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Author Topic: How Good Are People at Counting?  (Read 36736 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2018, 10:45:16 PM »
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Apparently not if you think McDonald said in that video that Oswald tried to shoot him.

Sorry, but "Oswald carrying his rifle to the crime scene in a brown paper bag" is the thing you're supposed to be proving.  You don't just get to state it as a given.  The reason I LOL is because you do that all the time.  "Oswald's gun bag", "Oswald's rifle', "Oswald's ammunition", ad nauseum.

Are you the same person who whined when somebody called him "Mutton"?



Those who can make coherent arguments do.  Those who cannot make up silly nicknames and try to change the subject.

The reason I LOL is because you do that all the time.  "Oswald's gun bag", "Oswald's rifle', "Oswald's ammunition", ad nauseum.

Will your 'random guy' be more acceptable?
How about 'Anyone But Oswald' ('RandomMan')?

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2018, 10:45:16 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2018, 10:56:44 PM »
Will your 'random guy' be more acceptable?

What do you mean my random guy?  I never said anything about a random guy.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2018, 11:42:28 PM »
What do you mean my random guy?  I never said anything about a random guy.

It was a description you used to describe Oswald in relation to the scene around the TT


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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2018, 11:42:28 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2018, 12:18:07 AM »


No. I make the assumption that the five did not all agree to lie in the same way.  Even if some or all of the five had talked to each other, it is unlikely they would enter into a conspiracy to lie, especially absent  some reason to lie about what they had seen.  It is much, much, much more likely that at least two of them actually recalled seeing what they said they saw.


No. I?m not assuming five decided to lie. I am postulating that one person was mistaken and influenced four others, before they could be interviewed.




I have never said that the what the majority thinks is a reliable method of determining what happened.  It is a matter of the statistical significance of specific observations by a number of observers.  What the majority thinks may or may not be statistically significant.

 It is not a matter of judgement. It is a matter of probability of independent observers reporting the same observation. That does not happen by random chance.



This is real helpful. To paraphrase what you are saying:

What the majority thinks may have happened is a matter of statistical significance. Except when it isn?t.



You can tell when the statistical method can be used using, what appears to me, by intuition. If the majority reports a certain shot pattern, but a minority reports a different pattern, you can tell, that in this case, the majority is right. But in the case of the gorilla film, if the majority reports no gorilla, but a minority reports a gorilla, you can tell, that in this case, the statistical method cannot be used, because the minority, in this case, are probably right.




It is not about intuition. It is about mathematics.  The majority of witnesses are rarely way off in their observations of salient facts.  Where large numbers of witnesses have been wrong is where their ability to observe or compare is limited and they are effectively giving opinions of what they observed rather than simple describing what they observed.  This is particularly so with respect to facial comparisons (eg. witness tries to identify a person that they do not know from a photo line) or a witness tries to compare a sound to something they have heard before.


It?s not about mathematics. It will only be mathematics if the witness errors are random. We cannot assume that.




Not true. Here is my analysis of all the witnesses who observed the limo. 8 said it stopped. Most said it slowed or almost stopped.  This is more an illustration of witnesses who were not in a good position to observe whether it actually stopped providing an inference rather than an actual observation.


The bottom line is, using the statistical method to determine the approximate ?Speed of the Limousine? using witnesses fails. We would not know this is we did not have the films of the assassination.

As you acknowledge, the statistical method fails in this case. Probably, indeed, because most witnesses were not in a clear position to see the limousine, only the follow up cars which did (probably) stop. But that did not prevent them from giving a confident opinion. Something we should remember about with the ?Spacing of the Shots? witnesses.

This is a classic case as to why we cannot rely on the statistical method. Because the errors witnesses made were not random. We cannot assume these errors are always going to be random. Which is what we need if the statistical method is going to be dependable.



Could the ?Shot Spacing? witnesses be an example of widespread witness error, non-random witness error, just like the ?Speed of the Limousine? witnesses? Easily. Below is a possible theory:


Most witnesses were distracted. Concentrating on the President and the First Lady. They may have ignored, possibly forgot what they assumed were backfires or firecrackers. When the realized shots were fired, they may have remembered the more recent shots better than the first. Hence:

First shot: Had forgotten about 15 seconds later, it never really got stored in their permanent memory.

Second shot: Remembered, but not very well.

Third shot: Remembered it very well, as a ?Crack-Thump?.

Hence, many may have remembered ?Bang <pause> Bang Bang?.

As I recall, some witnesses thought all the shots occurred in pairs, ?Bang Bang <pause> Bang Bang?.


My theory may be false. But we cannot assume it is false. There may have been not just significant but non-random witness errors, in the ?Shot Pattern? witnesses, just was there was in the ?Speed of the Limousine? witnesses.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2018, 12:22:58 AM »


Three (if that's what it was) loud noises became increasing "salient" as the sounds unfolded. The first few loud noises weren't "salient" to everyone. Some dismissed the first loud report as a backfire or firecracker. They were also in a distraction setting with peak concentration on the motorcade at the time of the first shot.

While it's true they could not fail to hear three shots (if there were, in fact, three shots), it doesn't mean it was stored in memory equally. For some of the witnesses, their perception and retention of initial events (some termed the first shot as a backfire or firecracker) could be affected by a greater concentration on the latter shots and things occurring visually up to and including the shock of the head shot and the dramatic Jackie/Clint potential tragedy.


This is correct. They may have a better memory of the previous 5 seconds, when they first realized that shots had been fired, than they did of 5 to 10 seconds earlier and worse yet for 10 to 15 seconds earlier. If certain events are not remembered within a few seconds, they may be, likely will be, forgotten altogether.


Spectators in the stands at the Boston Marathon Bombing barely react until the second bomb goes off.


Yes, an example of distracted witnesses becoming aware witnesses.

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2018, 12:22:58 AM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2018, 03:21:41 AM »
No. I?m not assuming five decided to lie. I am postulating that one person was mistaken and influenced four others, before they could be interviewed.
But if the 5 witnesses said that they saw a gorilla and, in fact, did not (and, of course, they would know they did not) they would be lying in saying that they saw one.  If they were truthful, they would say something like: "I don't remember but I think there may have been a gorilla because Bob told me".
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This is real helpful. To paraphrase what you are saying:

What the majority thinks may have happened is a matter of statistical significance. Except when it isn?t.
No. That is not what I am saying. If 51% said there were 3 shots and 49% said there were 4, I would not be able to conclude whether there were 3 or 4 shots.  I would conclude that witnesses had difficulty observing the number of shots and were confused by something. This is because 51-49 is not statistically significant.  Even 60-40 may not be enough, especially if the quality of the recollections was poor (eg. " I am not sure but I would say there were three, maybe four, no i think three"). You cannot simply draw conclusions based on what the majority observed.


Quote
You can tell when the statistical method can be used using, what appears to me, by intuition. If the majority reports a certain shot pattern, but a minority reports a different pattern, you can tell, that in this case, the majority is right. But in the case of the gorilla film, if the majority reports no gorilla, but a minority reports a gorilla, you can tell, that in this case, the statistical method cannot be used, because the minority, in this case, are probably right.
No. The point of the video is that most people are not observing anything other than the white players so if they noticed nothing, their failure to notice is not significant.  But for those who did notice, the similarity of their observations cannot be explained by anything other than 1. they saw the gorilla or 2. they were lying and colluding.


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It?s not about mathematics. It will only be mathematics if the witness errors are random. We cannot assume that.
Again: two possibilities: they saw a gorilla or they were colluding and lying about it.  If they were not colluding you can conclude that any errors would be random. 



Quote
The bottom line is, using the statistical method to determine the approximate ?Speed of the Limousine? using witnesses fails. We would not know this is we did not have the films of the assassination.

As you acknowledge, the statistical method fails in this case. Probably, indeed, because most witnesses were not in a clear position to see the limousine, only the follow up cars which did (probably) stop. But that did not prevent them from giving a confident opinion. Something we should remember about with the ?Spacing of the Shots? witnesses.
You can tell by the distribution of witnesses to the limo slowing down that the ability of many to observe whether it actually stopped was restricted. They saw the brake lights and a motorcycle stop (it actually did) and other cars in the motorcade ( not seen in the zfilm) may have actually stopped.  They formed the opinion that it stopped. This was an inference based on what they saw.  We can see this in some of the witnesses who initially said it stopped and then had to admit that they weren't sure it stopped, just that it slowed eg. Dallas police officer Earle Brown

Quote
This is a classic case as to why we cannot rely on the statistical method. Because the errors witnesses made were not random. We cannot assume these errors are always going to be random. Which is what we need if the statistical method is going to be dependable.
There are two possibilities: errors are random or they are caused by a common factor that induces the error (such as collusion/lying).  If the circumstances permit a possible explanation for error other than collusion/lying (such as the brake lights combined with slow speed combined with the motorcycle stopping and the officer getting off and giving people the same impression that the car had actually stopped) you can look at that.  But, invariably, in such cases you rarely get statistically significant distributions - as we see in the "limo stopped" witnesses.  There were 8 who said it stopped and 19 who said it slowed or that the motorcade stopped without specifying whether the limo stopped.  We can't be sure if any cars in the motorcade actually stopped but we certainly cannot say that none stopped.

Quote
Could the ?Shot Spacing? witnesses be an example of widespread witness error, non-random witness error, just like the ?Speed of the Limousine? witnesses? Easily. Below is a possible theory:


Most witnesses were distracted. Concentrating on the President and the First Lady. They may have ignored, possibly forgot what they assumed were backfires or firecrackers. When the realized shots were fired, they may have remembered the more recent shots better than the first. Hence:

First shot: Had forgotten about 15 seconds later, it never really got stored in their permanent memory.

Second shot: Remembered, but not very well.

Third shot: Remembered it very well, as a ?Crack-Thump?.

Hence, many may have remembered ?Bang <pause> Bang Bang?.

As I recall, some witnesses thought all the shots occurred in pairs, ?Bang Bang <pause> Bang Bang?.


My theory may be false. But we cannot assume it is false. There may have been not just significant but non-random witness errors, in the ?Shot Pattern? witnesses, just was there was in the ?Speed of the Limousine? witnesses.
The question is whether it is true.  The only way you can determine if it is a true theory is by comparing it to the evidence. Not a single witness said they had difficulty recalling the 1......2....3 shot pattern.  Ask Robert Jackson or Mary Woodward what the shot pattern was. They still remember it.  Ask them what they think of your theory.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 03:24:57 AM by Andrew Mason »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2018, 08:15:54 AM »
You haven't demonstrated that Oswald did anything with that revolver.

No, you state your conclusions as facts.

Says the guy who can't even show that a rifle was ever in that bag.

Those are conclusions based on your faulty characterization of the actual evidence.

That's hysterical.  Do you think anybody is going to buy that?

Take that up with Joseph "was there a number two man in there" Ball.

No, you state your conclusions as facts
>You state the facts as lies

Those are conclusions based on your faulty characterization of the actual evidence
>Your conclusions are cherry-picked misrepresentations of the facts.

That's hysterical. Do you think anybody is going to buy that?
>Do you think anyone is going to take seriously someone (you and Caprio) who claims the only reason the DPD converged on the TT was solely because a man was reported for being suspected of not buying a ticket?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 08:24:25 AM by Bill Chapman »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2018, 07:07:31 PM »
It was a description you used to describe Oswald in relation to the scene around the TT

I think you're confused.  Must be inattentional blindness.

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2018, 07:07:31 PM »