have struck some seconds before the hit to his back.

The first argument is based on Dr. Shires' and Dr. Gregory being wrong in concluding from the two xray views taken of JBC's left thigh that there was a small metal fragment embedded in the femur.  The HSCA seemed to think this was not a metal fragment in the femur but was an artifact on the xray film.  How it could appear in the same place on two separate xrays was not explained.   If Shires was correct, this bullet made a long oblique strike, butt-first, on the thigh and traveled along the direction of the femur striking the femur leaving a piece of metal in the bone.  A bullet plowing through that much flesh and striking bone on one side explains not only why it was able to stop but also why CE399 is bent only on one side on the butt end.

The second argument is based on our intuition that something like a bullet plowing through our flesh would be felt.  But is this based on evidence?  What does a bullet wound feel like?  Even JBC said he felt no pain from the impact to his back/right armpit and he said he never felt the thigh wound and never noticed it until he woke up on the hospital the next day and saw the bandage. 

With TikTok and YouTube we have the benefit of hearing, first hand, from witnesses who describe what it feels like to be shot.  Almost no one reports feeling pain.  Here are a few of those reports:



Click on this link to a recent TikTok video of a woman who did not feel a bullet that passed through her chest and grazed a rib


JFK Assassination Forum


Offline Mitch Todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 920
Re: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2022, 03:48:42 AM »
I have long maintained that, based on the evidence, the shot through JFK's neck went to Governor Connally's left side, not his far right side. Based on the evidence as to when the shot occurred (between z186 and z202) and the position of JFK and JBC at that time, and the fact that there was no damage indicating that it struck the inside of the car, we cannot eliminate the possibility that it struck Connally in the left thigh. 

A separate shot to the thigh would explain the condition of CE399 and the characteristics of the thigh wound.  According to Dr. Gregory, "...the rather remarkable round nature of the wound in the thigh leads me to believe that it was produced by something like the butt end of an intact missile."

A separate shot to the thigh would explain why the bullet that struck the wrist (after exiting the chest) had all the appearances of a deformed and fragmented missile, ie. it caused a jagged tear in the french cuff, dragged blue suit threads into the wound and left metal fragments deep into the wrist, its fragments struck the windshield and frame and at least one fragment struck the curb near James Tague and deflected up to his cheek.  This second bullet was not CE399.

The first shot striking JFK eliminates the need to imagine any missed shot, particularly a missed first shot which conflicts with:
  • a) the 22+ witnesses who said JFK reacted to the first shot
  • b) the more than a dozen witnesses who put the first shot after z186 (Betzner, Linda Willis and other witnesses along Elm, motorcade witnesses in the VP, VP Security car, and the Cabell car).
  • c) the 40+ shot pattern witnesses as well as Hickey and Greer who all described the last two shots closer together in rapid succession - the second shot as being closer to the head shot than to the first shot.

Everyone seems to disagree that this is a plausible scenario, not because the trajectory can't work (it can and does at z190-z200) but because:

  • 1.  the bullet was traveling too fast and would have caused more damage. This is based on the wound in the thigh being superficial, just reaching the subcutaneous region, not reaching the femur.
  • 2.  if he was struck by two bullets, the bullet to the thigh would have been felt by Connally as it would have struck some seconds before the hit to his back.

The first argument is based on Dr. Shires' and Dr. Gregory being wrong in concluding from the two xray views taken of JBC's left thigh that there was a small metal fragment embedded in the femur.  The HSCA seemed to think this was not a metal fragment in the femur but was an artifact on the xray film.  How it could appear in the same place on two separate xrays was not explained.   If Shires was correct, this bullet made a long oblique strike, butt-first, on the thigh and traveled along the direction of the femur striking the femur leaving a piece of metal in the bone.  A bullet plowing through that much flesh and striking bone on one side explains not only why it was able to stop but also why CE399 is bent only on one side on the butt end.
[...]
First, where does Gregory say that a fragment had penetrated into the femur? It's not in his operative report. In his WC testimony, he describes it as  "a fragment of metal, again microscopic measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by 2 millimeters, lies just beneath the skin, about a half inch on the medial aspect of the thigh." "Just beneath the skin" just doesn't quite generate that embedded-in-the-femur vibe.

Second, the HSCA interviewed Dr Jack Reynolds, the Parkland diagnostic radiologist responsible for examining the x-rays in the days after the shooting. Reynolds also placed the fragment near the surface: "the location of this fragment as just beneath the skin in the region of the subcutaneous fat" and  "the fragment is definitely not imbedded in the femur."  The HSCA also asked Shaw for his opinion. Shaw "could not detect any metal fragments in the chest or in the femur," but he put a fragment "in the subcutaneous tissue in the thigh." They also ran Connally's x-rays past their own independent radiology consultants. One, Dr William Seaman put the fragment just beneath the skin and noted "there is no metal fragment in the femur." The members of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel, after reviewing the x-rays themselves, agreed with Reynolds, Gregory, Seaman, and Shaw. This is one issue where Dr Shires is in a very, very small minority.

The Connally x-rays contain a number of bright "artifacts" within the images that could be mistaken for an metal fragment. the HSCA report suggests that Shires mistook one of these to be an image of the bullet fragment within the femur.

I find it hard to believe that a bullet could strike Connally's femur hard enough to force a metal fragment deep into the bone without generating fractures and other significant damage that would easily show on the x-rays.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 03:51:31 AM by Mitch Todd »

Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
    • SPMLaw
Re: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2022, 05:31:58 PM »
First, where does Gregory say that a fragment had penetrated into the femur? It's not in his operative report. In his WC testimony, he describes it as  "a fragment of metal, again microscopic measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by 2 millimeters, lies just beneath the skin, about a half inch on the medial aspect of the thigh." "Just beneath the skin" just doesn't quite generate that embedded-in-the-femur vibe.
You are right that Gregory did not go quite as far as Shires and did not say that the fragment was in the femur.  But Gregory did say that xrays showed that a fragment was lying close to the femur (6H99):

"Mr. SPECTER. What did the X-rays reveal with respect to the presence of a missile?
Dr. GREGORY. In the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps 1 mm. by 2 mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur, that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh or a wound of that character."

Shires said that the fragment was in the femur (6H106):

"Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm. punctate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound."

In Shires' medical report he says (CE392, 17H535) :

"X-rays of the thigh and leg revealed a bullet fragment which was imbedded in the body of the femur in the distal third."

They were looking at these same xrays, presumably:


Those xrays are certainly consistent with the fragment being embedded in the femur and the condition of CE399 indicates that the butt end struck something hard enough to dent it.  It is consistent with some kind of sudden impact causing the bullet to dent and to shed a fragment.  Dr. Shires explored the bullet tract down to the region of the femur and did not find the fragment in the tissue.

Quote
Second, the HSCA interviewed Dr Jack Reynolds, the Parkland diagnostic radiologist responsible for examining the x-rays in the days after the shooting. Reynolds also placed the fragment near the surface: "the location of this fragment as just beneath the skin in the region of the subcutaneous fat" and  "the fragment is definitely not imbedded in the femur."  The HSCA also asked Shaw for his opinion. Shaw "could not detect any metal fragments in the chest or in the femur," but he put a fragment "in the subcutaneous tissue in the thigh." They also ran Connally's x-rays past their own independent radiology consultants. One, Dr William Seaman put the fragment just beneath the skin and noted "there is no metal fragment in the femur." The members of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel, after reviewing the x-rays themselves, agreed with Reynolds, Gregory, Seaman, and Shaw. This is one issue where Dr Shires is in a very, very small minority.

Quote
The Connally x-rays contain a number of bright "artifacts" within the images that could be mistaken for an metal fragment. the HSCA report suggests that Shires mistook one of these to be an image of the bullet fragment within the femur.
Perhaps you can explain how an "artifact" or defect in the film can occur at different locations on two films and yet at the exact same location relative to the bone. The top yellow line in the above photo is between the same points of the bone.  The lower yellow line is between the two marks that were identified as the fragment.  They are at the same location in the bone. 

Quote
I find it hard to believe that a bullet could strike Connally's femur hard enough to force a metal fragment deep into the bone without generating fractures and other significant damage that would easily show on the x-rays.
No one is saying it is deep into the bone.  The xrays don't show that much information.  They really only show that it is very close to the bone and consistent with it being embedded on the surface of the bone.  But why would it be hard to believe that the butt end of the bullet struck the femur and left a lead fragment? Lead is relatively soft as a metal. The butt end struck something - enough to dent it.

So, am I correct in understanding then that if Shires was correct, you don't disagree that the thigh wound could have been made by a separate bullet?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2022, 05:31:58 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
    • SPMLaw
Re: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2022, 07:58:03 PM »


The Croft photo was taken at Z202 and it shows most of Connally's right shoulder is to the left of Kennedy's midline. This accounts for a bullet going from Kennedy's midline to the Governor's right side. The left side of the Governor does not lie in the trajectory of the bullet.
Croft was taken at z161 (Willis took his photo at z202).  It does not show that Connally's right shoulder is left of Kennedy's midline.   Also it does not show JFK leaning out to the right with his rib cage pressed against the side of the car as you show him.  In the zfilm, his elbow is out on the top of the car but his rib cage is several inches inside.  Also, your position of Connally does not fit his position between z186 and z202.  During this time his torso is turned to the right.  Also you have his knees out to the front, not up like they would be with the seat on the floor. And unless you think that Connally had been castrated, he would not have had his legs together like that.  You also have JBC much farther from the inside of the car door than he is as seen in z193, for example.

But even with the two men in the position you show them, a right to left shot through JFK would not have struck JBC in the right armpit.  At z195, the horizontal angle of a line from the SN to JFK's neck was about 13.5 degrees right to left. That means that over the 24 inches or so between the two men, the bullet would have travelled 24tan(13.5)=5.75 inches farther left. 

Quote
Mason's earwitness tabulation. In which most are "two shot" witnesses who say Kennedy was wounded on the "first" shot are actually talking about the shot they heard before the head shot. Some of these "two shot" witnesses say there could have been a third shot but they could only speak with some certainty about the shots where they saw a reaction in the limousine.
That is your evidence, not the evidence of the witnesses who reported three shot with a shot pattern of 1......2...3.  How can a two shot witness report a 3 shot shot pattern?  Even Max Holland understood that the shot pattern 1.......2...3 is highly significant and that this evidence is reliable.

Quote
Mason, I believe, says all the shots were fired by Oswald from the Sniper's Nest window. But Kennedy was obscured from view during the Z190s. An assassin at the SN window acquiring the target as he emerges from the foliage would need a second or so to lock onto the target and take a shot in the Z220s. Well, wouldn't you know it, both Kennedy and Connally have simultaneous reactions (I believe, to being wounded by the same bullet) in the Z220s.
JFK was fully visible to the SN when he was between the lamppost and the Thornton sign. That is between z190 and z200. There are many witnesses who said that the first shot occurred when he was in that position. 

The FBI reconstruction done in May 1964 is not only inconsistent with the SS film made in December 1963, it is apparent that they did the placements by survey rather than matching Zapruder frames.  As an example of how inaccurate surveying was, Itek did a report in 1967 and, using survey methods, tried to determine whether Betzner's photo was taken before or after Willis #5 (LIFE-ITEK KENNEDY ASSASSINATION FILM ANALYSIS, November 20, 1967, p. 6).  They concluded as follows:

  • The location of the Presidential limousine in the resected Betzner picture and in the resected Willis picture showed that Betzner exposed first and Willis exposed when the car was approximately 5 feet farther along Elm street. Assuming an approximate average vehicle speed of 16.4 feet per second, this would correspond to 0.3 second. The sequencing was verified by location of the car with respect to lane lines and with respect to a tree shadow (tree located approximately 90 feet from the corner of Houston and Elm Streets) barely discernible in the foreground of both pictures.

Itek, apparently, didn't realize that there was a much more accurate way to determine the relative timing of those photos, using Zapruder's camera to align the photographer with the Secret Service men and Zapruder.  So Itek determined that the frames were taken about .3 of a second apart (5.5 zframes) when, in fact, they were .875 seconds or 16 frames apart.  So much for the FBI's survey based conclusion that JFK had not become fully visible to the SN by frame z210.
 

Offline Jake Maxwell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 388
Re: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2022, 09:02:59 PM »
Did Connally ever say how many bullets he thought hit him?
Did Connally ever watch Z. or Nix and give thoughts about where and when he thought he was shot?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2022, 09:02:59 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
    • SPMLaw
Re: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2022, 10:15:05 PM »
Did Connally ever say how many bullets he thought hit him?
Did Connally ever watch Z. or Nix and give thoughts about where and when he thought he was shot?
The point is that he didn't know he was hit in the thigh.  He never felt it.  The usual response to that is "well, he didn't notice it because he was hit in the chest - if he had been hit in the thigh 4 seconds earlier, he would have felt it."  But if you watch the videos I posted you will see that bullets are often not felt. Being shot is usually not painful.  He felt the impact in the back from the second shot but he felt no pain until he got out of the car at Parkland, likely because his lung then collapsed.

The Connallys watched the Zfilm and they both opined that he looked like he was hit at z235 or so.  Not being able to start and stop the film frame by frame, they were left to look at prints of the frames. 

But their opinions were not questioned. They were not asked key questions like: JBC:"where do you turn around to see JFK before you are hit?" or "how long did you wait after being hit before you fell back onto Nellie?" or NC: "how was your husband turned when the second shot sounded"? or "if you say you never looked back after the second shot, why do you say the second shot occurred at z235 when you are looking back for 2 seconds after that (but not before)?". 

« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 10:23:02 PM by Andrew Mason »

Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
    • SPMLaw
Re: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2022, 08:39:34 PM »
My analysis of the Croft photo shows Connally's much of right shoulder was to the left of Kennedy's midline. See in the photo how much larger Jackie's head is than Kennedy's, and that Connally's head is a little bigger than JFK? That's because they're closer in space to Croft than is the President. The model reflects the position of Kennedy and Connally in terms of where their heads are. The head positions in the model also relate perfectly to where their heads are recorded in the Altgens photo on Houston.


What I would like to see is how your images look from the vantage point of Zapruder.  One sees in the Zfilm that the heads of JFK and Roy Kellerman seem to align in a straight line parallel to the car side and JBC's is slightly inside that line (see zframe 189 as well as 193, both of which are reasonably clear).

Also, you have JFK's elbow quite far forward which seems unnatural. I don't see the upper arm pointing that much forward in the zfilm.  The elbow is farther back. The way you have it, his elbow is about the same elevation as his right shoulder.  The shoulder is much higher as seen in z193.  This necessarily puts the side of JFK's torso farther inside than you have him.

You also seem to have JBC's jump seat quite far to the left.  What is the distance you are using between the edge of the jump seat and the right inside door panel?
Quote
My model for Z195 shows Connally inboard of Kennedy. Do you have any of your own 3D work of comparable quality?
You do great 3D images, Jerry.  I wish I had the time to learn how to do it as well as you do.

Quote
You're not referring to your "FAIL" use of muddy frames from the 1963 SS reenactment film? They were so muddy, you thought the car was a convertible five-feet shorter than the model seen in the SS film.
It doesn't matter what the length of the car is.  What matters is where JFK is positioned.

Offline Mitch Todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 920
Re: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2022, 06:16:00 AM »
You are right that Gregory did not go quite as far as Shires and did not say that the fragment was in the femur.  But Gregory did say that xrays showed that a fragment was lying close to the femur (6H99):

"Mr. SPECTER. What did the X-rays reveal with respect to the presence of a missile?
Dr. GREGORY. In the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps 1 mm. by 2 mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur, that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh or a wound of that character."
Shires said that the fragment was in the femur (6H106):

"Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm. punctate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound."

In Shires' medical report he says (CE392, 17H535) :

"X-rays of the thigh and leg revealed a bullet fragment which was imbedded in the body of the femur in the distal third."

They were looking at these same xrays, presumably:


Those xrays are certainly consistent with the fragment being embedded in the femur and the condition of CE399 indicates that the butt end struck something hard enough to dent it.  It is consistent with some kind of sudden impact causing the bullet to dent and to shed a fragment.  Dr. Shires explored the bullet tract down to the region of the femur and did not find the fragment in the tissue.
Perhaps you can explain how an "artifact" or defect in the film can occur at different locations on two films and yet at the exact same location relative to the bone. The top yellow line in the above photo is between the same points of the bone.  The lower yellow line is between the two marks that were identified as the fragment.  They are at the same location in the bone. 
No one is saying it is deep into the bone.  The xrays don't show that much information.  They really only show that it is very close to the bone and consistent with it being embedded on the surface of the bone.  But why would it be hard to believe that the butt end of the bullet struck the femur and left a lead fragment? Lead is relatively soft as a metal. The butt end struck something - enough to dent it.

So, am I correct in understanding then that if Shires was correct, you don't disagree that the thigh wound could have been made by a separate bullet?
If pigs could fly, bacon would be an Olympic shooting sport. A tasty, tasty, Olympic shooting sport.

What it boils down to is, Shires is standing on one side of the road. The other side of the road is occupied by every other physician who has examined the x-rays. I suspect that Shires is lonely out there all by himself, and it's commendably kind of you to go and hang out with him. While you two are out there, If you have time, we need a quick poll of the local chicken population as to motivation. 

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The thigh wound: How many bullets struck Governor Connally?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2022, 06:16:00 AM »