Buell's "off" day (aka: oh yeah)

[Martin Weidmann]

Mr. BALL. Looking at this part of the bag which has not been discolored does that appear similar to the color of the bag you saw Lee carrying that morning?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; it is a heavy type of wrapping paper.

Mr. BALL. What was he carrying?
Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me.

JohnM

The opinion of a witness who never got close enough to the bag to make such a determination. That's what you are going with?

[John Mytton]

The opinion of a witness who never got close enough to the bag to make such a determination. That's what you are going with?

How far away was Linnie Mae?

JohnM

[Colin Crow]

How far away was Linnie Mae?

JohnM

Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box.

So, it seems it was Adamcik who thought to ask LMR about Oswald sometime around 4pm or later. I wonder if he was aware of the existence of the wrapper from HQ. Seems logical for HQ to get the detectives to ask whether Ruth or Marina knew of Lee carrying a bag that morning.

Seems LMR said nothing about curtain rods to Adamcik......the same rods that were a such a hot topic of conversation between brother and sister the previous evening. She had obviously spoken to Buell after the assassination, Oswald was in custody, do you think they discussed Frazier's situation? Maybe a good time for Buell to visit that abusive step-father and develop something about a package that contained something long. But not something that could be so obviously a rifle. After all if Oswald didn’t bring it to the TSBD that morning who could have?

[John Mytton]

After all if Oswald didn’t bring it to the TSBD that morning who could have?

Huh?, it was only Oswald;

The rifle was his.
He had no alibi.
He immediately left and went berserk trying to get a ride.
He killed a cop.'
He tried to kill more cops.
He lied repeatedly during his interrogation.

The evidence is clear.

JohnM

[Colin Crow]

Huh?, it was only Oswald;

The rifle was his.
He had no alibi.
He immediately left and went berserk trying to get a ride.
He killed a cop.'
He tried to kill more cops.
He lied repeatedly during his interrogation.

The evidence is clear.

JohnM

John, you have the advantage of hindsight. Poor Linnie May did not. She knew nothing of Oswald’s rifle at that time. Only that her brother gave him a lift that morning and now he is accused as thePresidential assassin. Now a detective is questioning her about what she knows.

Maybe he asked her if Oswald carried a package.....seems reasonable. If she says no, will the cops think Wesley was involved in transporting a rifle. He had a .303, I believe one of those was mentioned early on. She's just been talking with her brother, he wasn’t involved, Oswald must have carried a long rifle shaped package, mustn’t he? Of course she saw him with a paper package or box.

[Richard Smith]

Indeed, but you missed the part where Frazier denied that CE142 was the bag he had seen Oswald carry.

At 11.30 pm on 11/22/63 Frazier was being polygraphed by DPD detective R.D. Lewis. During this session, Frazier was shown the paper bag that had been found at the TSBD, which at that time (except for the fact that it had been dusted in vain for prints at the TSBD) was still in its original state. Frazier could not identify the bag as the one he had seen Oswald carry, some 16 / 17 hours earlier and the polygraph did not register an anomaly.

According to a report by FBI agent Vincent Drain, dated December 1, 1963, the polygrapher R.D. Lewis stated that Frazier had told him that the "crickly brown paper sack" Oswald had carried did not resemble the ?home made heavy paper gun case? the DPD officers had shown him. Drain added that Lewis referred to the bag as "paper gun case" because the DPD is of the opinion the brown heavy paper was used by Oswald to carry the rifle into the building?.

A memo from FBI agent James Anderton to SAC Dallas, dated 11/29/63, reveals the desperation of Lt. Day after Frazier failed to identify the heavy bag found at the TSBD. Anderton writes that, according to Lt Day, Frazier described the bag Oswald had carried as "definitely a thin, flimsy sack like the one purchased in a dime store". The memo then goes on to say;

"Lt. Day states that he and other officers have surmised that Oswald, by dismantling the rifle, could have placed it in the thick brown sack folder over, and then placed the entire package in the flimsy paper sack"

Wow.  A polygraph does not work like a crystal ball discerning what actually happened.  At best, it measures whether an individual knows they are not telling the truth.  If Frazier honestly, but erroneously believed this wasn't the bag then he would be not be lying in his own mind even if he was wrong.  He would be mistaken but not lying because he would believe he was telling the truth.  That doesn't tell us that Oswald did not carry this bag but that Frazier didn't believe it was the same bag.  If I believe someone has blue eyes and given a polygraph and it turns out they have brown eyes, it would not register as a lie if I confirmed they had blue eyes.  That would not, however, change the actual facts.  The "desperation" here is your own and not that of the DPD who had enough evidence to convict Oswald a thousand times over. 

[Martin Weidmann]

Wow.  A polygraph does not work like a crystal ball discerning what actually happened.  At best, it measures whether an individual knows they are not telling the truth.  If Frazier honestly, but erroneously believed this wasn't the bag then he would be not be lying in his own mind even if he was wrong.  He would be mistaken but not lying because he would believe he was telling the truth.  That doesn't tell us that Oswald did not carry this bag but that Frazier didn't believe it was the same bag.  If I believe someone has blue eyes and given a polygraph and it turns out they have brown eyes, it would not register as a lie if I confirmed they had blue eyes.  That would not, however, change the actual facts.  The "desperation" here is your own and not that of the DPD who had enough evidence to convict Oswald a thousand times over.

A polygraph does not work like a crystal ball discerning what actually happened.

True, yet law enforcement still uses it as a way to put pressure on a person of interest.

If Frazier honestly, but erroneously believed this wasn't the bag then he would be not be lying in his own mind even if he was wrong.  He would be mistaken but not lying because he would believe he was telling the truth.

"If"? Fact is Frazier denied that the bag shown to him was the same as the one Oswald carried that morning and you have nothing but supposition to believe he was wrong.


That doesn't tell us that Oswald did not carry this bag but that Frazier didn't believe it was the same bag.

Indeed, witness testimony is always about what somebody believes he or she saw. It doesn't mean that their testimony is wrong.

That would not, however, change the actual facts.

It never does but then again neither does your selfserving speculation

 

[John Iacoletti]

If you can convince yourself that Buell Frazier isn’t a liar after seeing the evidence that I pointed out, then it isn’t surprising that you could convince yourself that there isn’t any evidence concerning the bag. But your weak excuses for denying the obvious are not convincing to me.

So basically you can't explain how you know that Frazier was "blatantly and intentionally lying" -- you just "know" it.