The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.

[Thomas Graves]

Last week Michael Clark posted a 1970s memo by Howard J. Osborn, former head of CIA's FBI-like Office of Security, in which he claimed that Yuri Nosenko, the "defector" who said in January 1964 that KGB had had nothing whatsoever to do with Oswald in the USSR, had greatly helped the CIA over the years.

At that time, I challenged Michael to post the name of anyone whom Nosenko had helped the CIA or FBI to "uncover" who: 1) wasn't already suspected, or 2) was still actively working for the KGB/GRU, or 3) still had access to classified material.

I'm still waiting for Michael's response.

Anyone care to help him?
-- MWT   

[Thomas Graves]

Last week A couple of months ago, Michael Clark posted a 1970s memo by Howard J. Osborn, former head of CIA's FBI-like Office of Security, in which he claimed that Yuri Nosenko, the "defector" who said in January 1964 that KGB had had nothing whatsoever to do with Oswald in the USSR, had greatly helped the CIA over the years.

At that time, I challenged Michael to post the name of anyone whom Nosenko had helped the CIA or FBI to "uncover" who: 1) wasn't already suspected, or 2) was still actively working for the KGB/GRU, or 3) still had access to classified material.

I'm still waiting for Michael's response.

Edit: I've already shot down Michael's John L. Hart-inspired profferings on the subject matter on my "Monster Plot" thread.

Anyone wanna try to help him?


Okay Michael, I'm gonna give you a little "help":

1) "Andrey," the sergeant-mechanic of cipher machines?

nope

2) The spy in the Orly courier center, Sergeant Robert Lee Johnson?

nope

3) Microphones in the American Embassy in Moscow?

Of course, but "nope"

4) An unnamed U.S. army captain in Germany?

Wowie Zowie, but ... but ... but ... which one of thousands, Yuri, old boy?

5) The Belitsky double agent case?

nope

6) William Vassall?

nope

Hmm, can anybody think of anyone else?

(LOL)

-- MWT 

PS  What do Tommy Mangold, et al., have to say about these tremendous "revelations" by Yuri Nosenko, the "defector" who claimed KGB didn't have anything to do with Marine Corps radar operator Lee Harvey Oswald during the two and one-half years he lived in the U.S.S.R., and who contradicted everything true defector Golitsyn was telling CIA?

PPS  The ironic thing is that CIA and the FBI and the CTer's bugbear, "MSM"  were so hoodwinked over the years by the likes of Nosenko, Kulak, Polyakov, Loginov, Yurchenko, Kochnov, et al., that the only places you'll find the truth on these characters is in Bagley's books and a few other places.

Wikipedia?

I'm afraid not.  (Not until I figure out how to edit about twenty of its articles, that is.)

Whoever wrote the Wikipedia entry on Nosenko is just as ignorant/"brainwashed" as Michael Clark, James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio, Jefferson "Intellectually Dishonest" Morley, et al., and 95% of the "students of the assassination" are on the subject ("Golitsyn vs. Nosenko" and Golitsyn's "Monster Plot" warnings, etc).

[Michael Clark]

Note: The original title of this thread, before Thomas edited it, was: Re: Standing Challenge To Michael Clark (Or Anyone Else Who Wants To Give It A Shot)

Thomas, did it occur to you that members may not appreciate being called-out in the title of your posts? Did it occur to you that doing-so is antagonistic and stupid?

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas, did it occur to you that members may not appreciate being called-out in the title of your posts? Did it occur to you that doing-so is antagonistic and stupid?

Dear Michael,

(Edited)

Did it occur to you to delete your misleading and ill-informed Howard J. Osborn's posts, or to at least try to think of one person Nosenko "helped" CIA or FBI to "uncover" who was: 1) not already suspected, 2) still working for the KGB/GRU, or 3) still had access to classified materials?

-- MWT 

[Michael Clark]

Note: The original title of this thread, before Thomas edited it, was: Re: Standing Challenge To Michael Clark (Or Anyone Else Who Wants To Give It A Shot)

Dear Michael,

Did it occur to you to delete your beloved Howard J. Osborn's brainwashed posts (him, not you, dear Michael), or to at least try to think of one person Nosenko "helped" CIA or FBI to "uncover" who was: 1) not already suspected, 2) still working for the KGB/GRU, or 3) still had access to classified materials?

-- MWT 

PS  I see Steve M. Galbraith is posting.

Will he hang around and actually respond to my reply to his greatly anticipated post?

Thomas, why would I delete my highly relevant Relevant posts documenting your Jesus-like, walks-on-water, going to save the world, savior, Pete Bagely’s denial of promotion and condemnation by his CIA superiors? I’ll have to post them here , later, for reference.

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas, why would I delete my highly relevant Relevant posts documenting your Jesus-like, walks-on-water, going to save the world, savior, Pete Bagely’s denial of promotion and condemnation by his CIA superiors? I’ll have to post them here , later, for reference.

Dear Michael,

1)  Highly relevant?  Osborn was duped by Nosenko (and KGB agents Loginov, Kochnov, and Kulak, et al.), and his own colleagues at CIA (Solie, McCoy, Hart, probable-mole Kisevalter, et al.), and by Mr. Gullible, himself -- J. Edgar Hoover) into believing that Nosenko was a true defector, and that he had been imprisoned and horribly tortured by Bagley.

LMFAO

2)  Please do try to get your facts straight, Michael. Osborn wasn't one of Bagley's superiors.

3)  Regardless, have you been able to reconcile, so that it will "fit in" snugly with your own paradigm, the fact that John Newman so firmly believed Bagley's assessment of Nosenko in Spy Wars and Spymaster that he was able to convince none other than Peter Dale Scott of same, i.e., that Nosenko was a false defector?

Hmm?

-- MWT 


PS  Here's another CIA guy who was taken in, Richards J. Heuer, Jr.

What a load of crap.

http://intellit.muskingum.edu/alpha_folder/H_folder/Heuer_on_NosenkoV1.pdf

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas, why would I delete my highly relevant (Harold J. Osborn) relevant posts documenting your Jesus-like, walks-on-water, going to save the world, savior, Pete Bagely’s denial of promotion and condemnation by his CIA superiors?

Dear Michael,

1)  Highly relevant?  Osborn was duped by Nosenko (and KGB agents Loginov, Kochnov, and Kulak, et al.), and his own colleagues at CIA (Solie, McCoy, Hart, probable-mole Kisevalter, et al.), and by Mr. Gullible, himself -- J. Edgar Hoover) into believing that Nosenko was a true defector, and that he had been imprisoned and horribly tortured by Bagley.

LMFAO

2)  Please do try to get your facts straight, Michael. Osborn wasn't one of Bagley's superiors.

3)  Regardless, have you been able to reconcile, so that it will "fit in" snugly with your own paradigm, the fact that John Newman so firmly believed Bagley's assessment of Nosenko in Spy Wars and Spymaster that he was able to convince none other than Peter Dale Scott of same, i.e., that Nosenko was a false defector?

Hmm?

-- MWT 


PS  Here's another CIA guy who was taken in, Richards J. Heuer, Jr.

What a load of crap.

http://intellit.muskingum.edu/alpha_folder/H_folder/Heuer_on_NosenkoV1.pdf

Dear Michael,

Does it bum you out that Tennent H. Bagley convinced Professor John M. Newman that Yuri Nosenko (the guy who swore up and down that the KGB had had nothing whatsoever to do with Marxist Marine Corps radar operator Lee Harvey Oswald during the two and one-half years he lived in the U.S.S.R.) was a false defector, and that Newman convinced Peter Dale Scott of same on March 3, 2018?

-- MWT   

[Michael Clark]

Note: The original title of this thread, before Thomas edited it, was: Re: Standing Challenge To Michael Clark (Or Anyone Else Who Wants To Give It A Shot)

Dear Michael,

1)  Highly relevant?  Osborn was duped by Nosenko (and KGB agents Loginov, Kochnov, and Kulak, et al.), and his own colleagues at CIA (Solie, McCoy, Hart, probable-mole Kisevalter, et al.), and by Mr. Gullible, himself -- J. Edgar Hoover) into believing that Nosenko was a true defector, and that he had been imprisoned and horribly tortured by Bagley.

LMFAO

2)  Please do try to get your facts straight, Michael. Osborn wasn't one of Bagley's superiors.

3)  Regardless, have you been able to reconcile, so that it will "fit in" snugly with your own paradigm, the fact that John Newman so firmly believed Bagley's assessment of Nosenko in Spy Wars and Spymaster that he was able to convince none other than Peter Dale Scott of same, i.e., that Nosenko was a false defector?

Hmm?

-- MWT 


PS  Here's another CIA guy who was taken in, Richards J. Heuer, Jr.

What a load of crap.

http://intellit.muskingum.edu/alpha_folder/H_folder/Heuer_on_NosenkoV1.pdf

 https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf


TOP SECRET

 13 October 1970

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD

Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington

#386 38

1) On Wednesday, 7 October 1970 I briefed Colonel L. K. White, Executive  Director-Controller on certain reservations I have concerning the proposed promotion of subject to a supergrade position.

 2)  I was very careful to explain to Colonel White at the outset that my reservations had nothing whatsoever to do with Bagely's security status. I explained that it was my conviction that Bagely was almost exclusively responsible for the manner in which the Nosenko case had been handled by our SR division. I said I considered that Bagely lacked objectivity and that he had displayed extremely poor judgment over a two year period in the handling of this case. Specifically as one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the SR division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this lead us to individuals who have confessed their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time.

3)  I explained further that Bagely displayed extremely poor judgment in the actions he took during that time that  Nosenko was incarcerated at ISOLATION. On many occasions, as the individual responsible for Nosenko's care, I refuse to condone Bagely's  instructions to my people who are guarding him. In one instance Bagely insisted that  Nosenko's food ration be reduced to black bread and water three times daily. After I had briefed Colonel White, he indicated that he would refresh the Director's memory on Bagely's role in the Nosenko case at the time he reviews supergrade promotions. 

Howard J. Osborn

Director of Security