Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?  (Read 166429 times)

Offline Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3723
Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #736 on: March 23, 2020, 02:36:53 AM »
Advertisement
That's our Chapman.  Big on mouth, small on any knowledge about the case.
Buy him for what he's worth... then sell him for what he thinks he's worth... and split the profit with me :D

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #736 on: March 23, 2020, 02:36:53 AM »


Offline Bill Chapman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6506
Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #737 on: March 23, 2020, 02:42:21 AM »
Buy him for what he's worth... then sell him for what he thinks he's worth... and split the profit with me :D

Not on my bucket list. BTW, did you take a knee at Oswald's gravesite as well, big fella?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 02:52:47 AM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Mike Orr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #738 on: March 24, 2020, 07:59:06 PM »
IMO , Malcolm Wallace hid the rifle way before the JFK and his limo even got close to Dealy Plaza ! That put Wallace and the spotter and Loy Factor on the 6th floor !

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #738 on: March 24, 2020, 07:59:06 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7322
Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #739 on: March 25, 2020, 12:44:48 AM »
IMO , Malcolm Wallace hid the rifle way before the JFK and his limo even got close to Dealy Plaza ! That put Wallace and the spotter and Loy Factor on the 6th floor !

Your theory and opinion is as good as anybody's.....   Because I doubt that we will ever learn WHO hid that carcano beneath the pallet of boxes.  There can be no serious argument that the rifle was not hidden beneath those boxes of books BEFORE the shooting.   Any person who is honest with himself will acknowledge that the rifle could not have been hidden as it was After the shooting( The rifle was on the floor beneath the pallet of heavy boxes of books that were stacked so high that a 5'9 inch man's arm is not long enough to reach the floor)     

Offline Tom Scully

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1216
Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #740 on: March 26, 2020, 05:33:09 AM »
Anybody want to attempt to explain why Fleda Ryder Bowen Mantooth's brother, Dial Ryder, and her former husband Jack Bowen, father of their son, wanted the public to believe Oswald just happened to present "his rifle" to both of them? Doesn't seem to fit the "lone nut" narrative, but more like conspiring of a felon or two, to plant or to cement a narrative? Below, it is established Jack Bowen, AKA John Cesar Grossi, was on good terms with both Dial Ryder's brother-in-law, felon Roy Mantooth, and with Mantooth's brother, "Robert Lee Mantooth" but Roy Mantooth was reported to use the name "Robert Lee Mantooth" as an alias.

An entry on this page describes John Cesar Grossi's arrest for impersonation of a US Navy officer in Detroit in 1946, a curious fete for a then teenager!
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137474&search=robert#relPageId=27&tab=page

James Herbert Martin, was assigned by the SS to shelter Marina Oswald despite his felony record of deserting the US Navy in Detroit followed by a car theft then transported through several states....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217811&relPageId=688&search=martin_and%20navy%20and%201945

Martin stated "Government Agents had already conducted a background check on him and propositioned him to allow Marina and her two children to live with him in his home."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=97748&relPageId=5

Quote
Both 1930 and 1940 US Census records for Martin's family, parents Hebert John and Gertrude Martin, (brother Robert in 1940 census) inidicate James Herbert Martin's age as 3 and 13, (born no earlier than in 1926.) Yet his birthdate in the FBI's arrest report is 6 October, 1925:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=71119&relPageId=14

Martin's US Navy enlistment date was 1 Oct., 1943, he may have been 5 days shy of his 17th birthday on that date.:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=71119&relPageId=15

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=71122&relPageId=8
Martin received a bad conduct discharge from the US Navy on 2 March, 1945, as a result of being A.W.O.L. and charged with crimes described below.:

June, 1945, James Herbert Martin sentenced to one year suspended and two years probation for interstate auto theft:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=71123&relPageId=3

James Herbert Martin's probation was extended two years until 1950.:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=71128&relPageId=3

Edward Jay Epstein never seemed to discover Dial Ryder's nephew was the son of Jack Bowen or that Bowen was later arrested while representing he was Mantooth!

Link: Page 209


Quote
Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald - Part 2 - Page 316books.google.com › books
Edward Jay Epstein - 1978 - ‎Snippet view
FOUND INSIDE - PAGE 316
The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald Edward Jay Epstein. Alexandra Taylor, George and ... The lack of security is corroborated by other former employees, including Dennis Ofstein and Jack Bowen. Robert Stovall, the president of the ...

its the misaligned scope that really bugs me.

If its a rifle ordered by conspirators, mimicking Oswalds handwriting, and sent to his P.0.Box, and they picked it up, they would have had plenty time to practice with rifle, make sure scope IS aligned, if its a defective or cheap scope, they could have replaced it with better quality scope.

Better yet, why not just order a better quality rifle all together, maybe even a semi auto, and make THAT rifle seem like it was Oswalds rifle? It would have been a LOT easier than having use a 2nd gunman cause the MC rifle bolt tends to stick and the scope doesn't hold its zero, thus requiring using iron sights instead.


So this seems to lead to the  following alternatives:

1. Oswald actually ordered the cheap MC rifle and the scope WAS poor quality and very well may have been misaligned severely if Oswald purposely left out a shim required to adjust the mount. If the conspirators stole the rifle the night before, either from Paines garage, or Oswalds boarding house, they would not likely know how bad the scope drifted or how it could not be adjusted without the  shim. They didn't have time to practice with the rifle either. This would  probably have required having at least a 2nd shooter with better rifle to make sure get the kill shot, should the conspirator using the MC rifle be unable to do so.

2. Some other MC rifle was quickly found within about 50 minutes after the shooting, and was placed in the boxes because NO rifle was found on the 6th floor. Where the conspirators could get an MC rifle so quickly is the question. Possibly General Walker had a surplus supply of MC rifles or CIA had some in storage. The rifle was planted after the fact, once it became known that Oswald was a missing employee and this particular employee was none other than the notorious defector Marine the FBI had already been keeping surveillance on. Hoover Memo directive then guides the further focus on selecting Oswald as the lone nut and no other conspirators involved.

3. Oswald is one of the shooters if not the only shooter, and purposely left the scope misaligned, having practiced using irons sights zeroed at 200 meters, knowing how to adjust for closer targets at 50 to 100 meters distant.
\ He left the rifle on the 6th floor, figuring once its found, because of the poor quality scope misalinged, it would be easy to argue it was a setup if they did trace rifle to himself. (which he may have thought they could not).

4. Oswald is a partial involved dupe, and brought his MC rifle into TSBD on Friday Nov 22/63  to give or sell to someone else, who then went up to 6th floor to use it to shoot JFK, and left it there to frame Oswald.

Try embracing more of the details and maybe you'll understand and then agree the body of facts indicates the mystery was designed to
be confusing to the point of nonsensical or the pertinent facts are impossible to glean because they are shrouded in random coincidence, no matter how unlikely it seems to theorists familiar with the Warren Report details, HSCA, ARRB, and the half century of journalism,
independent research published or presented online. Those with little familiarity of the details beyond viewing JFK the movie may be even
more resistant to the irrelevance coincidence can make of over emphasized facts.

I cannot tell for sure what is or is not random coincidence or deliberate distraction planted by conspirators, which witnesses were honest
and accurate enough to have given relevant testimony of "you can take that to the bank" reliability, or which LEO were sincerely doing job related assassination investigation vs obstructing or participating by helping to position Ruby in the DPD garage basement.

This leaves the most reliable alternative, keep digging so at the least you'll gain awareness of what you don't yet know but might
learn the right questions to ask. Even coming up with influential proof a long accepted explanation for an early controversy is inaccurate cpuld
be considered further progress.

You began your post by mentioning the useless state of the scope found mounted on the alleged rifle assassination rifle. Researchers tend
to underemphasize what cannot be explained....why talk about it if it seems to make no sense or seems indecipherable.

In response to the Assassination of JFK, as in the aftermath of 9/11, responders expect to receive reports of claims by emotionally disturbed
individuals some sincere but delusional and others who lie related with behavorial disorder. The call from Ralph Yates reporting an encounter with a curtain rods wielding hitchhiker with an alleged focus on shooting a rifle from a tall building shortly before the assassination and in the vicinity of the TSBD seems likely an example of delusion of a crank caller. My research reveals Yates's birth mother, Bernice Gordon, and
Ralph's father Jimmie Yates experienced the sudden death of Ralph's two year old brother shortly after Bernice became pregnant with Ralph.
The maariage did not survive and Ralph ended up living with his father who soon remarried.
In addition, there was a series of adults of Ralph's family, according to testimony of family members, challenged by E.D. and or mental illness.
Ralph happened to deteriorate to the point he was referred through Parkland Hospital emergency department for immediate confinement in a
local mental hospital (Rusk State Hospital where he remained until his 1975 death, diagnosed with "schizophrenia, paranoid type".

Dial Ryder also made a call to assassination responders... his call connects him to a curio dominant in the investigation, seemingly useless
or easily determined to faked ID cards alleged found by LEO in Oswald's wallet(s).

Is this seeing the forest for the trees? Why instead, was a more thorough background check of Dial Ryder not conducted?
Quote
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=388&search=ryder%20and%20scope
Wesley Liebeler vs. the Warren Commission
by: Griffith, Michael T.
JFK Assassination Web Page: jfk.miketgriffith.com

The Repair Tag

b. I think the degree of doubt about the authenticity of the repair tag is overstated. (11 HSCA 235; 9/14/64 memo)

To go back for a moment to the second rifle section: In the third full paragraph it states, "On November 24, Ryder and Greener discussed at length the possibility" that Oswald had been there, but "Ryder did not mention the tag to his employer." I know of no evidence that Ryder and Greener talked on the 24th.

If they did not, the next sentence must be changed or cut.

The next sentence is a good example of what happens in the "rewrite" process. It says incorrectly, that on November 25 Ryder told the FBI that Greener did not remember the tag, although he had not called the tag to Greener's attention. The original sentence said, correctly, that Greener "did not remember the transaction represented by the repair tag..."

The next sentence says the FBI was directed to Ryder by anonymous phone calls. Not so. They were directed to the Irving Sports Shop and would very likely have talked to Greener, but he could not be found by the agent on November 25, 1963, when he went to the shop. (11 HSCA 236; 9/14/64 memo)


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=45&search=ryder_and+scope#relPageId=238&tab=page


Remember this?


The FBI or even WC or HSCA had all of the details necessary to learn Bowen/Grossi's son, Glen was Dial Ryder's nephew...
Fleda Ryder married Bowen who was using an alias even on his son Glen's birth certificate. Fleda divorced Bowen and then
married Mantooth, an ex-con who had served time in federal prison for burglarizing post offices for cash, postal money order
blanks and the machines printing and key punching the amount of each money order.

In 1969, Bowen stole a travel trailer in Oregon and towed it to Texas where Roy Mantooth was investigated for possessing it.



Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Eatherly#Later_life
Claude Robert Eatherly (October 2, 1918 – July 1, 1978) was an officer in the U.S. Army Air Forces during World War II, and the pilot of a weather reconnaissance aircraft Straight Flush that supported the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan, August 6, 1945.....
....Later Life
...Eatherly claimed to have become horrified by his participation in the Hiroshima bombing, and hopeless at the possibility of repenting for or earning forgiveness for willfully extinguishing so many lives and causing so much pain. He tried speaking out with pacifist groups, sending parts of his paycheck to Hiroshima, writing letters of apology, and once or twice may have attempted suicide. At one point "he set out to try to discredit the popular myth of the war hero [by] committing petty crimes from which he derived no benefit: he was tried for various forgeries and forged a check for a small amount and contributed the money to a fund for the children of Hiroshima. He held up banks and broke into post offices without ever taking anything."[2][page needed] He was convicted of forgery in New Orleans, Louisiana and served one year between 1954 and 1955 for the crime. He was also convicted of breaking and entering in West Texas. He then became a salesman in a garage and might have attempted suicide again by drug. In 1959 he avoided prosecution for robbery by entering the Veterans Administration Hospital in Waco, Texas for many months.[3] Some think he committed antisocial acts because of schizophrenia or anxiety disorder.[citation needed]..

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137474&relPageId=58&search=bowen_and fleda


Quote
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/29053767/fleta-l_-mantooth
   14 Aug 2008 (aged 85)
Olney, Young County, Texas, USA
BURIAL   Restland Cemetery
Olney, Young County, Texas, USA
Fleta was the daughter of Homer Richard and Magdalena Jeanetta (Baehr) Ryder and raised with one brother and six sisters. She married Roy Lee Mantooth December 13, 1963, in Albany, Texas. He preceded her in death on March 10, 1979.
......
At time of death she was survived by one son, Glenn Lewis Mantooth and wife, Nicole of Abilene, Texas; two daughters, Dixie Kirby and husband DeWayne of Olney, Texas and Gypsie Fomby and husband Dale of Clyde, Texas; one brother, Dial Ryder of Irving, Texas; four sisters, Magdelene Beanblossom of Decatur, Illinois, Iseaphene Kutz of Olney, Illinois, Marcella Farrar of Poteau, Oklahoma and Velma Douglas of Killeen, Texas.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?givenname=glenn&surname=bowen&birth_place=texas&birth_year_from=1954&birth_year_to=1956&mother_surname=ryder&count=20


Quote
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/63051718/roy-lee-mantooth
Roy Lee Mantooth
BIRTH   14 Feb 1922
DEATH   10 Mar 1979 (aged 57)
BURIAL   Abilene Municipal Cemetery
Abilene, Taylor County, Texas, USA....



https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137474&search=grossi_and+mantooth#relPageId=39&tab=page


More background:
Quote
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137390&relPageId=16&search=mantooth_and grossi
2. No Title, pg 16

Found in: FBI - HSCA Subject File: John Caesar Grossi

ROY LEE MANTOOTH, and lives at 307 East Casom, but is out of town. Attempts were made to locate and contact FLEDA MANTOOTH, with negative results.
ROSE GROSSI, is supposed to be confined at a state mental hospital located in New Jersey, city unknown to her. Mrs.
RYDER and FLEDA MANTOOTH. AT BORGER, TEXAS The following investigation was conducted by SA GARY S.

3. No Title, pg 6
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=69900&relPageId=6&search=mantooth_and grossi
Found in: FBI - HSCA Subject File: John Caesar Grossi

.: 88.40913 JOHN CESAR GROSSI Charader".
FLEDA MANTOOTH with negative results. On December 16, 1964, Mrs.
MANTOOTH again promised complete cooperation with the FBI and the provisions of the Harboring Statute were explained again to her.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 06:47:59 AM by Tom Scully »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #740 on: March 26, 2020, 05:33:09 AM »


Offline Izraul Hidashi

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #741 on: March 26, 2020, 06:38:19 AM »
@ Tom Scully

Quote: "The call from Ralph Yates reporting an encounter with a curtain rods wielding hitchhiker with an alleged focus on shooting a rifle from a tall building shortly before the assassination and in the vicinity of the TSBD seems likely an example of delusion of a crank caller. My research reveals Yates's birth mother, Bernice Gordon, and
Ralph's father Jimmie Yates experienced the sudden death of Ralph's two year old brother shortly after Bernice became pregnant with Ralph."

That's interesting. Did your research also reveal that Ralph Yates told his co-workers about the incident when he returned to work that day? Why would he make that up? More importantly, how would he have known about the curtain rods 2 days before the curtain rod thing supposedly happened? And how long after the incident did it take before the story of curtain rods reached the public? I don't think the curtain rod story came out before he reported.

Doesn't it seem highly unlikely that Ralph Yates could make something up like out of the blue 2 days before it actually happens? And when Yates saw the photo of Oswald he never said it was him. He said Oswald looked identical to the hitchhiker he picked up.

Those are important facts. What are the chances he made all that up when Oswald was clearly being framed? Somehow Oswald orders a 36inch 5 1/2lb slightly used rifle, and yet the one found was 40.02 inches, 8lbs and barely usable. And there's clearly 2 different rifles with the same serial number being used to frame him.

If you look at this photo, you can see one of the serial numbers was changed. Why would anyone do that? To frame him of course. And if people were trying to frame him, what are the chances that Ralph Yates story was true?



https://photos.app.goo.gl/xmiRYtvHccU9v8EB9
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 09:41:42 PM by Izraul Hidashi »

Online Gerry Down

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #742 on: April 01, 2020, 02:37:49 AM »
Ralph Yates is probably the best evidence that Frazier was right about the length of the package (that it was 27 inches) Oswald had on the morning of Nov 22nd 1963.

Yates is saying that Oswald brought the rifle in well before Nov 22nd.

Its not an entirely implausible scenario.

Offline Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3723
Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #743 on: April 01, 2020, 05:58:30 AM »
Go back a couple of pages....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57760&search=yates_and+uncle#relPageId=144&tab=page
Ralph changed his story and from then on was all over the place with his report.
Also Mr Yates earlier had described a package that was four feet long.
 
Quote
The assassination of President Kennedy continued to suck innocent people into its whirlwind. One was a man who was kind enough to pick up a hitchhiker in Dallas. He was then caught up in darkness for the rest of his life.

Ralph Leon Yates was a refrigeration mechanic for the Texas Butcher Supply Company in Dallas, making his rounds to meat outlets on Wednesday, November 20, 1963. At 10:30 A.M. Ralph Yates was driving on the R. L. Thornton Expressway. He noticed a man hitchhiking in Oak Cliff near the Beckley Avenue entrance to the expressway. Yates stopped to pick up the man.

When the hitchhiker got into Yates’s pickup truck, he was carrying what Yates described later, in a statement to the FBI, as “a package wrapped in brown wrapping paper about "4 feet to 4˝ feet long.”

Yates told the man he could put the package in the back of the pickup. The man said the package had curtain rods in it, and he would rather carry it with him in the cab of the truck. 
Read the full story------
https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Unspeakable/TwoLHOs.html
At 10:30 AM on Wednesday Nov 20...Oswald was working his job at the TSBD. His time card proved it.
The Curtain Rod Story was not invented until the cops created it after the shots were fired.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #743 on: April 01, 2020, 05:58:30 AM »