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Author Topic: In 54 years has it ever been proven that CE399 is the bullet found at Parkland?  (Read 32841 times)

Offline Allan Fritzke

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Originally CTers question if CE399 was found by the stretcher which held Connally.

Perhaps they initially just assumed that the bullet Tomlinson found was indeed the one now in evidence as CE399, and only after more information came to light did they start to wonder if that assumption was justified.


Now they question if CE399 was found at Parkland.

Well, was it?

Was the bullet found by Tomlinson the same one that's now in evidence as CE399?

Here is/was the evidence to support my rhetorical NO!!!!!!   Tomlinson himself said it wasn't the same bullet he found when asked about it.    The real question to ask is which investigator (Johnsen?, a veteran first responder?) failed to initial the evidence or collaborate the bullet put into the evidence locker and why not!   He should have been fired because he knows better!   The first investigator needed to be asked if he initialed some bullet or if it he mishandled it by not signing it and now denies that CE399 was the same bullet?   No one questions!!     

If he said he initialed it, the bullet was planted - end of story.  Obviously, the seeds of doubt need to remain so that the planted evidence can be used to furnish the SBT!

You never looked at my REPLY #2 to closely and want to form a circular argument and just plain ignored it.   I have clearly stated that no one signed in authority or initialed the evidence and no one wants to admit that the bullet in the evidence locker is the one they saw or hand carried!   "We have 100% denial by the four men who examined the bullet that Tomlinson found, that it was CE399 ".    Pretty simple.   No one wants to say that the bullet at the evidence locker came from PH!  Throw that bullet out.  It could have came from a cotton box where it was gathered from!
 
Those people that gather the evidence surely know that you just can't "ADD" evidence at will to evidence locker.   This is not the first time these shenanigans have taken place in the court system.    Unfortunately prosecutors have sometimes used police to help them plant evidence when they both have already formed an opinion that someone is guilty and they just need a little bit more to make it stick.   That is what happens when you have a "KANGAROO" court.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 05:44:25 PM by Allan Fritzke »

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Offline Ross Lidell

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Yes, that's pretty simple.  And it's a false dichotomy.  It could be neither.

It's pretty obvious that all of this scrambling to shift the burden of proof is a tacit admission that nobody can demonstrate that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland Hospital.

What's so great about forming a conclusion without the evidence to support one?  Is that supposed to be rational?

Yes, that's pretty simple.  And it's a false dichotomy.  It could be neither.

What is the "neither"?

What's so great about forming a conclusion without the evidence to support one?  Is that supposed to be rational?

You're confusing "evidence" with "disputing evidence".

Based on the available facts there are two options.

-- CE399 fell out of the superficial wound in Governor Connally's thigh having been fired in C2766 at Dealey Plaza (12:30 pm CST).

OR

CE399 was placed on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital by a person sometime after 12:30 CST. The person was associated with plotters who fired a bullet in C2766 at some earlier time at a location other than Dealey Plaza.

Which is it John?

Offline Ross Lidell

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Where in all of this do I find confirmation (of any kind) that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland Hospital?

Btw.. I like your speculation, but John is right when he says there are more than the 3 options you have listed? and, no, I am not going to pick one for the simple reason that what I believe is insignificant to the discussion if it can not be backed up by some sort of evidence. This thread isn't about me. It's about the evidentiary value of the bullet now in evidence as CE399.

Name options 4, 5 and 6.

... no, I am not going to pick one for the simple reason that what I believe is insignificant to the discussion if it can not be backed up by some sort of evidence.

That's an admission that you have nothing.  :D

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Offline Ross Lidell

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It's pretty simple: Either CE399 came from Dealey Plaza to Parkland Hospital with Governor Connally... or it is a bullet planted by conspirators who plotted to kill President Kennedy. Which shall it be "great prevaricator"?

Nope, it's only "pretty simple" in your world. There are other options

Just as I figured. A contrarian not interested enough (or courageous enough) to offer an opinion as to "what" happened.

Why do you want me to speculate about what really happened, when I am merely asking you to provide any kind of evidence that that bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland. You can grandstand all you want, but I have still to see even the beginning of answer to my question. Why is that?

It's rather common on this board: When asked for a conclusion the usually opinionated man said, "Gee I dunno [sic]".


Stop whining and provide the evidence that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 is in fact the same bullet Tomlinson found! Can you?

Nope, it's only "pretty simple" in your world. There are other options.

Name the options.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Here is/was the evidence to support my rhetorical NO!!!!!!   Tomlinson himself said it wasn't the same bullet he found when asked about it.    The real question to ask is which investigator (Johnsen?, a veteran first responder?) failed to initial the evidence or collaborate the bullet put into the evidence locker and why not!   He should have been fired because he knows better!   The first investigator needed to be asked if he initialed some bullet or if it he mishandled it by not signing it and now denies that CE399 was the same bullet?   No one questions!!     

If he said he initialed it, the bullet was planted - end of story.  Obviously, the seeds of doubt need to remain so that the planted evidence can be used to furnish the SBT!

You never looked at my REPLY #2 to closely and want to form a circular argument and just plain ignored it.  I have clearly stated that no one signed in authority or initialed the evidence and no one wants to admit that the bullet in the evidence locker is the one they saw or hand carried!   "We have 100% denial by the four men who examined the bullet that Tomlinson found, that it was CE399 ".    Pretty simple.   No one wants to say that the bullet at the evidence locker came from PH!  Throw that bullet out.  It could have came from a cotton box where it was gathered from!
 
Those people that gather the evidence surely know that you just can't "ADD" evidence at will to evidence locker.   This is not the first time these shenanigans have taken place in the court system.    Unfortunately prosecutors have sometimes used police to help them plant evidence when they both have already formed an opinion that someone is guilty and they just need a little bit more to make it stick.   That is what happens when you have a "KANGAROO" court.

Tomlinson himself said it wasn't the same bullet he found when asked about it.

When did Tomlinson say this and to whom?

I think you are confusing Tomlinson with Wright. The latter told Josiah Thompson in 1966 that the bullet he received from Tomlinson had a pointed tip and later showed Thompson a similar bullet of photo of which Tompson published in his book "Six seconds in Dallas". Wright also rejected CE399 (he was shown a photograph) as the bullet he had seen.

The real question to ask is which investigator (Johnsen?, a veteran first responder?) failed to initial the evidence or collaborate the bullet put into the evidence locker and why not! 

That's a good question, especially as Parkland Hospital had special evidence envelopes available (one was used for bullet fragments taken from Connally during his operation).

You never looked at my REPLY #2 to closely and want to form a circular argument and just plain ignored it. 

I'm not sure what you are on about as there is no circular argument on my part anywhere. I did in fact read your reply and noted that your arguments (or rather those of the person who wrote the article) were known to me. There was nothing there that I was not already aware of. What it didn't do is answer the question I asked, which is why I didn't reply to it as I wanted to stay on topic.

I have clearly stated that no one signed in authority or initialed the evidence and no one wants to admit that the bullet in the evidence locker is the one they saw or hand carried!   "We have 100% denial by the four men who examined the bullet that Tomlinson found, that it was CE399 ".  Pretty simple.   No one wants to say that the bullet at the evidence locker came from PH!  Throw that bullet out.  It could have came from a cotton box where it was gathered from!


I agree, but what dealing with LNs it's not so simple. Once you discuss the chain of custody they will go the "at court it would have been admitted" route and then you end up with a completely different discussion about the evidentiary value of the chain of custody, which is where I didn't and don't want to go. My position is a simple one; the WC and the LNs claim the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was found at Parkland Hospital. I merely want them to show me that CE399 ever was at Parkland. That's what this thread is about.


 

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Offline Martin Weidmann

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Yes, that's pretty simple.  And it's a false dichotomy.  It could be neither.

What is the "neither"?

What's so great about forming a conclusion without the evidence to support one?  Is that supposed to be rational?

You're confusing "evidence" with "disputing evidence".

Based on the available facts there are two options.

-- CE399 fell out of the superficial wound in Governor Connally's thigh having been fired in C2766 at Dealey Plaza (12:30 pm CST).

OR

CE399 was placed on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital by a person sometime after 12:30 CST. The person was associated with plotters who fired a bullet in C2766 at some earlier time at a location other than Dealey Plaza.

Which is it John?

Based on the available facts there are two options.

-- CE399 fell out of the superficial wound in Governor Connally's thigh having been fired in C2766 at Dealey Plaza (12:30 pm CST).

OR

CE399 was placed on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital by a person sometime after 12:30 CST. The person was associated with plotters who fired a bullet in C2766 at some earlier time at a location other than Dealey Plaza.


Nope... there is another option which you have been ignoring all along. Tomlinson may well have found a completely unrelated bullet (which Wright said had a pointed tip) which, as it turned out, came in very handy. The evidentairy life of the bullet now in evidence as CE399 began in Washington when Secret Service chief Rowely gave a bullet to FBI agent Elmer Todd. Was it the bullet Tomlinson and Wright gave to Johnsen or was it a substitute matching the CE2766 rifle?

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Name options 4, 5 and 6.

... no, I am not going to pick one for the simple reason that what I believe is insignificant to the discussion if it can not be backed up by some sort of evidence.

That's an admission that you have nothing.  :D

What substance are you on? In this thread I am asking a question, not making a claim I need to back up.

You are the one who has nothing, since so far you have failed completely to show that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland Hospital.


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Nope, it's only "pretty simple" in your world. There are other options.

Name the options.

Stop whining and trying to divert the discussion to other topics. Instead provide the evidence that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 is in fact the same bullet Tomlinson found! Can you?



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