BWF and LMR may not have been the only ones who saw LHO with a bag on 11/22/1963

[Alan Ford]

Great posts! Distilled to its simplest, is the point ?

1.) More evidence the Warren Commission in cooperation with DPD, SS, and FBI conducted a purposely corrupt investigation.

2.) A main, if not the central motivation for conducting a corrupt investigation was to reinforce the foregone conclusion Oswald was a lone assassin.

Good to see you've moved on from Ms Davison's 'nothing-to-see-here' spin on this issue, Mr Scully! 

[Colin Crow]

What I do find impressive is the closeness of Mr Frazier and Ms Randle's length estimate for the folded-down bag---------27 inches---------to the actual length of the 2 curtain rods submitted for fingerprinting-----------27.5 inches, 27.6 inches.

Could it be that is because that is how long curtain rods happen to be? Paine garage ones or otherwise. I am not doubting your proposed scenario, just whether the 'curtain rod story' existed before LMR visited the Paine's on the 22nd.

[Alan Ford]

Could it be that is because that is how long curtain rods happen to be? Paine garage ones or otherwise. I am not doubting your proposed scenario, just whether the 'curtain rod story' existed before LMR visited the Paine's on the 22nd.

Curtain rods come in a variety of lengths. If Mr Frazier and Ms Randle guessed 27 inches, that was an extremely lucky guess! Besides, how did they know Ms Paine had any ~27-inch curtain rods going spare in her home?

The fact of 2 curtain rods 'marked 275 & 276' being submitted for fingerprinting on 15 March lends powerful support to their story (and, of course, to Mr Oswald's innocence).

[Tom Scully]

What I do find impressive is the closeness of Mr Frazier and Ms Randle's length estimate for the folded-down bag---------27 inches---------to the actual length of the 2 curtain rods submitted for fingerprinting-----------27.5 inches, 27.6 inches.

I'll tell you why I am less impressed about the brother/sister package length assertions than I once was.
They were motivated to agree before their 302s were taken to discuss and synch their stated approximations of the length.

LInnie Frazier Randall estimates package length to FBI on 01 Dec., 1963:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140&search=linnie_and+package#relPageId=426&tab=page

Possibly they had a day's advantage to satisfy themselves (a reliable assumption, or not) there was no reporting of other witnesses claiming to have observed any similar paper sack while in transit. Frazier had been subjected to harsh interrogation including psychological manipulation. Police searched their home and
confiscated his rifle, of US manufacture.

Frazier and his sister had no incentive to admit observing Frazier transporting Oswald and a paper sack actually a foot longer to the TSBD and Oswald infamy.
They were country people from Huntsville, Frazier only months before. Is it unreasonable to contemplate they were suddenly deer in the headlights, their 27" assertions a leap away from the headlights's beam and of the path of the course they illuminated?

[Tim Nickerson]

Au contrare Tim, I sense you have not been following my contributions. The Paine rods obtained on the evening of the 23rd, were of no evidentiary value whatsoever, Oswald?s prints or not.

If the doc refers to the Paine rods and the entry date (3/15/64) is incorrect as you stated. Were they submitted after the Paine visit? Ie the next morning at 9.45am and then released after "printing" by Day 5 minutes later? Or are the times incorrect as well?

On the other hand if Howlett submitted rods discovered elsewhere for processing on the 15th, where might they have been found to warrant such analysis?

The "a" below 9:45 is an error as well. It wasn't the only time that Day marked "a" when he should have marked "p".

[Bill Chapman]

I'll tell you why I am less impressed about the brother/sister package length assertions than I once was.
They were motivated to agree before their 302s were taken to discuss and synch their stated approximations of the length.

LInnie Frazier Randall estimates package length to FBI on 01 Dec., 1963:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140&search=linnie_and+package#relPageId=426&tab=page

Possibly they had a day's advantage to satisfy themselves (a reliable assumption, or not) there was no reporting of other witnesses claiming to have observed any similar paper sack while in transit. Frazier had been subjected to harsh interrogation including psychological manipulation. Police searched their home and
confiscated his rifle, of US manufacture.

Frazier and his sister had no incentive to admit observing Frazier transporting Oswald and a paper sack actually a foot longer to the TSBD and Oswald infamy.
They were country people from Huntsville, Frazier only months before. Is it unreasonable to contemplate they were suddenly deer in the headlights, their 27" assertions a leap away from the headlights's beam and of the path of the course they illuminated?

Your Ferrell link re bag length has revealed a few details of which I was heretofore unaware. Namely that Buell saw only a 9"X1" section of the bag as viewed from behind while in Oswald's palm/armpit.

I have been looking for information that would confirm that Buell, at any time, saw Oswald with the package fully revealed to Buell in a full-frontal perspective. Additionally, no one has been able to confirm that Oswald's free arm was in full view as he walked ahead of Buell.

I have experimented with a 35" long-heavy object that can be supported by the left hand, and by drawing it across the chest, (while still supported in the palm in the other hand) can, arguably) be carried out of the view of a trailing, distracted trainspotter.

(The Ferrell link informs that Buell estimated Oswald was no closer than 12' feet to him on the walk towards the TSBD that day)

In addition, I'm 6'-6'1" and can only get 22-23" jammed into my armpit and held in my palm. A 5'9" man would have to be a real knuckle-dragger to get a 27-incher to fit.

Finally, do you know how much the curtain rods weighed?

[Alan Ford]

The "a" below 9:45 is an error as well. It wasn't the only time that Day marked "a" when he should have marked "p".

Day must also have written '2 curtain rods' when he meant to write '2 Russian pamphlets', which were items 275 and 276 of the well-loved Soviet series 'Bedtime Stories by Comrade Lenin'. It is curious that these pamphlets are not officially inventoried anywhere, but there is obviously some documentation missing.

 

[Tim Nickerson]

If the doc refers to the Paine rods and the entry date (3/15/64) is incorrect as you stated. Were they submitted after the Paine visit? Ie the next morning at 9.45am and then released after "printing" by Day 5 minutes later? Or are the times incorrect as well?

With the "March 15 entry being in error" scenario the rods were submitted at 9:45 pm on March 23 and then released at 7:50 the next morning.