How to frame Oswald?

[Martin Weidmann]

I would like to try another approach to find out if it was even possible to set up Oswald as the patsy for the Kennedy murder. For the time being, I am purposely leaving the Tippit murder out of it because that could have been an unrelated or a spur of the moment matter. Whenever you try to discuss the possibility of Oswald having been framed, the immediate response from the LNs is that a conspiracy to frame Oswald would have required the involvement of thousands of people and I don't really believe that's true. Don't misunderstand, I am not saying that Oswald was an innocent bystander. For him to be framed for this crime (if that's what happened) he would have needed to be involved at least to some extend in some scheme.

It seems to me that the main focus of framing Oswald would have to be through manipulation of the physical evidence. In the Kennedy murder, the principal piece of physical evidence is the rifle, so if a case is to be made that Oswald was framed, how did they do it?

Are the microfilm copy of the order form and envelope authentic? And if so, who wrote them? If they are not authentic, how were they able to use a P.O. box in Oswald's name? If they are authentic, could Oswald have been manipulated into ordering that right and so on? If the order was authentic and filled by Klein's, who received the rifle?

I would be interested in your honest opinions. Having said that, I have no interest in biased denials that a frame up never happened. If, at the end of the day, the conclusion is that framing Oswald was simply too difficult to do, then so be it, but such a conclusion should be reached after the discussion and not at the beginning of it.

So, let's start here; knowing what physical evidence is available, how would you have set up Oswald?
 

[Walt Cakebread]

I would like to try another approach to find out if it was even possible to set up Oswald as the patsy for the Kennedy murder. For the time being, I am purposely leaving the Tippit murder out of it because that could have been an unrelated or a spur of the moment matter. Whenever you try to discuss the possibility of Oswald having been framed, the immediate response from the LNs is that a conspiracy to frame Oswald would have required the involvement of thousands of people and I don't really believe that's true. Don't misunderstand, I am not saying that Oswald was an innocent bystander. For him to be framed for this crime (if that's what happened) he would have needed to be involved at least to some extend in some scheme.

It seems to me that the main focus of framing Oswald would have to be through manipulation of the physical evidence. In the Kennedy murder, the principal piece of physical evidence is the rifle, so if a case is to be made that Oswald was framed, how did they do it?

Are the microfilm copy of the order form and envelope authentic? And if so, who wrote them? If they are not authentic, how were they able to use a P.O. box in Oswald's name? If they are authentic, could Oswald have been manipulated into ordering that right and so on? If the order was authentic and filled by Klein's, who received the rifle?

I would be interested in your honest opinions. Having said that, I have no interest in biased denials that a frame up never happened. If, at the end of the day, the conclusion is that framing Oswald was simply too difficult to do, then so be it, but such a conclusion should be reached after the discussion and not at the beginning of it.

So, let's start here; knowing what physical evidence is available, how would you have set up Oswald?
 

Martin, please consider my proposed scenario.... ( I've posted it many times)   Where by Lee assumed that he was going to be made to appear that he had taken a shot at JFK but missed, and then had fled to Cuba.   Where Lee thought he would be welcomed because Castro hated JFK after the embargo and blockade of Cuba.  And that was the primary goal for Lee Oswald.....The infiltration of Cuba.....

This scenario answers all of your questions....

Yes, Lee ordered a carcano from Kleins  ...and the paper trail is real.   (However the assassinationof JFK wasn't even in the wind at that time...Lee and DeM were working to make it appear the Lee had tried to shoot Walker who also was a foe of Castro..... The same basic MO for both scams.....

Lee was working a make believe scenario while Hoover was pulling his strings and arranging for killers to be there to take advantage of the young, naive, patriotic sucker.

[John Iacoletti]

If you discard all the ridiculous chaff (like "he left his wedding ring behind") that passes for evidence, you're not left with much.  It's a weak, tainted and circumstantial case.  It really boils down to trying to connect the C2766 rifle to the assassination that then trying to connect Oswald to the rifle.  Trying to connect Oswald to the rifle is:

- The Klein's order blank.

Nothing here even needs to be the result of any framing.  Handwriting "analysis" is unscientific, biased, and subjective (even more so in 1964), but especially from a few block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order coupon.  The HSCA panel even admitted that this is tenuous.  And we only heard from the prosecution whose job it was to "convince the public that Oswald was the real assassin", and conveniently the original film was "lost".

- Oswald had access to the PO box listed on Klein's order blank.

But there is no record of shipment, delivery, or pickup by Oswald or anyone else.  An assumption must be made without evidence that Oswald picked up a rifle nevertheless.  Falsifying this would just require either handwriting "C2766" on a copy of a legitimate order, changing the address and/or name on a copy of a legitimate order (and then "losing" the film), and/or finding a legitimate order and dummying up an ID card with that name on it.  It would take a single person in each case.

- A partial palm-print turned up a week later in Washington that Carl Day claimed he lifted from the rifle on the night of 11/22.

We've gone over all of the contradictions in Day's account, but this would take Day either knowingly fabricating evidence (which is not uncommon among police in general and the 1963 Dallas PD in particular), or Latona misidentifying a legitimate print (fingerprint identification is also biased and subjective and the FBI has a history of that too, eg. Brandon Mayfield).  Again, only one person necessary.

- Howard Brennan said he could identify the shooter, then couldn't identify the shooter, then could identify the shooter

The problems with eyewitness accounts being unreliable are well known (see the work of Elizabeth Loftus and others) -- especially so in Brennan's case because he had a livelong pattern of embellishing his story more and more every time he told it, and he was tainted by seeing news reports.  Doesn't require a knowing framing agent, just human error.

- Oswald was pictured in the backyard photos with a rifle that may or may not have been the same rifle.

Also doesn't require anybody to knowingly forge or alter a photo, since the identity of the rifle is nowhere near conclusive.

Is there anything else that actually connects that particular rifle to Oswald?

Let's not forget that there is not much that connects that particular rifle to the assassination either.  It was found in the building that some witnesses thought shots came from.

[Bill Chapman]

If you discard all the ridiculous chaff (like "he left his wedding ring behind") that passes for evidence, you're not left with much.  It's a weak, tainted and circumstantial case.  It really boils down to trying to connect the C2766 rifle to the assassination that then trying to connect Oswald to the rifle.  Trying to connect Oswald to the rifle is:

- The Klein's order blank.

Nothing here even needs to be the result of any framing.  Handwriting "analysis" is unscientific, biased, and subjective (even more so in 1964), but especially from a few block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order coupon.  The HSCA panel even admitted that this is tenuous.  And we only heard from the prosecution whose job it was to "convince the public that Oswald was the real assassin", and conveniently the original film was "lost".

- Oswald had access to the PO box listed on Klein's order blank.

But there is no record of shipment, delivery, or pickup by Oswald or anyone else.  An assumption must be made without evidence that Oswald picked up a rifle nevertheless.  Falsifying this would just require either handwriting "C2766" on a copy of a legitimate order, changing the address and/or name on a copy of a legitimate order (and then "losing" the film), and/or finding a legitimate order and dummying up an ID card with that name on it.  It would take a single person in each case.

- A partial palm-print turned up a week later in Washington that Carl Day claimed he lifted from the rifle on the night of 11/22.

We've gone over all of the contradictions in Day's account, but this would take Day either knowingly fabricating evidence (which is not uncommon among police in general and the 1963 Dallas PD in particular), or Latona misidentifying a legitimate print (fingerprint identification is also biased and subjective and the FBI has a history of that too, eg. Brandon Mayfield).  Again, only one person necessary.

- Howard Brennan said he could identify the shooter, then couldn't identify the shooter, then could identify the shooter

The problems with eyewitness accounts being unreliable are well known (see the work of Elizabeth Loftus and others) -- especially so in Brennan's case because he had a livelong pattern of embellishing his story more and more every time he told it, and he was tainted by seeing news reports.  Doesn't require a knowing framing agent, just human error.

- Oswald was pictured in the backyard photos with a rifle that may or may not have been the same rifle.

Also doesn't require anybody to knowingly forge or alter a photo, since the identity of the rifle is nowhere near conclusive.

Is there anything else that actually connects that particular rifle to Oswald?

Let's not forget that there is not much that connects that particular rifle to the assassination either.  It was found in the building that some witnesses thought shots came from.

Everybody knows him now..

 

[Martin Weidmann]

Martin, please consider my proposed scenario.... ( I've posted it many times)   Where by Lee assumed that he was going to be made to appear that he had taken a shot at JFK but missed, and then had fled to Cuba.   Where Lee thought he would be welcomed because Castro hated JFK after the embargo and blockade of Cuba.  And that was the primary goal for Lee Oswald.....The infiltration of Cuba.....

This scenario answers all of your questions....

Walt, even if this scenario answers all my questions, it's still highly speculative and not really what I was looking for. You see, your scenario goes to motive where I am looking for how the framing of Oswald (if that's what happened) was actually done.

Yes, Lee ordered a carcano from Kleins  ...and the paper trail is real. 

If we assume that the paper trail is real and Oswald did order the rifle, then how does that relate to him being framed?

(However the assassinationof JFK wasn't even in the wind at that time...Lee and DeM were working to make it appear the Lee had tried to shoot Walker who also was a foe of Castro..... The same basic MO for both scams.....

Lee was working a make believe scenario while Hoover was pulling his strings and arranging for killers to be there to take advantage of the young, naive, patriotic sucker.

So, if I understand you correctly it is your opinion that ordering the rifle was not part of Oswald being framed for the Kennedy murder but merely that it came in handy.

[Martin Weidmann]

If you discard all the ridiculous chaff (like "he left his wedding ring behind") that passes for evidence, you're not left with much.  It's a weak, tainted and circumstantial case.  It really boils down to trying to connect the C2766 rifle to the assassination that then trying to connect Oswald to the rifle.  Trying to connect Oswald to the rifle is:

- The Klein's order blank.

Nothing here even needs to be the result of any framing.  Handwriting "analysis" is unscientific, biased, and subjective (even more so in 1964), but especially from a few block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order coupon.  The HSCA panel even admitted that this is tenuous.  And we only heard from the prosecution whose job it was to "convince the public that Oswald was the real assassin", and conveniently the original film was "lost".

- Oswald had access to the PO box listed on Klein's order blank.

But there is no record of shipment, delivery, or pickup by Oswald or anyone else.  An assumption must be made without evidence that Oswald picked up a rifle nevertheless.  Falsifying this would just require either handwriting "C2766" on a copy of a legitimate order, changing the address and/or name on a copy of a legitimate order (and then "losing" the film), and/or finding a legitimate order and dummying up an ID card with that name on it.  It would take a single person in each case.

- A partial palm-print turned up a week later in Washington that Carl Day claimed he lifted from the rifle on the night of 11/22.

We've gone over all of the contradictions in Day's account, but this would take Day either knowingly fabricating evidence (which is not uncommon among police in general and the 1963 Dallas PD in particular), or Latona misidentifying a legitimate print (fingerprint identification is also biased and subjective and the FBI has a history of that too, eg. Brandon Mayfield).  Again, only one person necessary.

- Howard Brennan said he could identify the shooter, then couldn't identify the shooter, then could identify the shooter

The problems with eyewitness accounts being unreliable are well known (see the work of Elizabeth Loftus and others) -- especially so in Brennan's case because he had a livelong pattern of embellishing his story more and more every time he told it, and he was tainted by seeing news reports.  Doesn't require a knowing framing agent, just human error.

- Oswald was pictured in the backyard photos with a rifle that may or may not have been the same rifle.

Also doesn't require anybody to knowingly forge or alter a photo, since the identity of the rifle is nowhere near conclusive.

Is there anything else that actually connects that particular rifle to Oswald?

Let's not forget that there is not much that connects that particular rifle to the assassination either.  It was found in the building that some witnesses thought shots came from.

If you discard all the ridiculous chaff (like "he left his wedding ring behind") that passes for evidence, you're not left with much.  It's a weak, tainted and circumstantial case.


I agree

- The Klein's order blank.

Nothing here even needs to be the result of any framing.  Handwriting "analysis" is unscientific, biased, and subjective (even more so in 1964), but especially from a few block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order coupon.  The HSCA panel even admitted that this is tenuous.  And we only heard from the prosecution whose job it was to "convince the public that Oswald was the real assassin", and conveniently the original film was "lost".


If we assume that the order form was indeed falsified, it would nevertheless have had to enter Klein's system to produce the remainder of the paper trail, wouldn't it? Or do you think it's possible that both order form and the subsequent documents were falsified and added to Klein's records after the fact? And would that not make it part of a cover up rather than framing Oswald in advance?

- Oswald had access to the PO box listed on Klein's order blank.

But there is no record of shipment, delivery, or pickup by Oswald or anyone else.  An assumption must be made without evidence that Oswald picked up a rifle nevertheless.  Falsifying this would just require either handwriting "C2766" on a copy of a legitimate order, changing the address and/or name on a copy of a legitimate order (and then "losing" the film), and/or finding a legitimate order and dummying up an ID card with that name on it.  It would take a single person in each case.

I agree that the only document available that even remotely suggests a rifle being shipped to Oswald's P.O. box is Waldman 7, but in order to generate a legitimate order (if that's what Waldman 7 is) and to later add "C2766" in handwriting, wouldn't one need to order a rifle from Klein's first? Or do you consider it possible that they used another, completely unrelated, legitimate order and altered it? If so, it could only have been done by the FBI, in which case one wonders again if it was done as part of the framing of Oswald in advance or as part of the cover up after the fact. The thing that bothers me about the latter option is that it would require the involvement or participation, at least to some extent, of the FBI agents that visited Klein's and checked their records.

- A partial palm-print turned up a week later in Washington that Carl Day claimed he lifted from the rifle on the night of 11/22.

We've gone over all of the contradictions in Day's account, but this would take Day either knowingly fabricating evidence (which is not uncommon among police in general and the 1963 Dallas PD in particular), or Latona misidentifying a legitimate print (fingerprint identification is also biased and subjective and the FBI has a history of that too, eg. Brandon Mayfield).  Again, only one person necessary.

It seems to me that the fingerprint matter relates more to the cover up, where they had to sell Oswald's guilt to the public, rather than the framing of Oswald before the fact. I don't really see Day being part of a conspiracy to frame Oswald, but I do think it is possible he used Oswald's convenient death to fabricate evidence to support a very weak circumstantial case.

- Oswald was pictured in the backyard photos with a rifle that may or may not have been the same rifle.

Also doesn't require anybody to knowingly forge or alter a photo, since the identity of the rifle is nowhere near conclusive.

True, but getting Oswald to pose with a rifle and revolver that were not his own must have served some purpose. So, how did they get him to do it and what was it for? And if you get Oswald to pose with those weapons then you already have him involved, maybe unwittingly, in something, so why not go the extra step and simply have him order the rifle (and perhaps the revolver also) under the same pretense? In any event, if you assume that Oswald was set up, you can't really seperate IMO the Klein's transaction from the BY photos as the photos would be insignificant without the documentation of purchase.

The whole thing doesn't really make any sense, because the interrogation reports tell us that Oswald denied owning a rifle and Marina, in her Day 1 affidavit, did the same, yet we have Marina taking pictures of Oswald holding a rifle and we have Oswald allegedly ordering a rifle. Food for thought.....

[Michael Walton]

The framing IMO began on Sunday night on live TV when Dan Rather described the Zapruder film to the nation (but of course the nation never saw that film publicly until 1975). In it, he described how he fell forward when he was hit in the head, leaving out the back and to the left motion. I know any number of people are going to disagree with this "back and to the left" movement as signifying that it was caused by a frontal shot.

I have high-speed videos of men whose heads are in the same position as Kennedy's and they both take high-powered shots to the back of the head - neither of them go back and to the left like Kennedy did. But the point being, someone told Rather to keep it simple when he, as a reporter, "described" what he saw.

Oswald was already dead at this point when Rather went on TV, so it's very easy to manipulate the story and we have proof of that with the Katzenbach memo. No films or photos needed to be faked as it's much easier to manipulate the record by a bunch of lawyers, suppressing or not interviewing witnesses who go against the grain of the official story, showcasing those who do, interrupting witness testimony and injecting statements that kind of change the shape of the testimony, and so on.

Further, no body alteration and throwing his body into the cargo of AF1 and being picked up by a thrumming helicopter to be squirreled away and altered by mad doctors with scalpels at the ready was needed as well as all of the other nonsense. This was all created by "esteemed" authors to make a buck and to shovel their bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns to the many suckers out there.

We must also include Oswald's own statements - he said he was a patsy; he said the BYP were fake and in time he could prove it; he said he was out front during the P parade (corroborated by two people now); a co-worker testified that LHO asked him what the ruckus was about before the shooting. And it's very, very possible he was caught on camera standing in the front vestibule moments after the shooting.

And to Walt Cakebread - your silly story about Oswald being told he was going to take a potshot at Kennedy is an old one. I remember reading that way back in the early 70s.  It's a silly story. Oswald was no dummy and I think it'd be next to impossible to get anyone to go along with a ridiculous caper like that.

Ruth Payne got him the job there. Who had all of this additional paperwork on him afterward?

I invite you to go here:

http://www.pwc-sii.com/CourtDocs/Transcripts/Distaso-CA.htm

This is the closing argument by the district attorney during the Scott Peterson case. I know - WTF are you posting this for as it's got nothing to do with JFK. But take a while to read it. In it, I love the parts where this guy says over and over again, "It makes no sense. It's unreasonable."

Then apply this thinking to the JFK case. Is it reasonable, for example, to expect a guy to fire world-class shots at the president, dodge a bunch of boxes and hide his weapon and then be down on the 2nd floor calm and collected drinking  a soft drink when he's seen there 90 seconds afterward?  And so on and so forth.

[Walt Cakebread]

Walt, even if this scenario answers all my questions, it's still highly speculative and not really what I was looking for. You see, your scenario goes to motive where I am looking for how the framing of Oswald (if that's what happened) was actually done.

If we assume that the paper trail is real and Oswald did order the rifle, then how does that relate to him being framed?


So, if I understand you correctly it is your opinion that ordering the rifle was not part of Oswald being framed for the Kennedy murder but merely that it came in handy.

If we assume that the paper trail is real and Oswald did order the rifle, then how does that relate to him being framed?

Hoover had Lee under surveillance ( Postal inspector Holmes admitted that he was an FBI informant)  because he believed that Lee was a turncoat traitor and a commie ....So he knew that Lee had received a rifle from Kleins, and he knew where to find the paperwork....  When he learned that the rifle had been purchased as a stage prop for the BY photo and as a throw down gun after the bullet was fired through Walker's window he hoped that Lee would succeed in escaping to Cuba.... And good riddance.   

You may recall that George De M made a late night call at the Oswald's apt on the night of April 13, 1963.   George wanted to know where his carcano was....and Lee told him that it was still under the brush pile near Walker's house....  George told him to go and bring it back because, their scheme had fizzled he wanted to get rid the rifle.   Lee went out to Turtle Creek and brought the rifle to the apartment the next day.   I believe that Lee returned the rifle to De M later in the week and De M took it to a pawn shop before he departed Dallas on April 19 bound for Washington DC.    Where he spent a few days before leaving the country ...... 

Hoover knew  where the rifle had been pawned....and he knew that Lee was a naive gullible sucker who could easily be set up as an assassin when the time was ripe.