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Author Topic: Oswald is the real assassin  (Read 13521 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2019, 05:15:43 PM »
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Not nearly as cute as you thinking you're his prosecution lawyer.

Which, in turn, isn't nearly as cute as you trying to inform everybody what witnessess really saw and really thought
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 05:17:51 PM by Bill Chapman »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2019, 05:15:43 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2019, 05:37:58 PM »
Which, in turn, isn't nearly as cute as you trying to inform everybody what witnessess really saw and really thought

Says the guy who informs everybody that Frazier lied about the length of the package to cover his ass.

Offline Thomas Halle

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2019, 09:55:12 PM »
Thanks, John. Yep, the standard in American jurisprudence is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" (a much higher "threshold" than "preponderance of evidence"), and the Burden of Proof does, indeed, lie with the Prosecution. In the Kennedy assassination case, the Prosecution (in the form of both Texas and Federal investigators, and--ultimately--in the form of the WC (in a kind of post mortem trial)) decided in 'a priori fashion that there was one, crazed killer, firing only THREE shots (from behind)(with no foreign involvement and no conspiracy). Like someone presenting a foolish "proof for the existence of God," the reasoning lies strongly along "Special Pleading" lines.

It is also very like the "SIGNATURE" behavior of members of a cult, who will provide a creed statement, then produce all kinds of "evidence," such as excerpts from scripture, or little parables in an attempt to bolster the "formula." This is the VERY antithesis of legitimate reasoning (as well as the scientific method and the principles of legit. criminal investigation). It is "backwards reasoning" and COMPLETELY and UTTERLY bogus. Put another way, the "default position" in this case should be that Mr. Oswald is innocent. Now let's see if the Prosecution can produce a case which "blows out of the water" this assumption. They are NEVER, EVER able to accomplish this. In fact, 'tis even worse than this in that all the other suspects were summarily released, there was ample manipulation of the evidence in this case (such as missing or altered photographic documentation, broken chains of possession, and impugned witness testimony) (and the sole suspect was denied "due process" (including legal representation)), and was never even properly arrested and indicted (for either Texas murder). Echoes from the Dreyfus case, anyone?

Finally, in this SNAFU of a case (a BLATANT 'burlesque of justice" with strong suggestion of duplicity on many fronts), Mr. Oswald was merely the "poor schnook" who was given the role of assigned perpetrator...the "schlemiel" who was to be the scapegoat, to put the case to bed...and assuage the fears of the traumatized American public.  ;D

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2019, 09:55:12 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2019, 10:35:03 PM »
Says the guy who informs everybody that Frazier lied about the length of the package to cover his ass.

No, I suggested that would be the smart move; not that he actively went ahead and did it.
Go ahead, cite your claim. And don't pull an O'Brian by truncating my sentences.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 10:36:19 PM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2019, 10:55:17 PM »
Thanks, John. Yep, the standard in American jurisprudence is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" (a much higher "threshold" than "preponderance of evidence"), and the Burden of Proof does, indeed, lie with the Prosecution. In the Kennedy assassination case, the Prosecution (in the form of both Texas and Federal investigators, and--ultimately--in the form of the WC (in a kind of post mortem trial)) decided in 'a priori fashion that there was one, crazed killer, firing only THREE shots (from behind)(with no foreign involvement and no conspiracy). Like someone presenting a foolish "proof for the existence of God," the reasoning lies strongly along "Special Pleading" lines.

It is also very like the "SIGNATURE" behavior of members of a cult, who will provide a creed statement, then produce all kinds of "evidence," such as excerpts from scripture, or little parables in an attempt to bolster the "formula." This is the VERY antithesis of legitimate reasoning (as well as the scientific method and the principles of legit. criminal investigation). It is "backwards reasoning" and COMPLETELY and UTTERLY bogus. Put another way, the "default position" in this case should be that Mr. Oswald is innocent. Now let's see if the Prosecution can produce a case which "blows out of the water" this assumption. They are NEVER, EVER able to accomplish this. In fact, 'tis even worse than this in that all the other suspects were summarily released, there was ample manipulation of the evidence in this case (such as missing or altered photographic documentation, broken chains of possession, and impugned witness testimony) (and the sole suspect was denied "due process" (including legal representation)), and was never even properly arrested and indicted (for either Texas murder). Echoes from the Dreyfus case, anyone?

Finally, in this SNAFU of a case (a BLATANT 'burlesque of justice" with strong suggestion of duplicity on many fronts), Mr. Oswald was merely the "poor schnook" who was given the role of assigned perpetrator...the "schlemiel" who was to be the scapegoat, to put the case to bed...and assuage the fears of the traumatized American public.  ;D

Names of shooters and conspirators, anyone?
What, too soon?

Feel free to name anyone other than [your shooter] who knew there was going to an attempt made on Kennedy that day.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 11:01:07 PM by Bill Chapman »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2019, 10:55:17 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2019, 11:25:49 PM »
Thanks, John. Yep, the standard in American jurisprudence is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" (a much higher "threshold" than "preponderance of evidence"), and the Burden of Proof does, indeed, lie with the Prosecution.

Now define "reasonable".

Quote
In the Kennedy assassination case, the Prosecution (in the form of both Texas and Federal investigators, and--ultimately--in the form of the WC (in a kind of post mortem trial)) decided in 'a priori fashion that there was one, crazed killer, firing only THREE shots (from behind)(with no foreign involvement and no conspiracy). Like someone presenting a foolish "proof for the existence of God," the reasoning lies strongly along "Special Pleading" lines.

Hardly. They didn't just sit on the first-day evidence. The FBI conducted thousands of interviews. There was just no solid conspiracy leads.

Quote
Put another way, the "default position" in this case should be that Mr. Oswald is innocent.

Then it would be impossible to arrest anyone. Only the jury is instructed to assume innocence of the suspect; the rest of the world can assume anything they want. And unless you've invented mind-reading, we only have the jury members' word that they're honoring the presumption of innocence.

Quote
Now let's see if the Prosecution can produce a case which "blows out of the water" this assumption. They are NEVER, EVER able to accomplish this. In fact, 'tis even worse than this in that all the other suspects were summarily released, there was ample manipulation of the evidence in this case (such as missing or altered photographic documentation, broken chains of possession, and impugned witness testimony) (and the sole suspect was denied "due process" (including legal representation)), and was never even properly arrested and indicted (for either Texas murder). Echoes from the Dreyfus case, anyone?

Finally, in this SNAFU of a case (a BLATANT 'burlesque of justice" with strong suggestion of duplicity on many fronts), Mr. Oswald was merely the "poor schnook" who was given the role of assigned perpetrator...the "schlemiel" who was to be the scapegoat, to put the case to bed...and assuage the fears of the traumatized American public.  ;D

So Oswald would have been martyred in the courtroom through effusive emotionalism and farfetched suspicions of the Deep State?

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2019, 11:39:58 PM »
Now define "reasonable".

Hardly. They didn't just sit on the first-day evidence. The FBI conducted thousands of interviews. There was just no solid conspiracy leads.

Then it would be impossible to arrest anyone. ....

The "investigation" was, almost from the third shot, tainted by a foregone conclusion. Maybe that satisfies you, but....




https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=45&search=ryder_and+scope#relPageId=238&tab=page


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137474&relPageId=58&search=bowen_and


https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/29053767/fleta-l_-mantooth

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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/29053767/fleta-l_-mantooth
   14 Aug 2008 (aged 85)
Olney, Young County, Texas, USA
BURIAL   Restland Cemetery
Olney, Young County, Texas, USA
Fleta was the daughter of Homer Richard and Magdalena Jeanetta (Baehr) Ryder and raised with one brother and six sisters. She married Roy Lee Mantooth December 13, 1963, in Albany, Texas. He preceded her in death on March 10, 1979.
......
At time of death she was survived by one son, Glenn Lewis Mantooth and wife, Nicole of Abilene, Texas; two daughters, Dixie Kirby and husband DeWayne of Olney, Texas and Gypsie Fomby and husband Dale of Clyde, Texas; one brother, Dial Ryder of Irving, Texas; four sisters, Magdelene Beanblossom of Decatur, Illinois, Iseaphene Kutz of Olney, Illinois, Marcella Farrar of Poteau, Oklahoma and Velma Douglas of Killeen, Texas.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?givenname=glenn&surname=bowen&birth_place=texas&birth_year_from=1954&birth_year_to=1956&mother_surname=ryder&count=20


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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/63051718/roy-lee-mantooth
Roy Lee Mantooth
BIRTH   14 Feb 1922
DEATH   10 Mar 1979 (aged 57)
BURIAL   Abilene Municipal Cemetery
Abilene, Taylor County, Texas, USA....
....
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 11:44:31 PM by Tom Scully »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2019, 07:37:56 PM »
The "investigation" was, almost from the third shot, tainted by a foregone conclusion. Maybe that satisfies you, but....
....

I'll go with conspiracy to assassinate and cover-up if there was some concrete evidence of it. I have to go the LN way because--50 years on--it has provided what I consider reasonable evidence for the lone-assassin scenario.

I have a dim view of American exceptionalism, so I would not be bothered much if I could place stock in the conspiracy evidence.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2019, 07:37:56 PM »