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Author Topic: Oswald's Rifle Capability  (Read 27937 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2019, 04:04:06 AM »
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...and you know this how?

AFAIK:

Dry firing is an excellent way of aquiring the 'feel' needed to operate this particular rifle
The rifle's firing pin somewhat fragile condition limited the time each tester was allowed to dry fire

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2019, 04:04:06 AM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2019, 04:14:07 AM »
AFAIK:Dry firing is an excellent way of aquiring the 'feel' needed to operate this particular rifle
The rifle's firing pin somewhat fragile condition limited the time each tester was allowed to dry fire
AFAIK: --Means he doesn't know what he's talking about.
 

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2019, 04:41:55 AM »
AFAIK: --Means he doesn't know what he's talking about.
 

Challenge what I said

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2019, 04:41:55 AM »


Offline Peter Kleinschmidt

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2019, 06:33:52 AM »
Challenge what I said
Get that NYTimes edition of fluff and challenge yourself.
Preacher Ross will help, he is very fond of the same edition and I believe you two will hit it off big.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2019, 03:30:10 PM »
AFAIK:

Dry firing is an excellent way of aquiring the 'feel' needed to operate this particular rifle
The rifle's firing pin somewhat fragile condition limited the time each tester was allowed to dry fire

You said "Oswald had a feel for the bolt action".  How do you know this?


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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2019, 03:30:10 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2019, 04:04:57 PM »
AFAIK:

Dry firing is an excellent way of aquiring the 'feel' needed to operate this particular rifle
The rifle's firing pin somewhat fragile condition limited the time each tester was allowed to dry fire

Oswald had a feel for the bolt action, --------Practice makes perfect

Yer an idiot Crapman....  If you'd handled a Carcano for yourself perhaps you would not appear as such a dumbass.....

Nobody could overcome the cranky stiff opening of the bolt of the rifle ....no matter how much they practiced...
 
Unless the rifled was locked securely in a rifle vise the opening of the bolt pulls the rifle off target every time it is opened to eject a spent shell...

Hey Crapman... You've changed yer tune....  You first bleated about Lee Oswald having a feel for the bolt action ( which you don't have one iota of evidence to support that wild statement) and now you've made an even wilder statement that Lee dry fired the carcano.   

Operating the bolt ( as you first stated) is NOT the same as "dry firing"....  But either of your ideas ( or both of them) are totally unsupported by any evidence that he
operated the bolt repeatedly, or   dry fired the rifle.....

And only a ignoramus would argue that either exercise  contributes much toward becoming a world class Sharpshooter ( as the imaginary shooter in the TSBD would have to have been) 
Bottom line...Lee would have had to have burned dozens of rounds to become proficient with that carcano.

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2019, 02:02:30 PM »

When the Army tested the Carcano, using 3 expert marksman, they concluded a person would need considerable experience with
weapons and considerable experience in paticular with the Carcano to make the shots proposed by the WC.

Aside from the scope being misaligned and needing shims added before it could be adjusted and the iron sights being sighted
@ 200mtrs, which caused the rifle to fire high at lesser distances, they found two other dificulties when firing the Carcano.

First, the difficulty of operating the bolt caused the shooter to take the sights off the target when cycling it between
shots.

Second, the two stage trigger of the Carcano created a hair trigger during it's second stage of firing.

They concluded the shooter would need live firing practice to overcome these difficulties.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39#relPageId=449&tab=page

Warren Commission Hearings, Volume III
Current Section: Ronald Simmons

~snip~

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to
shoot in the range of 1.2-mil aiming error?
Mr. SIMMONS. Obviously considerable experience would have to be in one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I
think also considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of effort required to work the bolt.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy?
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the
target, whereas with greater proficiency this might not have occurred.

~snip~

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say proficiency with this weapon, Mr. Simmons, could you go into detail as to what you mean--do
you mean accuracy with this weapon, or familiarity with the weapon?
Mr. SIMMONS. I mean familiarity basically with two things. One is the action of the bolt itself, and the force required
to open it; and two, the action of the trigger, which is a two-stage trigger.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can familiarity with the trigger and with the bolt be acquired in dry practice?
Mr. SIMMONS. Familiarity with the bolt can, probably as well as during live firing. But familiarity with the trigger
would best be achieved with some firing.

~snip~

Mr. EISENBERG. Why is there this difference between familiarity with the bolt and familiarity with the trigger in dry firing?
Mr. SIMMONS. There tends to be a reaction between the firer and the weapon at the time the weapon is fired, due to the
recoil impulse. And I do not believe the action of the bolt going home would sufficiently simulate the action of the recoil
of the weapon.


Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. But there are two stages to the trigger. Our riflemen were all used to a trigger with a constant pull.
When the slack was taken up, then they expected the round to fire. But actually when the slack is taken up, you tend to
have a hair trigger here, which requires a bit of getting used to.
Mr. McCLOY. This does not have a hair trigger after the slack is taken up?
Mr. SIMMONS. This tends to have the hair trigger as soon as you move it after the slack is taken up. You achieve or you
feel greater resistance to the movement of the trigger, and then ordinarily you would expect the weapon to have fired,
and in this case then as you move it to overcome that, it fires immediately. And our firers were moving the shoulder into
the weapon.

~snip~
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 02:06:27 PM by Gary Craig »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2019, 02:57:38 PM »
When the Army tested the Carcano, using 3 expert marksman, they concluded a person would need considerable experience with
weapons and considerable experience in paticular with the Carcano to make the shots proposed by the WC.

Aside from the scope being misaligned and needing shims added before it could be adjusted and the iron sights being sighted
@ 200mtrs, which caused the rifle to fire high at lesser distances, they found two other dificulties when firing the Carcano.

First, the difficulty of operating the bolt caused the shooter to take the sights off the target when cycling it between
shots.

Second, the two stage trigger of the Carcano created a hair trigger during it's second stage of firing.

They concluded the shooter would need live firing practice to overcome these difficulties.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39#relPageId=449&tab=page

Warren Commission Hearings, Volume III
Current Section: Ronald Simmons

~snip~

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to
shoot in the range of 1.2-mil aiming error?
Mr. SIMMONS. Obviously considerable experience would have to be in one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I
think also considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of effort required to work the bolt.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy?
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the
target, whereas with greater proficiency this might not have occurred.

~snip~

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say proficiency with this weapon, Mr. Simmons, could you go into detail as to what you mean--do
you mean accuracy with this weapon, or familiarity with the weapon?
Mr. SIMMONS. I mean familiarity basically with two things. One is the action of the bolt itself, and the force required
to open it; and two, the action of the trigger, which is a two-stage trigger.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can familiarity with the trigger and with the bolt be acquired in dry practice?
Mr. SIMMONS. Familiarity with the bolt can, probably as well as during live firing. But familiarity with the trigger
would best be achieved with some firing.

~snip~

Mr. EISENBERG. Why is there this difference between familiarity with the bolt and familiarity with the trigger in dry firing?
Mr. SIMMONS. There tends to be a reaction between the firer and the weapon at the time the weapon is fired, due to the
recoil impulse. And I do not believe the action of the bolt going home would sufficiently simulate the action of the recoil
of the weapon.


Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. But there are two stages to the trigger. Our riflemen were all used to a trigger with a constant pull.
When the slack was taken up, then they expected the round to fire. But actually when the slack is taken up, you tend to
have a hair trigger here, which requires a bit of getting used to.
Mr. McCLOY. This does not have a hair trigger after the slack is taken up?
Mr. SIMMONS. This tends to have the hair trigger as soon as you move it after the slack is taken up. You achieve or you
feel greater resistance to the movement of the trigger, and then ordinarily you would expect the weapon to have fired,
and in this case then as you move it to overcome that, it fires immediately. And our firers were moving the shoulder into
the weapon.

~snip~

First, the difficulty of operating the bolt caused the shooter to take the sights off the target when cycling it between
shots
.

Yes ...That has been my experience also....The carcano has a tendency to rotate counter clockwise when opening the bolt to eject a spend shell.  The reason is:.. The stiff firing pin spring is compressed on the opening stroke of the bolt.   Once that spring is compressed and latched the tester can close the bolt and operate it without much effort.    Therefore simply practicing without pulling the trigger is worse than not practicing at all, because it's unrealistic practice. 

Second, the two stage trigger of the Carcano created a hair trigger during it's second stage of firing.

Yes that's right....The trigger pull is rough...It has a long take up and it requires more muscle than most rifles, and then is unpredictable ......

They concluded the shooter would need live firing practice to overcome these difficulties.

EXACTLY!!....  And I would hasten to point out that there isn't one iota of evidence that Lee Oswald ever fired even ONE  live round in a carcano.

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Re: Oswald's Rifle Capability
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2019, 02:57:38 PM »