Was the Stemmons Freeway sign removed?

[Mitch Todd]

This post reflects just some of the witnesses that saw the limousine either nearly stop or stop during the shooting sequence.

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The Warren Commission (WC) said the Presidential limousine did not come to a stop or slow to a near stop during the shooting of President John F. Kennedy (JFK). They used the testimony of the driver of the limousine Secret Service (SS) Agent William Greer for the basis of this claim. This post will look at this issue in greater detail as many witnesses said the limousine either stopped or came to a near stop during the shooting sequence.

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The WC said the limo slowed down about the time of Z313, though they did deny it stopped or slowed significantly. Alavarez used a pair of linear regression analyses and found that it slowed from 12mph to 8mph centered about frame 300, though his linear regressions probably have quite a bit of uncertainty. The ANT Davison panoramic-background version of the Z-film shows the limo slowing down enough that I can see that someone might think the limo stopped.

HOWEVER

That's not what Storing is talking about. He's talking about a complete and extended stop West of the triple overpass.

[Royell Storing]

You and what army? Seriously, exactly how many people here think that the limousine stopped West of the triple overpass?

    Again, You are also Late to this party. This very topic has been discussed at length previously. Do some research and then get back to me. Right now you are well behind the curve. I do Not mind helping you catch up, but you also need to make an effort on your own part.

[Royell Storing]

I think the last thing that the SS wanted to be seen doing was stopping for a few minutes and having a conference while Kennedy was bleeding out in the back seat.
They were all connected by radio and I'm pretty sure in the following image that at least one of the 3 motorcyclists in front knew where Parkland was.



JohnM

     When McIntire took that photo Trask claimed in "Pictures Of The Pain" the DPD motorcycle cops did Not know. Also, when the pic was taken Officer Chaney had yet to inform Chief Curry/Lead Car as to the condition of the JFK.

[Mitch Todd]

    Again, You are also Late to this party. This very topic has been discussed at length previously. Do some research and then get back to me. Right now you are well behind the curve. I do Not mind helping you catch up, but you also need to make an effort on your own part.

You continue on a pattern of claiming things that simply do not appear in the the evidence. When confronted with the lack of support for your contention, you invariably fall back to this nebulous refrain that I am somehow behind in the evidence. Then you'll point to some film or set of testimony that turns out not to prove what you claim, and is liable to disprove it. You respond to the bad news by appealing to some other bit of evidence that likewise either fails to help you or contradicts your contentions. Then you call in the cavalry, and try to ride your high horse. Except it's a hobby horse, and not that high, anyway. How can you stand being such a vacuous nebulosity out here?

[John Mytton]

     When McIntire took that photo Trask claimed in "Pictures Of The Pain" the DPD motorcycle cops did Not know. Also, when the pic was taken Officer Chaney had yet to inform Chief Curry/Lead Car as to the condition of the JFK.

Have we confirmed that the police bike that talked to Curry was actually Chaney because Curry didn't seem sure and I have yet to be sure where 2 of the 5 following lead bikes ended up?



Hargis parked his bike and says that Chaney accelerated up to the front which must be the bike in the gif below.

Mr. HARGIS - Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"
Mr. STERN - Someone inside--
Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscaharg.htm

Slightly before the McIntire photo was taken the Presidential Limo was passing Curry's car at a rate of knots and a casual glance in that direction would indicate that something was drastically wrong and we know that Curry heard the shots.



Greer's official SS report reinforces all that we have been saying, that Kellerman was on the radio to the lead car and if the motorcycle police weren't already aware of what happened, Greer made sure of it.

We rushed up to the police escort and I called to the motorcycle police, Hospital. Mr. Kellerman was calling to the lead automobile on the radio to get to the nearest hospital fast. I drove as fast as I could to the hospital and helped to get the President into the emergency room.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sa-greer.htm

Another observation is that I'm pretty sure that the motorbike on our left at the mouth of the tunnel is stationary because if you look at the gif above you can see the white helmet of this motorbike cop but I can't explain why the bike panniers aren't as visible, perhaps the cops helmets were made of reflective material? Or another take could be that this bike is Chaney and the other Martin?



JohnM

[Royell Storing]

You continue on a pattern of claiming things that simply do not appear in the the evidence. When confronted with the lack of support for your contention, you invariably fall back to this nebulous refrain that I am somehow behind in the evidence. Then you'll point to some film or set of testimony that turns out not to prove what you claim, and is liable to disprove it. You respond to the bad news by appealing to some other bit of evidence that likewise either fails to help you or contradicts your contentions. Then you call in the cavalry, and try to ride your high horse. Except it's a hobby horse, and not that high, anyway. How can you stand being such a vacuous nebulosity out here?

         I gave you Trask "Pictures Of The Pain" and Chaney not yet having conferred with Chief Curry/Lead Car. You on the other hand have proffered absolutely No evidence and are unfamiliar with the details of the topic in addition to previous discussions on this Forum surrounding it. Belly up to the bar.

[Royell Storing]

Have we confirmed that the police bike that talked to Curry was actually Chaney because Curry didn't seem sure and I have yet to be sure where 2 of the 5 following lead bikes ended up?



Hargis parked his bike and says that Chaney accelerated up to the front which must be the bike in the gif below.

Mr. HARGIS - Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"
Mr. STERN - Someone inside--
Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscaharg.htm

Slightly before the McIntire photo was taken the Presidential Limo was passing Curry's car at a rate of knots and a casual glance in that direction would indicate that something was drastically wrong and we know that Curry heard the shots.



Greer's official SS report reinforces all that we have been saying, that Kellerman was on the radio to the lead car and if the motorcycle police weren't already aware of what happened, Greer made sure of it.

We rushed up to the police escort and I called to the motorcycle police, Hospital. Mr. Kellerman was calling to the lead automobile on the radio to get to the nearest hospital fast. I drove as fast as I could to the hospital and helped to get the President into the emergency room.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sa-greer.htm

Another observation is that I'm pretty sure that the motorbike on our left at the mouth of the tunnel is stationary because if you look at the gif above you can see the white helmet of this motorbike cop but I can't explain why the bike panniers aren't as visible, perhaps the cops helmets were made of reflective material? Or another take could be that this bike is Chaney and the other Martin?



JohnM

     Officer Chaney has a You Tube clip that was filmed on 11/22/63. He details talking to Curry. The WC testimony of Curry and the individuals inside the Lead Car verify this happened and that it was Chaney. With regard to SA Greer, he's tapping the brakes, he made No evasive driving moves, he's accelerating passed the Lead Car and heading head long into a possible ambush. He panicked when under fire. All of this taints his testimony. He is going to cover his arse.
      I believe the JFK Limo did STOP and that during this Stop that Chaney caught up to the Stopped Lead Car and conversed with Curry. This would mean the Stop lasted for somewhere around 30 seconds to 1 Minute. To be accurate, remember that in his WC Testimony Officer Brown made No Mention of seeing the JFK Limo Stop. The Officer Brown eyewitness tale of a JFK Limo stop is Not Testimony. It is a phone conversation with Gary Mack.
      The absent 2 Lead Bikes you asked about broke off as planned when the motorcade reached Main/Houston. They sped up ahead and were then involved in making sure that the Stemmons Fwy was clear for the oncoming POTUS/Motorcade.

[Mitch Todd]

Officer Earle Brown (stationed on the T&R RR Overpass) said the limousine stopped on the access ramp for about 30 seconds, while the Curry car pulled up to it.



Officer James W. Courson was a motorcycle policeman assigned to the middle of the motorcade. He told Larry Snead ("No More Silence" 1998 ( Google Books )) that he was "stopped" at Main and Houston when he heard the shots. He was at the top of Elm and saw Mrs. Kennedy on the trunk. He caught up to the limousine as "they entered the Stemmons Freeway ramp." He was one of two rear escorts to Parkland.

The McIntire photo suggests Courson is wrong about the entrance to the ramp being where he caught up to the limousine. I think Courson caught up with the limousine on the ramp itself not far from the entry onto Stemmons. To cover that distance and catch up to the limousine would seem to mean the limousine had slowed considerably or, as Officer Brown claimed, momentarily stopped.

The only witness for a stop is Brown, who reported this in 1980 but not in 1964. From the films of the motorcade leaving Dealey Plaza, the Queen Mary and the VP car both took off after the limo. There were four guys in the lead car, six in the limo, seven in the Queen Mary,  and seven more in the VP car, with a couple of motorcycle officers caught up with them. Of those, the only one who ever said anything close to describing stoppage on the Stemmons ramp is Curry, who had to be told by Gary Mack that the limo stopped. Even then, Curry never said it stopped. Put it all together, and it doesn't add up to a stop.

I'd bet the limo slowed down just before it hit that blind right hand curve on the ramp. Trying that at speed in a four ton automobile rolling around on four  skinny bias-ply tires is one of those "watch this" sort of stunts. I can see Greer letting off the gas negotiating it, and a 7800lb car isn't going to accelerate all that well once it's around the bend. I can't see them stopping for any reason. After all, they had radio.