BWF and LMR may not have been the only ones who saw LHO with a bag on 11/22/1963

[Walt Cakebread]

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, Mr Crow! 

"In order to establish that no curtain rods were found in the Texas School Book Depository Building..."
----------------as opposed to:
"In order to establish whether any curtain rods were found in the Texas School Book Depository Building..."

I.e. Let's close this thing down!

Remember, this is the same Mr Rankin who wrote the below on 16 March, the day after 2 curtain rods were submitted to the crime lab to check for Mr Oswald's prints...



 

The way it appears to me....(IMO) ...  Rankin and Hoover, and others KNEW that curtain rods had been found in a place that Lee Oswald could have had access to in or near the TSBD.   They knew that those curtain rods could verify Buell Frazier's  statement that Lee had told him that he had curtain rods in the FLIMSY light weight paper sack.   

I don't believe it's necessary to illustrate WHY? the authorities would NOT want the discovery of curtain rods in or near the TSBD to become known to the public....Thus the official documents that basically deny that any curtain rods were found in any place that Lee Oswald would have had access to that morning.

I don't know what it's going to take to convince some folks that it was the authorities that who were conspiring to blame the murder of President Kennedy on a dead Lee Oswald.       

[Zeon Mason]

Since the curtain rod story from Frazier was known within 24 hours after the shooting, then why did it take 4 months to revisit the Paines garage concerning curtain rods?

On DAY ONE of the Nov 22/63 'investigation"  at 3pm, maybe the info from BW Frazier about curtain rods could plausibly have not been relayed to the initial 3 police who searched Mrs Paines garage, so they did not bother to check for any rods, but a WHOLE WEEK goes by, and then a WHOLE MONTH and then 3 MORE MONTHS, and still no concern about curtain rods, until March 23rd, it became VERY IMPORTANT to conduct a search of Mrs Paine garage SIMULTANEOOS with taking more WC testimony from Mrs Paine as she watched.


 

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[Colin Crow]

Since the curtain rod story from Frazier was known within 24 hours after the shooting, then why did it take 4 months to revisit the Paines garage concerning curtain rods?

On DAY ONE of the Nov 22/63 'investigation"  at 3pm, maybe the info from BW Frazier about curtain rods could plausibly have not been relayed to the initial 3 police who searched Mrs Paines garage, so they did not bother to check for any rods, but a WHOLE WEEK goes by, and then a WHOLE MONTH and then 3 MORE MONTHS, and still no concern about curtain rods, until March 23rd, it became VERY IMPORTANT to conduct a search of Mrs Paine garage SIMULTANEOOS with taking more WC testimony from Mrs Paine as she watched.


 

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Here is where the WC became interested in Paine garage curtain rods, March 17 1964.

Mr. LIEBELER - Referring to 142. Now, examine after examining both 142 and 364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your garage or at your home in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to the garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them. We stored some rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or something like that which are still there. I don't know how they came.
Mr. LIEBELER - What kind of curtain rods?
Mr. PAINE - These expanding rods that are----
Mr. LIEBELER - And you have no idea where they came from?
Mr. PAINE - Let's see, no, those came down from--I think those were in the house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking them down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades, I guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. That is a question, well, of course, paper could have been--I don't remember any particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply of it, wrapping paper.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You say they were in the house at the time in Irving when you purchased the house.
Mr. PAINE - Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work bench, and I think they were in our house and there were curtains on them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades in the bedrooms.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately when did she do that, do you remember?
Mr. PAINE - You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new floor, also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I thought it was in the fall, but I can't place when it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - In the fall of 1963?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately how long are they?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain rods themselves are 32 1/2 inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their----
Mr. PAINE - As I say, those came out of house or she would not have, I was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the window shades to go in place of those curtain rods.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might have been a package in which those shades came?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't recall any.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about these curtain rods in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something to do with windows in my mind.
Mr. LIEBELER - But your wife didn't mention to you that Oswald ever mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods?

Not long after the shooting Fritz is told of the missing Oswald and the Paine address (see collaborative timeline project thread https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1894.0.html).

Fritz was going to go immediately to Irving but was asked to see Decker and sends three of his men instead (Rose, Stovall and Adamcek). They waited about half a block from the Paine house for Sherrif's Deputies Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford to join them. Some time later and after the rifle was found missing, Linnie May Randle drove up and spoke to Adamcek.

Mr. BELIN. What happened after it was brought inside?
Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall then at all. I left the house after awhile and went with, I believe it was, Mrs. Paine. I went with her to one of the neighbor houses to see about the children, leaving the children there. I left and went with her.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. That is all I remember her saying.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else on there? Did she say anything that it was unusual for Oswald to be home at all during the week?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; she did say that. That Oswald usually spent the weekends over there, and it was unusual for him to be there on a Thursday night and go to work with him on Friday.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember offhand?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't believe I do.

Funny that LMR knew of the "curtain rod" story the day before (supposedly) and yet failed to mention them. She obviously did not associate the long package with "curtain rods" at that time.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know of him arriving, you know, except on Friday.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday?
Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that?
Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley--
Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you.
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.
Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me.
Mr. BALL. You mean that night?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. After he came home?
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon.
Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you-
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home.
Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.

Convincing?

Consider Frazier had left the TSBD sometime between 1.30pm and 2.00pm. He knew the President was dead. He knew the TSBD was the likely source of the shots. Oswald's name was plasteredd all over the TV and radio before 3pm. Do you think LMR and Buell talked before she went to talk to Adamcek.

I wonder exactly when did Buell first talk of curtain rods with his sister.

[Alan Ford]

Since the curtain rod story from Frazier was known within 24 hours after the shooting, then why did it take 4 months to revisit the Paines garage concerning curtain rods?

Answer: it didn't! It would have been ascertained within 24 hours that two curtain rods were still in the garage, but that two were missing. (Originally: 4 curtain rods.) Not a word of this, of course, gets into the official record.

On DAY ONE of the Nov 22/63 'investigation"  at 3pm, maybe the info from BW Frazier about curtain rods could plausibly have not been relayed to the initial 3 police who searched Mrs Paines garage, so they did not bother to check for any rods, but a WHOLE WEEK goes by, and then a WHOLE MONTH and then 3 MORE MONTHS, and still no concern about curtain rods, until March 23rd, it became VERY IMPORTANT to conduct a search of Mrs Paine garage SIMULTANEOOS with taking more WC testimony from Mrs Paine as she watched.


 

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Exactly    A blatant sham 'discovery' of the rods in the garage! This was the only reason for the ridiculous on-the-record visit to the Paine home on 23 March!

[Alan Ford]

Here is where the WC became interested in Paine garage curtain rods, March 17 1964.

Indeed---the day after Mr Rankin had raised the curtain rods issue with Mr Hoover... which was itself the day after Agent Howlett submitted 2 curtain rods to be tested for Mr Oswald's prints...

The discovery of those curtain rods must have caused quite the panic amongst the Oswald-Acted-Alone investigators! 

[Walt Cakebread]

Here is where the WC became interested in Paine garage curtain rods, March 17 1964.

Mr. LIEBELER - Referring to 142. Now, examine after examining both 142 and 364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your garage or at your home in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to the garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them. We stored some rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or something like that which are still there. I don't know how they came.
Mr. LIEBELER - What kind of curtain rods?
Mr. PAINE - These expanding rods that are----
Mr. LIEBELER - And you have no idea where they came from?
Mr. PAINE - Let's see, no, those came down from--I think those were in the house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking them down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades, I guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. That is a question, well, of course, paper could have been--I don't remember any particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply of it, wrapping paper.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You say they were in the house at the time in Irving when you purchased the house.
Mr. PAINE - Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work bench, and I think they were in our house and there were curtains on them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades in the bedrooms.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately when did she do that, do you remember?
Mr. PAINE - You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new floor, also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I thought it was in the fall, but I can't place when it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - In the fall of 1963?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately how long are they?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain rods themselves are 32 1/2 inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their----
Mr. PAINE - As I say, those came out of house or she would not have, I was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the window shades to go in place of those curtain rods.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might have been a package in which those shades came?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't recall any.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about these curtain rods in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something to do with windows in my mind.
Mr. LIEBELER - But your wife didn't mention to you that Oswald ever mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods?

Not long after the shooting Fritz is told of the missing Oswald and the Paine address (see collaborative timeline project thread https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1894.0.html).

Fritz was going to go immediately to Irving but was asked to see Decker and sends three of his men instead (Rose, Stovall and Adamcek). They waited about half a block from the Paine house for Sherrif's Deputies Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford to join them. Some time later and after the rifle was found missing, Linnie May Randle drove up and spoke to Adamcek.

Mr. BELIN. What happened after it was brought inside?
Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall then at all. I left the house after awhile and went with, I believe it was, Mrs. Paine. I went with her to one of the neighbor houses to see about the children, leaving the children there. I left and went with her.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. That is all I remember her saying.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else on there? Did she say anything that it was unusual for Oswald to be home at all during the week?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; she did say that. That Oswald usually spent the weekends over there, and it was unusual for him to be there on a Thursday night and go to work with him on Friday.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember offhand?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't believe I do.

Funny that LMR knew of the "curtain rod" story the day before (supposedly) and yet failed to mention them. She obviously did not associate the long package with "curtain rods" at that time.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know of him arriving, you know, except on Friday.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday?
Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that?
Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley--
Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you.
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.
Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me.
Mr. BALL. You mean that night?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. After he came home?
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon.
Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you-
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home.
Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.

Convincing?

Consider Frazier had left the TSBD sometime between 1.30pm and 2.00pm. He knew the President was dead. He knew the TSBD was the likely source of the shots. Oswald's name was plasteredd all over the TV and radio before 3pm. Do you think LMR and Buell talked before she went to talk to Adamcek.

I wonder exactly when did Buell first talk of curtain rods with his sister.

Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. That is all I remember her saying.

Why do I get the impression that Adamcik was attempting to exaggerate the size and characteristics ( A box?? NOBODY said anything about the flimsy paper sack being a "BOX" ) of the 27 inch long flimsy paper sack that Lee was carrying that morning?

[Walt Cakebread]

Indeed---the day after Mr Rankin had raised the curtain rods issue with Mr Hoover... which was itself the day after Agent Howlett submitted 2 curtain rods to be tested for Mr Oswald's prints...

The discovery of those curtain rods must have caused quite the panic amongst the Oswald-Acted-Alone investigators! 

The discovery of those curtain rods must have caused quite the panic amongst the Oswald-Acted-Alone investigators!

Yes!!.....  So the question ( for me)  becomes ..... WHO discovered the curtain rods?.....  I would suspect that it was someone who surmised that Lee had dumped the curtain rods after leaving Buell Frazier who was charging his battery back in the parking lot, and before entering the back door of the TSBD.    There were a few honest cops on the DPD ....and one of them was Lt Jack Revill....   Is it possible that Revill had taken it upon himself to look for the curtain rods that Frazier said the Lee carried that morning.....   If so then they official WC "investigators" would be compelled to discredit the curtain rods......and have documentation that the curtain rods had been found in the Paine garage and had no connection to Lee Oswald. 

I doubt that we will ever know WHO discovered the curtain rods in or near the TSBD...... 

[Alan Ford]

I doubt that we will ever know WHO discovered the curtain rods in or near the TSBD......

Sadly, I have to agree with you there, Mr Cakebread! Happily, though, what we do know is what counts:

-----------------Two curtain rods were discovered in a place that warranted their being tested for Mr Oswald's prints...
-----------------Eight days after the submission of these two rods for fingerprint testing, two curtain rods were removed from the Paine garage!

Conclusion? The claim that no curtain rods were ever found at the Depository building is not just unsafe, it's just plain stoopid!