WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA

[Andrew Mason]

This just appears weird to me. If the first bullet hit JFK in the back and the second bullet hit JBC in the chest and wrist then the third bullet hit JFK in the head. That's three bullets! Consider this too. JBC's had his back facing Nellie between frames 250 and z278. That's the only time JBC could have received a hypothetical shot from left of the vehicle to his back without hitting Nellie. Are you saying there were shots from different directions?

JBC's torso was twisted. His hips were turned slightly; his shoulders were turned about 75 degrees. So determining where his back was facing you have to specify what part of his back you are speaking about. He was struck in the right armpit  at the level of the 5th rib. That part of his back was not facing Nellie. More important, it was exposed because his right arm was elevated as he was holding his stetson up in front of his chest.  It is apparent that this part of his body was exposed to a shot from the rear from z260 to z278.

[Andrew Mason]

No, Rob thinks Sen Russell's statement somehow proves there is three shots and a second shooter------ there is evidence of two shots, prove there was three. Rob obviously can't, instead of insinuating there was three shots why don't you prove there was three shots? If there was in fact three shots it should be evident and easily shown.

What is it about 132 witnesses who reported hearing 3 distinct shots that you find hard to see?

No matter how many variations of this same theory evolve there is still some basic problems. Apparently the shot has now moved to Z250 from Z270 and it is now a shot that hit him in the back instead of just the leg?

 It appears you have abandoned the two shots closer together at the end to an even shot spacing? At least the cycle time of the carcano registered and you are trying to incorporate it in this new variation.

I am not sure why you are confused. The first shot was after z186, and the last was just before z313, a difference of 127 frames. So the midpoint between 1 & 3 was z250. But witnesses did not describe evenly spaced shots They described a second shot noticeably closer to 3 than to 1. So it was after z250. How much after? Well look at the clues in zfilm. JFK's hair flies up from z273 to z276. George Hickey said he was watching the President at the time of the second shot. He said JFK's hair on the right side flew up at the time he heard the second shot but he was not hit by it. If that was caused by the bullet just missing his head, it must have struck JBC on the right side. There are a number of other clues that indicate the second shot was between z272-273.

1) After viewing the Zapuder Film, Connally actually states he felt he was wounded by Z235.

That's true. But, interestingly, no one asked him where he turned around to see JFK. Nellie thought he was hit about the same time. But no one asked her to explain how that could be possible if she never looked back after the second shot, as she testified. She looks back from z255 to z270.

2) Where is the bullet that hit JFK but supposedly missed JBC

CE399.

3) Connally cries out after being wounded and Jackie always felt if her attention had not been diverted from JFK by JBC screaming she would have pulled JFK over on her lap. Remember JBC cries out after being wounded and both Nelly and Jackie reference that as having been after the first shot. Nelly even specifically states before the second.
4) If you are going to quote the witnesses at least state when they made there statements and how they changed over time. This appears to be the same seriously flawed logic that is always presented.
5) A large number of the eyewitnesses state there was two shots and where the first shot occurred and JFK reacts to it. Maybe stop regurgitating McAdam's witness compilation it is basically flawed, using latter statements not the earliest and heavily weighted to earwitnesses and not eyewitnesses.
6) The witness compilation you are quoting refers to the last two shots as being very close, "almost as one", or statements similar to this. Speer's analysis of them was that they were really talking about one shot.
7) There is still the same problem of few witnesses describe the assassination as taking place the way you are describing. Specifically the Zapruder Film does not.

If witnesses heard a 1.......2...3 pattern from various locations, many far away from the bullet path, the sounds must have been from three shots.  There is no way hat a single shot can produce two distinct sounds for that many witnesses. Besides many described the sounds as being spaced about 2:1.  That cannot be produced by only two shots.

[Andrew Mason]

You using them as if they were digital recorders.

Humans are digital recorders. They can use their fingers to count: 1,2,3.  Pretty simple.   Are you now suggesting there were not three shots?

Just that Hickey is turned around in the Altgens photo, giving him exactly one second to turn around and locate the President by Z273. Even if he did turn back around, he can't see to the right-front of the President's head in the Z270s.

    "The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed
     because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward
     and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head."
Hickey could just-as-well be describing the President's forward lurch Z228ff.

No. That is not correct. Read what he said. Hickey said he turned forward and was looking at the president when the last two shots were fired. He was looking backward still in Altgens 6 taken at z256. So, by Hickey's evidence as well as Altgens, that is before the last two shots.

Hickey's look backward occurred not immediately after the first shot, as he claimed, but after the second shot. He certainly is describing a first shot that struck nothing. If there was a first shot late-Z190s-to-Z200s (per your theory), then Hickey is hearing it as he looks in the direction of the President. Hickey discredits your theory on that account. If there was a first (missed) shot in the late-Z150s (as some claim), then Hickey is at least not looking towards the President when he hears it. He's not looking rearward but in the later written reconstruction he could have phrased it that way.

Again, you are changing what he said. Read his evidence again.

Thanks. But when it comes to you advocating your pet theory, we've seen enough of your ability to process a "clue".
The Willis-06 photo (Z202) shows Nellie turned around enough to see the President. She has stated (more often then not) that she turned to see the President before he raised up his hands.

You are avoiding the point. It is not about where she looks back. She said she looked back many times. It is about where she did not look back. She said she did not look back after the second shot. So if she is looking back it is before the second shot, according to her testimony.

[Jack Nessan]

Mason is back for his Christmas beating.

Mason's own Fun-House-Mirror depiction of the Connally torso shot.


You using them as if they were digital recorders. Some have utilized the witness record to claim the limousine had stopped and that the wound seen at Parkland was at the rear of the skull. Justice-by-Democracy leads to things like lynchings and war declarations. You're like an Electoral Collage.
Your moonbat-crazy theory has been confusing people for almost two decades. Any followers outside your family?
Your math is certainly working something out with a pencil.



And not just there.


Just that Hickey is turned around in the Altgens photo, giving him exactly one second to turn around and locate the President by Z273. Even if he did turn back around, he can't see to the right-front of the President's head in the Z270s.

    "The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed
     because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward
     and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head."

Hickey could just-as-well be describing the President's forward lurch Z228ff.


Hickey's look backward occurred not immediately after the first shot, as he claimed, but after the second shot. He certainly is describing a first shot that struck nothing. If there was a first shot late-Z190s-to-Z200s (per your theory), then Hickey is hearing it as he looks in the direction of the President. Hickey discredits your theory on that account. If there was a first (missed) shot in the late-Z150s (as some claim), then Hickey is at least not looking towards the President when he hears it. He's not looking rearward but in the later written reconstruction he could have phrased it that way.
Thanks. But when it comes to you advocating your pet theory, we've seen enough of your ability to process a "clue".
The Willis-06 photo (Z202) shows Nellie turned around enough to see the President. She has stated (more often then not) that she turned to see the President before he raised up his hands.


After her husband has been shot (as he emerges from behind the sign), she later looks back-and-forth twice as if to see if the Secret Service agents are going to do something.



Nellie is facing more away from Kennedy when she comes out of her Z255-270 turn than when she begins.
The missile wouldn't slow enough passing through the President's throat to be just gently stopped by the soft tissue in Connally's thigh. And what squeezed the bullet along its long axis?

The annual Christmas Beating, that is good, I did not know it was an anual event. Next year I will look forward to it. I had no idea this has gone on for so long. It does seem somewhat like a trip down memory lane. Afterwards he goes off and retools and then comes back with all the new information incorporated into the old theory. If memory serves in the past it was called Shot Pattern Analysis. I noticed there are some new wrinkles like the Z250 shot. It used to be a shot at Z270 or later. The 132 witnesses of doom are still somewhat the same.
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Interesting is Hickey like Kinney claims to have seen the hair fly forward due to the bullets impact. They are the only two to make that distinction and what is interesting is they were also room mates.

SA Hickey 11/22/63
"The president was slumped to the left in the car and I observed him come up. I heard what appeared to be two shots and it seemed that the right side of his head was hit and his hair flew forward."

Samuel A. Kinney
Special Agent

",.... at the President and it appeared that he had been shot because he slumped to the left. Immediately he sat up again.* At this time the second shot was fired and I observed hair flying from the right side of his head"

Everything happened so quickly they were seeking confirmation of what they saw and heard. Similar was Templin and Brandt. One ran away from the curb and the other stayed there. After the shooting the first question asked between them was what how many shots did you hear? One said three the other said two.

[Jack Nessan]

What is it about 132 witnesses who reported hearing 3 distinct shots that you find hard to see?
 I am not sure why you are confused. The first shot was after z186, and the last was just before z313, a difference of 127 frames. So the midpoint between 1 & 3 was z250. But witnesses did not describe evenly spaced shots They described a second shot noticeably closer to 3 than to 1. So it was after z250. How much after? Well look at the clues in zfilm. JFK's hair flies up from z273 to z276. George Hickey said he was watching the President at the time of the second shot. He said JFK's hair on the right side flew up at the time he heard the second shot but he was not hit by it. If that was caused by the bullet just missing his head, it must have struck JBC on the right side. There are a number of other clues that indicate the second shot was between z272-273.
That's true. But, interestingly, no one asked him where he turned around to see JFK. Nellie thought he was hit about the same time. But no one asked her to explain how that could be possible if she never looked back after the second shot, as she testified. She looks back from z255 to z270. CE399.If witnesses heard a 1.......2...3 pattern from various locations, many far away from the bullet path, the sounds must have been from three shots.  There is no way hat a single shot can produce two distinct sounds for that many witnesses. Besides many described the sounds as being spaced about 2:1.  That cannot be produced by only two shots.

You misquoted Hickey. His first statement was different in key aspects. Kinney reiterated what Hickey stated that a bullet impacted JFK's head and his hair flew forward.

SA George W. Hickey

11/22/63
"The president was slumped to the left in the car and I observed him come up. I heard what appeared to be two shots and it seemed that the right side of his head was hit and his hair flew forward."

Samuel A. Kinney
Special Agent

,.... at the President and it appeared that he had been shot because he slumped to the left. Immediately he sat up again.* At this time the second shot was fired and I observed hair flying from the right side of his head

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JBC, Nelly, and Jackie all stated the same thing about when JBC was struck with the bullet. Nelly through spokesman Julian Read stated she did not know about a third shot.

Altgens in his first press news bulletin read live on the air for NBC minutes after the assassination stated there was there was only two shots.

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The HSCA explained the timing of the echoes to the original shot. Maybe you were unaware of this.
HSCA Accoustical analysis

All observers rated the rifle shots as very very loud, and they were unable to understand how they could have been described as a firecracker or backfire. Only the pistol, which was subsonic, produced a moderate loudness.

HSCA Sound Analysis:
We requested three motorcycles to be running during the test to provide some background noise that would approximate the original listening conditions in Dealey Plaza. Unfortunately, these newer motorcycles were not very noisy, but the shots were so loud that any reasonable level of background noise would have been low in comparison with the shots themselves. Our listening conditions were, therefore, essentially representative of those at the time of the assassination, except for our being able to hear some very-low-level, long-delay echoes that originally might have been inaudible.

  "The buildings around the Plaza caused strong reverberations
or echoes that followed the initial sound by from 0.5 to 1.5 sec.
While these reflections caused no confusion to our listeners
who were prepared and expected to hear them they may well
inflated the number of shots reported by the suprised witnesses
during the assassination" HSCA Earwitness Analysis Report, pgs 135-137

[Bill Chapman]

And?------------- Explain why it is important.

Maybe this will help.

WC conclusion pages 110-111
It is possible that the assassin carried an
empty shell in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the witnesses
hearing multiple noises made by the same shot. Soon after the three
empty cartridges were found, officials at the scene decided that three
shots were fired, and that conclusion was widely circulated by the
press. The eyewitness testimony may be subconsciously colored by
the extensive publicity given the conclusion that three shots were fired.

"Boom, click-click>>Boom, click-click>>Boom, click-click"?Harold Norman
 

[Andrew Mason]

 If memory serves in the past it was called Shot Pattern Analysis. I noticed there are some new wrinkles like the Z250 shot. It used to be a shot at Z270 or later.

I never, ever said or suggested that there was a z250 shot. You really need to read more carefully.  z250 is simply the earliest one can place the midpoint between shots 1 and 3.  The second shot as a perceptible time after the midpoint. There are many indicators that the second shot was between z272 and z273.  Not only does JFK's hair lift, but the sun visor over Greer's head that was damaged by a bullet fragment also moves between those frames. JBC's wrist changes appearance there and JBC starts to sail forward before falling back onto his wife.

The 132 witnesses of doom are still somewhat the same.

Yes. They never change.

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Interesting is Hickey like Kinney claims to have seen the hair fly forward due to the bullets impact. They are the only two to make that distinction and what is interesting is they were also room mates.

I am not sure how you know that - what is your source?  In any event, what difference does that make?  Being room-mates means they are going to make up stories about what happened?

[Andrew Mason]

You misquoted Hickey.

?? If you are suggesting that I misrepresented what Hickey said in his statements, please read them again because you have not read them correctly:

November 22, 1963 statement:

"The president was slumped to the left in the car and I observed him come up. I heard what appeared to be two shots and it seemed that the right side of his head was hit and his hair flew forward."


In his November 30, 1963 statement Hickey explains in greater detail the shot sequence:

"The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again."

 

His first statement was different in key aspects. Kinney reiterated what Hickey stated that a bullet impacted JFK's head and his hair flew forward.

There is no material conflict between Hickey's two statements. Read them again, carefully.

In both he says there were three shots.  In both he describes the first shot and then describes the next two. In his second statement he said the last two were in rapid succession. That does not conflict with what he said in his first statement. It just provides more detail.  In his first statement he stated that as a result of those two shots, he observed JFK's hair to fly up and also observed an impact to his head. In his second statement he clarified which shot impacted his head and which one caused his hair to fly up.  He was able to discern that they were separate and distinct shots.

Altgens in his first press news bulletin read live on the air for NBC minutes after the assassination stated there was there was only two shots.

Do you have a quote?  In his WC testimony he was clear that his z256 photo was after the first shot and before any other.  He could vouch for the first and the last but was not sure how many were in between. That to you means he heard only two?

The HSCA explained the timing of the echoes to the original shot. Maybe you were unaware of this.
HSCA Accoustical analysis

All observers rated the rifle shots as very very loud, and they were unable to understand how they could have been described as a firecracker or backfire. Only the pistol, which was subsonic, produced a moderate loudness.

In the early sixties a firecracker that was very popular before it was banned was the cherry bomb. It was deafening. They were banned in 1966.  By 1978 they had not been around for over a decade so when people were asked whether they thought the rifle sounded like a firecracker, they could only compare it to the firecrackers they knew, which were things that went "pop".