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Author Topic: A straight line  (Read 164356 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #264 on: March 15, 2018, 03:29:20 AM »
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You have a good point and observation. I believe that maybe there was more than one gunman but at the same time no one has proof of that and people heard the shots from the building that Oswald was in. But I believe Oswald was only a decoy. Take a look at this article before I say any more to make my point. I have more evidence as well. Skip down to where it talks about the assassination with Kennedy. There is fingerprint evidence mentioned in this article as well.

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwallaceM.htm

The Mac Wallace myth
From Faustian Bargains
by Joan Mellen

JFKFacts
October 12, 2016

[Excerpt]

Fingerprint

Mellen?s biggest service is to revisit the story of an unidentified fingerprint found on a box on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Numerous JFK researchers have repeated the claim that the fingerprint was that of Mac Wallace, an LBJ associate who apparently murdered a man whom he believed to have slept with his wife. As Mellen shows with a careful reconstruction of the case, Wallace escaped punishment for the crime thanks to legal machinations of Texas politicos aligned with LBJ. From these events arose the hoary legend that Mac Wallace had something to do with JFK?s assassination.

Mellen kills the legend. She points out that the two ?experts? who said that fingerprint came from Wallace were not certified identification experts at the time of their claims. They also used a faulty image of the fingerprint. She notes that the JFK authors who repeated the story of the Mac Wallace fingerprint often used identical language without ever bothering verify the claim.

By contrast, Mellen did the due diligence. She obtained a quality fingerprint image from the National Archives and showed it to an accredited expert, Robert Garrett, without disclosing the issue at stake. Garrett stated, without qualification, that the fingerprint does not match Wallace?s. Mellen reproduces his methodology. The Mac Wallace fingerprint myth has now been definitively debunked.

 
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 03:42:57 AM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #264 on: March 15, 2018, 03:29:20 AM »


Offline Alice Thorton

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #265 on: March 15, 2018, 03:58:02 AM »
What year did this person "debunk" the evidence because in 1998 an investigator by the name of Walt Brown identified it as Wallace's and he was a real investigator.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #266 on: March 15, 2018, 04:13:29 AM »
I agree.  The case against Oswald needs to prove that he did the shooting.

Why would you venture to say that?  Just because you think he did?  You have to actually examine the evidentiary basis for that conclusion and you're left with an unscientific handwriting "analysis" of a couple of block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order coupon and an "order blank" printed from microfilm that is now "missing" showing a PO box box number that Oswald had access to with a serial number handwritten on the form at some indeterminate time.  And a photo with a rifle that (despite what Mytton claims) cannot be proven to be be the same rifle.

Evidence?  Sure.  Evidence beyond a reasonable doubt?  Hardly.  But even if it was, you've already pointed out the problem.  Showing that somebody owned a gun doesn't tell you anything about who fired it at the president.
Well, ownership is relevant because it connects Oswald to the murder weapon. A jury does not have to find he owned it beyond a reasonable doubt to conclude that he owned the gun. They only have to find beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed the murder.  They could conclude that he likely owned the gun and use that as one of the many pieces of evidence connecting Oswald to the murder to ultimately find, beyond a reasonable doubt, Oswald guilty. 

The ownership of the gun comes from many different sources and circumstances. Marina admitted that Oswald purchased a rifle at about the same time as the purchase from Klein's by "Hidell" and that he had told her that he used the rifle to shoot at Gen. Walker.  She said the rifle was kept in the garage in a blanket.  The rifle was not there after the assassination. No other rifle belonging to Oswald has ever been found.   The rifle had Oswald's palm print on the stock. His prints were on the paper bag found in the SN.  Marina admitted taking the backyard photo of Oswald with the rifle. Oswald was seen taking a long paper package that he told Buell Frazier contained curtain rods.  No curtain rods were ever found, of course. Oswald denied telling Frazier this and said he took his lunch.  A jury might have little difficulty concluding that was not a lunch bag and that it did not contain curtain rods. 

On all the evidence, it is difficult to fathom how any group of 12 reasonable people could, at the end of the day, find that Oswald was not tied to that rifle found in the TSBD.

Finding Oswald guilty of murder requires more than that, of course. But there is ample evidence simply from Oswald's conduct after the assassination adding to the strong circumstantial link to the rifle. All the evidence, together, is more than enough to establish Oswald's involvement beyond a reasonable doubt. The similar fact evidence from Marina of the attempt on Gen. Walker, is just icing on the cake.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 03:06:38 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #266 on: March 15, 2018, 04:13:29 AM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #267 on: March 15, 2018, 04:15:06 AM »
What year did this person "debunk" the evidence because in 1998 an investigator by the name of Walt Brown identified it as Wallace's and he was a real investigator.

Mac Wallace

The myth of Wallace being one of the shooters of Kennedy persists. Conspiracy theorist Walt Brown, the editor of the substantive JFK/Deep Politics Quarterly, claimed, in a May 29, 1998, press conference at the Conspiracy Museum in Dallas and in the October 2001 edition of his publication, that a latent print examiner from Texas, Nathan Darby, was furnished with a copy of the only latent print found on the cardboard cartons inside the sniper?s nest that was never identified,54? as well as the 1951 fingerprint card for Wallace following his arrest for the murder of John Kinser, and that the expert made a positive match, finding fourteen points of identification. (Recall that our boy Loy Factor put Wallace several windows to the west of the sniper?s nest.) According to Darby?s March 9, 1998, affidavit, the match was of ?the left little finger.?55

On November 20, 2001, I spoke over the telephone with Darby. Eighty-seven at the time, he told me he had been the head of the Austin, Texas, police department?s Identification and Criminal Records Section for several years. He had retired from the force and was still living in Austin. I told him I had trouble with his finding a ?match? between prints found at the sniper?s nest on the sixth floor and the fingerprint exemplar card of Malcolm Wallace. ?Why?? he asked. ?Because,? I pointed out, ?the unidentified latent print found on the sixth floor was a palm print, not a fingerprint, and unless you?ve come up with something new, I?ve never heard of anyone matching a palm print with a fingerprint.? Darby, sensing he had been taken, told me that he had been given ?two fingerprints, one from a card, the other a latent. It was all blind. I didn?t know and wasn?t told who they belonged to (it was much later, he said, that he heard Malcolm Wallace?s name mentioned), although I recognized the layout of the card (he said all identifying features had been blacked out) as that of the Texas Department of Public Safety. I wasn?t given any palm print. They were both fingerprints. Of course, you can?t compare a palm print with a fingerprint.?

Bugliosi, Vincent (2007-05-17). Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy (Kindle Locations 25490-25506). Norton. Kindle Edition.

Offline Alice Thorton

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #268 on: March 15, 2018, 12:46:35 PM »
So this is pretty much saying that it was a palm print found and not a fingerprint then? That's why they couldn't confirm if it was Wallace's?

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #268 on: March 15, 2018, 12:46:35 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #269 on: March 15, 2018, 05:59:59 PM »
By contrast, Mellen did the due diligence. She obtained a quality fingerprint image from the National Archives and showed it to an accredited expert, Robert Garrett, without disclosing the issue at stake. Garrett stated, without qualification, that the fingerprint does not match Wallace?s. Mellen reproduces his methodology. The Mac Wallace fingerprint myth has now been definitively debunked.

So whose print was it then?  Does anyone care?

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #270 on: March 15, 2018, 06:14:01 PM »
Well, ownership is relevant because it connects Oswald to the murder weapon. A jury does not have to find he owned it beyond a reasonable doubt to conclude that he owned the gun. They only have to find beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed the murder.  They could conclude that he likely owned the gun and use that as one of the many pieces of evidence connecting Oswald to the murder to ultimately find, beyond a reasonable doubt, Oswald guilty. 

First of all, there's no proof that this was the murder weapon.  At best you can show that it was the weapon that fired the shells allegedly found on the 6th floor, and (if you buy Frazier's "lining up the marks in his mind" technique) the weapon that fired the mutilated fragments allegedly found in the limo and the near pristine bullet allegedly found on an unrelated stretcher at Parkland Hospital.

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The ownership of the gun comes from many different sources and circumstances. Marina admitted that Oswald purchased a rifle at about the same time as the purchase from Klein's by "Hidell" and that he had told her that he used the rifle to shoot at Gen. Walker.

It's not enough to show that Oswald had some rifle.

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She said the rifle was kept in the garage in a blanket.

She saw part of a wooden stock that she took to be a rifle about 6 weeks before the assassination.

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  The rifle was not there after the assassination. No other rifle belonging to Oswald has ever been found.

You can't just assume that particular rifle was Oswald's because you didn't find any other one.

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   The rifle had Oswald's palm print on the stock.

No it didn't.  A partial palm print was found a week later on an index card that was claimed to have been lifted from the barrel.

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His prints were on the paper bag found in the SN.

There's no evidence that that bag ever had anything to do with any rifle.  Or that it was even in the SN when it was first discovered.

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  Marina admitted taking the backyard photo of Oswald with the rifle.

With some rifle.

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Oswald was seen taking a long paper package that he told Buell Frazier contained curtain rods.

A bag that both Frazier and Randle said was not the bag supposedly found in the SN.

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  No curtain rods were ever found, of course. Oswald denied telling Frazier this and said he took his lunch.  A jury might have little difficulty concluding that was not a lunch bag and that it did not contain curtain rods.

A jury might have a lot of difficulty concluding that this was the CE 142 bag and that it ever contained a rifle.  Because there is no evidence to support that. 

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On all the evidence, it is difficult to fathom how any group of 12 reasonable people could, at the end of the day, find that Oswald was not tied to that rifle found in the TSBD.

The problem is that you're defining "reasonable people" as people who agree with your assumptions.

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Finding Oswald guilty of murder requires more than that, of course. But there is ample evidence simply from Oswald's conduct after the assassination adding to the strong circumstantial link to the rifle.

No, there really isn't.  No matter how Oswald had conducted himself, it would have been spun as the actions of a guilty person.

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All the evidence, together, is more than enough to establish Oswald's involvement beyond a reasonable doubt. The similar fact evidence from Marina of the attempt on Gen. Walker, is just icing on the cake.

I know you believe that, but what evidence is that based on?  Can you name a single piece of evidence, physical or circumstantial, that isn't questionable, arguable, impeachable, or tainted in some way?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 06:16:06 PM by John Iacoletti »

Offline Alice Thorton

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #271 on: March 15, 2018, 10:30:53 PM »
It was identified as Malcolm Wallace's fingerprint in 1998 by investigator Walt Brown.

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Re: A straight line
« Reply #271 on: March 15, 2018, 10:30:53 PM »