Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Oscar Navarro]

Because the conflicting statements were "sorted" by Belin and Ball during their visit to Dallas just days before the WC testimonies were taken. Have you seen the Ball/Belin internal memo to Willens of March 18 (from memory)? They posed some of the same questions I have......they had access to the same statements. They were not dumb.

NSS! All the assistant counsel had access to every statement given by the witnesses and other witnesses related to the particular subject before their testimony. The purpose of the witness testimony before the WC and associate counsel was to get the full story and to question the witnesses of any inconsistencies and/or omissions.

[Colin Crow]

And where were Jarman and Norman questioned by the WC about their previous statements that indicated Williams went up with them........pfft

[Colin Crow]

That's the part of Brennan's testimony that convinced both Belin and Ball that Brennan could identify Oswald. The major factor was that neither Norman or Jarman had yet to give their WC testimony so there was no way of Ball and Belin knowing they were the ones that saw Brennan in front of the TSBD. When Brennan said "I explained that to you this morning" he was referring to his opinion that he would not be able to tell blacks apart (or something to that effect) until the morning of the 22nd but Brennan did not want to repeat that in front of BRW, Jarman and Norman.

See here regarding his identification of the two men on the 5th floor.....

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1712.0.html

Did the WR report rely on Brennan's ID of Oswald btw?

[Zeon Mason]

And to compound the problem  of BRW and a 6th floor shooter missing each other in this 12:21- 12:23 time frame,leaving and entering the SE window by each party, is the supposed presence of Jack Dougherty on BOTH the 5th floor and the 6th floor during the same period of time.

This is a very difficult logistical tangle to work out.

Add in a possible revelation that Sarah Staunton (per interview with relatives), may be a 2nd witness to Oswald on the 2nd floor with a coke near or at the 2nd floor lunchroom , and since Staunton goes out to join BW Frazier, Lovelady on the front entrance steps, BEFORE Carolyn Arnold did, the time approaches ever closer to be nearly RIGHT AT 12:15 of Oswald being seen in the lunchroom.

So either Oswald was really seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom so close to 12:15, thats it nearly simultaneous with Arnold Rowlands SW window shooter observation timestamp of 12:15,, OR, Oswald went up and down TWICE to the 6th floor after being seen by Sarah Staunton about 12:13, then Staunton leaves, and then at 12:17, Oswald is seen by Carolyn Arnold, having returned again to the lunchroom from 6th floor.


And Oswald has to do this trekking up and down the staircases, while BRW is still on the 6th floor, and while Jack Dougherty  is still supposedly working "getting stock" on both 6th and 5th floors, without being seen or heard by BRW or Jack Dougherty.


And Oswald also has to time precisely when to return to 6th floor just before Normand and Jarman, which would be just 1 or 2 minutes after having meet Carolyn Arnold at 12:17, and Oswald able to get past Jack Dougherty AGAIN for about the THIRD time.

Imo, there are only 2 probable places that Oswald could have hidden during upon returning a THIRD time to the 6th floor.

1. The 6th to 7th floor staircase, going "up" and at the midlanding, Oswalc would be generally out of sight, but still have probabilty to hear elevators in operation. Oswald is position to at least hear the elevator. Also Oswald is in proximity to hear voices, so he could have heard Norman and Jarmans voices on the 5th floor elevator possibly, as they exited the elevator on the 5th floor.


2. Oswald actually hid himself ON the 6th floor, having ability to see thru some crack in stack of boxes but was hidden from view of BRW. IF Oswald is in fact the gunman Arnold Rowland saw, then Oswald IS aware beforehand on returning to the 6th floor after being seen by Carolyn Arnold about 12:17, that BRW is probably STILL on the floor, and Oswald chooses a place to hide that will facilitate being able to see when BRW leaves.


How Oswald avoids being seen by Jack Dougherty is another question though, and it may require a propositon that Jack was actually taking a nap somewhere instead of actually working, and was in a corner asleep during all this movement of 4 persons  using elevators amd staorcase. and walking across both 6th and 5th floors, yet unseen and unheard by JD.

[Colin Crow]

And to compound the problem  of BRW and a 6th floor shooter missing each other in this 12:21- 12:23 time frame,leaving and entering the SE window by each party, is the supposed presence of Jack Dougherty on BOTH the 5th floor and the 6th floor during the same period of time.

This is a very difficult logistical tangle to work out.

Add in a possible revelation that Sarah Staunton (per interview with relatives), may be a 2nd witness to Oswald on the 2nd floor with a coke near or at the 2nd floor lunchroom , and since Staunton goes out to join BW Frazier, Lovelady on the front entrance steps, BEFORE Carolyn Arnold did, the time approaches ever closer to be nearly RIGHT AT 12:15 of Oswald being seen in the lunchroom.

So either Oswald was really seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom so close to 12:15, thats it nearly simultaneous with Arnold Rowlands SW window shooter observation timestamp of 12:15,, OR, Oswald went up and down TWICE to the 6th floor after being seen by Sarah Staunton about 12:13, then Staunton leaves, and then at 12:17, Oswald is seen by Carolyn Arnold, having returned again to the lunchroom from 6th floor.


And Oswald has to do this trekking up and down the staircases, while BRW is still on the 6th floor, and while Jack Dougherty  is still supposedly working "getting stock" on both 6th and 5th floors, without being seen or heard by BRW or Jack Dougherty.


And Oswald also has to time precisely when to return to 6th floor just before Normand and Jarman, which would be just 1 or 2 minutes after having meet Carolyn Arnold at 12:17, and Oswald able to get past Jack Dougherty AGAIN for about the THIRD time.

Imo, there are only 2 probable places that Oswald could have hidden during upon returning a THIRD time to the 6th floor.

1. The 6th to 7th floor staircase, going "up" and at the midlanding, Oswalc would be generally out of sight, but still have probabilty to hear elevators in operation. Oswald is position to at least hear the elevator. Also Oswald is in proximity to hear voices, so he could have heard Norman and Jarmans voices on the 5th floor elevator possibly, as they exited the elevator on the 5th floor.


2. Oswald actually hid himself ON the 6th floor, having ability to see thru some crack in stack of boxes but was hidden from view of BRW. IF Oswald is in fact the gunman Arnold Rowland saw, then Oswald IS aware beforehand on returning to the 6th floor after being seen by Carolyn Arnold about 12:17, that BRW is probably STILL on the floor, and Oswald chooses a place to hide that will facilitate being able to see when BRW leaves.


How Oswald avoids being seen by Jack Dougherty is another question though, and it may require a propositon that Jack was actually taking a nap somewhere instead of actually working, and was in a corner asleep during all this movement of 4 persons  using elevators amd staorcase. and walking across both 6th and 5th floors, yet unseen and unheard by JD.

Zeon, with respect to the elevators, Williams essentially locks away the east elevator on the 6th floor from the time he arrives until he departs, some time after 12.25pm. This left the west elevator available. We know Norman and Jarman ascended just before 12.25pm and used the west elevator. They noticed the east elevator already on a high floor from the ground floor. After exiting on the fifth they closed the gates on the west elevator allowing it to be "called" remotely. It would seem that Dougherty then called the west elevator down and took it to the 6th floor. He claimed to have gone momentarily to the 6th floor, leaving the gates open. He then claimed to have taken the west elevator down to the fifth floor just before the shots. The west elevator  and east elevator were both on upper floors when Truly and Baker tried to use them. Dougherty must have once again left the gates open on the west elevator as it was not able to be "called" by Truly.

As for Oswald sightings, it seems there was a gunman on the sixth floor about 12.15 (Rowland?s observation). Carolyn Arnold had two varying stories, the original talked of seeing him near the front door well after 12.15, the second in the second floor lunch room, about 12.15. I am not sure what to make of those versions.

Certainly the WR version of action on the 6th floor does not convey a scene with at least three people there over the five minutes before the shooting.

[Colin Crow]

Hello to DVP......feel free to correct anything David.

[Walt Cakebread]

That's the part of Brennan's testimony that convinced both Belin and Ball that Brennan could identify Oswald. The major factor was that neither Norman or Jarman had yet to give their WC testimony so there was no way of Ball and Belin knowing they were the ones that saw Brennan in front of the TSBD. When Brennan said "I explained that to you this morning" he was referring to his opinion that he would not be able to tell blacks apart (or something to that effect) until the morning of the 22nd but Brennan did not want to repeat that in front of BRW, Jarman and Norman.

The major factor was that neither Norman or Jarman had yet to give their WC testimony so there was no way of Ball and Belin knowing they were the ones that saw Brennan in front of the TSBD.

Utterly absurd!!...   Six months after the event and you are proposing that The lawyers were just learning the details....??

[John Iacoletti]

That's the part of Brennan's testimony that convinced both Belin and Ball that Brennan could identify Oswald.

That is so "convincing"!

"I am not sure. . . I don't know which of those two. . . No; I won't say for sure. . .Am I right or wrong?"

Maybe he was right the first time.  He saw a couple of black guys in the window, saw two black guys come out and assumed they were the same guys (and yet somehow missed Oswald allegedly walking right out the front door).  Then he sat with them on the plane to Washington and his memory "improved".

How many black guys walked out of the TSBD after the assassination?