Lack Of Damage To CE-399

[Tim Nickerson]

Thanks for posting this.  Where did you find these?

This confirms that the visors were struck by blood, tissue or bone fragments.  It also indicates that the right visor was struck on both sides, which suggests that material bounced off the windshield or frame and hit the front side of the right visor. Both visors were flipped up at the time of the shots and not as showing in the sketch.

I can't remember where I got them Andrew. I have others by Frazier as well. If you'd like to see them , I'd be glad to send them your way.

[Tim Nickerson]

The basic facts are.... the nominal weight of the bullet is 160 grains.... but due to  manufacturing tolerance it could have weighed 159.5

Or it could have weighed 161.5 grains, like one weighed by Robert Frazier.

CE399 obviously lost some weight in the barrel of the rifle..... which would put it's weight at approximately 159.6 at the muzzle.....CE 399 weighed 158.6

Any weight lost in the barrel would be negligible.

Which leaves only one (1)  grain for the fragments.....  and the fragment in Connally's leg was probably heavier than 1 grain....

From the WC testimony of Dr. Shires:

Mr. SPECTER - What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?
Dr. SHIRES - One millimeter in diameter---one to two.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains?
Dr. SHIRES - In grains---a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain---very small.
Mr. SPECTER - A tenth of one grain?
Dr. SHIRES - Yes.


Dr. Gregory, in looking at the X-Ray of the thigh, said that the fragment was about 5 tenths of a millimeter by 2 millimeters. At those dimensions, the lead fragment would weigh 17.8 milligrams. One grain is equivalent to 64.8 milligrams. So, that fragment weighed about 1/4 of a grain.

[Tim Nickerson]

Nothing "precludes" them.   The lead that was impacted into the femur could have been made by the butt end of CE399.   But the characteristics of the wrist wound - particularly the damage to the radius and the spray of metal flakes into the arm itself - suggests that it was struck by something other than CE399.   The damage to the radius, if made by a slower moving CE399 would have to be made by the hard nose of the bullet.  SPersonivan's figures for speed and yield pressure of the MC 6.5 mm ammunition was based on the nose striking bone, not the softer butt end.  I expect that the yield pressure of the butt end was substantially less so that if the butt end had struck the radius with enough force to break the very hard radius, there would have been more damage to the bullet.

Two things: 1) The lead fragment was not in the femur. 2) SPersonivan's figure for speed and yield pressure of the MC 6.5 mm ammunition was based on the butt end striking bone, not the nose. The fragments in the wrist are explained by the bullet striking base first.

[Tim Nickerson]

Thanks for posting this.  Where did you find these?

This confirms that the visors were struck by blood, tissue or bone fragments.  It also indicates that the right visor was struck on both sides, which suggests that material bounced off the windshield or frame and hit the front side of the right visor. Both visors were flipped up at the time of the shots and not as showing in the sketch.

A better copy and the the backside of page:





I think that I may have got those from the ED forum. Not sure though.

[Steve Logan]

A better copy and the the backside of page:





I think that I may have got those from the ED forum. Not sure though.

He doesn't mention any hole in windshield. He must have been in on it. One of the 645 conspirators.

[Tim Nickerson]

He doesn't mention any hole in windshield. He must have been in on it. One of the 645 conspirators.

He was one of the main figures in the whole conspiracy.

[Liam Kelly]

The examination of the provenance and authenticity of CE399 was a joint collaboration of Garry Aguilar
and Josiah Thompson.

This is my chief source for these points and my source for the lack of Todds initials on the bullet is
John Hunt who did examine it at the archives.

Hunt was adamant they were not to be found.

I'm quite happy to entertain the possibility that a scratch on a bullet may be hard to find,
but remember, this is stored in the National Archives, not someone's garage and the propostion that "the initials are
there but we just cant see them' is unsatisfactory to say the least.

I have no reason to believe that Todd was lying when he swore he initialed the bullet.
I also, have no reason to believe that John Hunt was lying when he says on close examination of the bullet
the initials are not present.
So, at this stage that point is unresolved.

Tim, you said
"Odum was well into his 80s and four decades had passed. He can be forgiven for not recalling having handled the bullet."

Really Tim?
Where is the proof his memory was deficient or that the passage of years had somehow affected the reliability of his statement?

And it's not a question of memory in any case.
He did not say he couldnt recall the bullet...he said he had never ever seen or touched CE399 and further more, he said that he
 had never visited Wright or Tomlinson as part of any enquiry into it's authenticity.
Nothing vague about that..

Fazier and his times:
If Frazier has demonstrated a pattern of incorrect entry of times in various documents it matters not and if so then
discussion of whether or not this item fits that pattern is yet another point.
Im happy to accept the possibility of errors from Frazier.
As far as the points I'm making, what Frazier does or doesnt do is somewhat irrelevant.
My points on this matter dont rely on Frazier's accuracy with times.

Here is my position which reflects my first post on the topic.

OP Wright said the bullet in the archives is not the one they found at Parkland.

An FBI memo says Odum showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson and they recognised it.
Odum says he did no such thing and he has never laid eyes or hands on CE399.

Elmer Todd said he initalled the bullet.
John Hunt says that the initialls cannot be found on the bullet in the archives.

Any enquiry as to the authenticity and provenance of the bullet is therefore problematic and as far as I'm
concerned remains unresolved.

The other point I also made was that the 'magic bullet theory' was just that...a theory.
The commssion was split down the middle on this and said exactly that,  and further stated that whether
or not the theory was true, it didnt matter to the conclusions of it's report anyway.
And its worthwhile to note that the 'theory' was the  commissions.
The FBI backed the governor's account of 2 separate bullets.

In my view, the official account concerning CE399 says far more about the commission and the FBI, than it
does about the shooting.













 

[Tim Nickerson]

The examination of the provenance and authenticity of CE399 was a joint collaboration of Garry Aguilar
and Josiah Thompson.

This is my chief source for these points and my source for the lack of Todds initials on the bullet is
John Hunt who did examine it at the archives.

Hunt was adamant they were not to be found.

I'm quite happy to entertain the possibility that a scratch on a bullet may be hard to find,
but remember, this is stored in the National Archives, not someone's garage and the propostion that "the initials are
there but we just cant see them' is unsatisfactory to say the least.

Hunt did not examine the actual bullet itself. He viewed the same low resolution photos that we see today at the National Archives site online.

I have no reason to believe that Todd was lying when he swore he initialed the bullet.
I also, have no reason to believe that John Hunt was lying when he says on close examination of the bullet
the initials are not present.
So, at this stage that point is unresolved.

Scratch off the bolded part and it makes it a lot easier.

Tim, you said
"Odum was well into his 80s and four decades had passed. He can be forgiven for not recalling having handled the bullet."

Really Tim?
Where is the proof his memory was deficient or that the passage of years had somehow affected the reliability of his statement?

And it's not a question of memory in any case.
He did not say he couldnt recall the bullet...he said he had never ever seen or touched CE399 and further more, he said that he
 had never visited Wright or Tomlinson as part of any enquiry into it's authenticity.
Nothing vague about that..

Come on Liam, you know full well that my point is valid.

Fazier and his times:
If Frazier has demonstrated a pattern of incorrect entry of times in various documents it matters not and if so then
discussion of whether or not this item fits that pattern is yet another point.
Im happy to accept the possibility of errors from Frazier.
As far as the points I'm making, what Frazier does or doesnt do is somewhat irrelevant.
My points on this matter dont rely on Frazier's accuracy with times.

Here is my position which reflects my first post on the topic.

OP Wright said the bullet in the archives is not the one they found at Parkland.

An FBI memo says Odum showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson and they recognised it.
Odum says he did no such thing and he has never laid eyes or hands on CE399.

Elmer Todd said he initalled the bullet.
John Hunt says that the initialls cannot be found on the bullet in the archives.

Any enquiry as to the authenticity and provenance of the bullet is therefore problematic and as far as I'm
concerned remains unresolved.

The authenticity and provenance is only problematic in the minds of some CTs.











Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office.
Mr. EISENBERG - Does that have your mark on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it does.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

As you can see, in the case of CE-399, there really isn't a lack of evidence though, is there?

The other point I also made was that the 'magic bullet theory' was just that...a theory.
The commssion was split down the middle on this and said exactly that,  and further stated that whether
or not the theory was true, it didnt matter to the conclusions of it's report anyway.
And its worthwhile to note that the 'theory' was the  commissions.
The FBI backed the governor's account of 2 separate bullets.

In my view, the official account concerning CE399 says far more about the commission and the FBI, than it
does about the shooting.

The FBI never really backed the Governor's account of 2 separate bullets. Just look at the drawing of Robert Frazier's that I posted. No bullet holes were found in the limo. The bullet that passed through Kennedy had to go somewhere. If not into Connally, then where?