A Better Sequence (TM DVP)

[John Iacoletti]

You really should see somebody about your obsession with men’s shorts.

[Colin Crow]

Givens appears to distinguish between his "coat" and his "jacket" in his responses.  For example, he indicates that he left a "raincoat" in the domino room that morning.  In fact, Belin uses the term "jacket" in that question but Givens responds with "raincoat".  And he retrieves his "coat" when he leaves for the day.  In response to questions about his trip to the 6th floor, however, he consistently references his "jacket."  Maybe that is the distinction.  He wore a raincoat to work that morning but also kept a jacket at work. I don't see that distinction as undermining his testimony.  And then there is this characterization that brings to mind the many witnesses that described Oswald as wearing a jacket after the assassination when he appears to have had on a long sleeve shirt:


Mr. BELIN. When you got off the elevator, as you were coming back up to get your shirt, did you have any occasion as you were walking out of the elevator to look to see if there was anyone else on the floor?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I wasn't thinking of that. I just happened to glance around as I was on my way back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.

I can see where you are coming from Richard. Certainly worth a considered response. Belin specifically mentioned “jacket”, as he was obviously aware of the significance that this will play later when Givens claimed collecting his jacket because his cigarettes were in the pocket. It seems the normal practice was to leave jackets, coats and hats in the domino room. Givens replied with raincoat. He did not say “I wore a jacket and coat”….simply raincoat. Belin asked if he hung his “coat” in the domino room and Givens simply confirms. As the jacket was central to the argument one would think that Belin should have clarified and then moved on.

[Colin Crow]

Of course we need to correct Vince. His statement that Brennan saw 3 men on the fifth floor is incorrect. Brennan only saw two, likely because we know Williams did not arrive to join the others until just shortly before the shots.

I would also point out that the idea that Williams had agreed with anyone to view the motorcade from the 6th floor that morning is an uncorroborated claim by Williams. Neither Lovelady or Arce were asked to confirm an any statement or testimony.

From "You are the Jury" by David Belin......

"Mr. Belin. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building ... outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?
The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?
Mr. Brennan. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.
The employee that Brennan immediately identified was Harold Norman. But he seemed to hesitate about the other, although he said that he thought
that it was James Jarman Jr. I deliberately tried to trip up Brennan:
Mr. Belin. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?
Mr. Brennan. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.
Mr. Belin. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?
Mr. Brennan. I believe it was him too. Am I right or wrong?
Mr. Ball. I don't know.
And at that time, neither Joe Ball nor I did know whether Brennan was right or wrong. The answer depended on the testimony of Harold Norman and James Jarman Jr."

I somehow doubt the truthfulness of Belin's last statement. Ball and Belin visited Dallas immediately before these testimonies. They spent considerable time with Williams, Norman and Jarman in reconstructing their movements in the TSBD.

[Colin Crow]

Please note that I have updated the original post with a sequence that I believe is supported by analysis of the accumulated evidence. Happy to have serious debate and modify where appropriate.

[Jerry Freeman]

  He wore a raincoat to work that morning but also kept a jacket at work. I don't see that distinction as undermining his testimony.   

Of course you wouldn't. But the phrase 'I also kept a jacket at work' was never used.

[Richard Smith]

I can see where you are coming from Richard. Certainly worth a considered response. Belin specifically mentioned “jacket”, as he was obviously aware of the significance that this will play later when Givens claimed collecting his jacket because his cigarettes were in the pocket. It seems the normal practice was to leave jackets, coats and hats in the domino room. Givens replied with raincoat. He did not say “I wore a jacket and coat”….simply raincoat. Belin asked if he hung his “coat” in the domino room and Givens simply confirms. As the jacket was central to the argument one would think that Belin should have clarified and then moved on.

No one can ever sort these details out with absolute certainty.  It is curious, however, that (I believe) in every reference to the 6th floor trip Givens calls it a "jacket" and in references to the domino room he calls it a "coat" or "raincoat" even when the question involves a "jacket."  He does that consistently.  It is possible that he wore a raincoat that morning but kept a jacket at work.  Maybe it was chilly in the building.  Who knows?  It is just a plausible explanation.  I just don't see that ambiguity undermining his entire testimony.  And if there was some frame up or lie going on involving Givens why would Belin seek specific clarification that he hung it in the domino room?  Why not just gloss over that?  Why even involve a jacket at all in a fake 6th floor story?  Why not just say he left his cigarettes on the 6th floor?  The jacket doesn't make much sense as part of a contrived story.  There is some piece of information missing like Givens kept a jacket or long work shirt that might be referred too as a jacket in the building.

[Richard Smith]

Of course you wouldn't. But the phrase 'I also kept a jacket at work' was never used.

Was he ever asked that question?  I just pointed out a plausible explanation based on his responses to the questions he was asked.  If we knew the answer with certainty, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Do you have some reason to believe he didn't keep a jacket at work?

[Colin Crow]

No one can ever sort these details out with absolute certainty.  It is curious, however, that (I believe) in every reference to the 6th floor trip Givens calls it a "jacket" and in references to the domino room he calls it a "coat" or "raincoat" even when the question involves a "jacket."  He does that consistently.  It is possible the he wore a raincoat that morning but kept a jacket at work.  Maybe it was chilly in the building.  Who knows?  It is just a plausible explanation.  I just don't see that ambiguity undermining his entire testimony.  And if there was some frame up or lie going on involving Givens why would Belin seek specific clarification that he hung it in the domino room?  Why not just gloss over that?  Why even involve a jacket at all in a fake 6th floor story?  Why not just say he left his cigarettes on the 6th floor?  The jacket doesn't make much sense as part of a contrived story.  There is some piece of information missing like Givens kept a jacket or long work shirt that might be referred too as a jacket in the building.

Thanks for your reply Richard. I think we would both agree it would have been preferable if Belin clarified the issue by asking if he wore a jacket upstairs that morning.

As for Givens, it was in this testimony, months after the event that he first mentioned the cigarette trip sighting of Oswald on the  sixth floor. His description of the event, particularly his position at the time and Oswald's makes it difficult to believe. He was interviewed on the day of the assassination and the following day. On that occasion the report stated he saw Oswald about 20 minutes after the elevator race, not on the sixth floor, but in the domino room reading a paper. In any event, his supposed sighting happened just a few minutes after the elevator race. Then Oswald was on the 5th floor, his appearance on the 6th floor would be followed by the Piper sighting at noon on the first floor.