A Better Sequence (TM DVP)

[John Iacoletti]

Brennan thought everybody was standing. He didn’t know how close the windows were to the floor.

But how could he know that the person he saw “taking aim for the final shot” (which would necessitate crouching behind and being almost completely obscured by boxes) was the same person he saw earlier “hanging out of the window” with no rifle? He probably just assumed it.

[Walt Cakebread]

Brennan thought everybody was standing. He didn’t know how close the windows were to the floor.

But how could he know that the person he saw “taking aim for the final shot” (which would necessitate crouching behind and being almost completely obscured by boxes) was the same person he saw earlier “hanging out of the window” with no rifle? He probably just assumed it.

But Brennan specifically said that he could see all of the upper body of the man....from his waist up.  Therefore the man had to have been standing immediately behind the window. Which would have been impossible if he was referring to the SE window because the boxes would have been in that area..... And  furthermore Brennan said the man who was STANDING was aiming the hi powered rifle (aka known as a hunting rifle) out of the window.   Since the SE window was only halfway open a standing man with a rile to his shoulder as needed to AIM the rifle could NOT stick the rifle barrel out of the window.   ( he would have needed to squat very low to get his shoulder and head low enough to aim a rife out of that Se corner window.   

Do you understand this, John?

[Alan Hardaker]

But does any of this prevent Oswald getting to the 6th, assembling the MC, taking up his position,and killing JFK..no. Rowlands claim that he saw a man with a high powered rifle in the west end og the 6th floor, at about 12.15.If that is true it follows that Williams goes down to the 5th before 12.15. Which in turn means Jarman & Norman are back on the 5th much earlier than the 12.25-12.28 timeslot.

The accuracy of these witnesses times or locations cannot be completely guaranteed. And no concoction or interpretation of their various comings and goings during the 11.45-12.30 timeslot can be pointed to to make any real claim that prevented a determined and cunning person from being on the 6th floor to carry out an assassination.

I believe that determined and cunning person was Oswald.Nothing in this thread disproves that possibility.

[Colin Crow]

But does any of this prevent Oswald getting to the 6th, assembling the MC, taking up his position,and killing JFK..no. Rowlands claim that he saw a man with a high powered rifle in the west end og the 6th floor, at about 12.15.If that is true it follows that Williams goes down to the 5th before 12.15. Which in turn means Jarman & Norman are back on the 5th much earlier than the 12.25-12.28 timeslot.

The accuracy of these witnesses times or locations cannot be completely guaranteed. And no concoction or interpretation of their various comings and goings during the 11.45-12.30 timeslot can be pointed to to make any real claim that prevented a determined and cunning person from being on the 6th floor to carry out an assassination.

I believe that determined and cunning person was Oswald.Nothing in this thread disproves that possibility.

Tell me how if Rowland's claim is true it follows that Williams descends before 12.15? Give me one piece of corroborated evidence that suggests this? Tell me why Jarman and Norman claimed Williams rode up with them to the 5th floor prior to their WC testimony.

Tell me why the first officers at the SN (Mooney, Hill, Craig etc) all reported the chicken lunch there and not near the two wheeler.

You are entitled to your beliefs.......I am not claiming it was not Oswald.....but I cannot ignore what the corroborated evidence implies.

Why did Williams need to change his story on numerous occasions prior to testifying?

Why do you need to impose a sequence that is not supported by any corroboration? In fact, Rowland's testimony confirms what the other evidence tells us. Williams was in the SN until about 12.25pm. Nothing disproves the assassin fired from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD. The consolidated evidence suggests he took up position just minutes before the motorcade passed.

You are entitled to believe the assassin was Oswald......that belief does not change what the sequence of other events clearly show. Even Ball and Belin knew Williams had to be on the 6th floor at the same time as the assassin. This is clear from Williams appearance before the WC.

[Alan Hardaker]

Tell me how if Rowland's claim is true it follows that Williams descends before 12.15? Give me one piece of corroborated evidence that suggests this? Tell me why Jarman and Norman claimed Williams rode up with them to the 5th floor prior to their WC testimony.

Tell me why the first officers at the SN (Mooney, Hill, Craig etc) all reported the chicken lunch there and not near the two wheeler.

You are entitled to your beliefs.......I am not claiming it was not Oswald.....but I cannot ignore what the corroborated evidence implies.

Why did Williams need to change his story on numerous occasions prior to testifying?

Why do you need to impose a sequence that is not supported by any corroboration? In fact, Rowland's testimony confirms what the other evidence tells us. Williams was in the SN until about 12.25pm. Nothing disproves the assassin fired from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD. The consolidated evidence suggests he took up position just minutes before the motorcade passed.

You are entitled to believe the assassin was Oswald......that belief does not change what the sequence of other events clearly show. Even Ball and Belin knew Williams had to be on the 6th floor at the same time as the assassin. This is clear from Williams appearance before the WC.

If Rowland sees a man with a highpowered rifle at "port arms"about 12.15 on 6th floor, it could be that gunman was looking at other windows to assess the shot. It follows that Williams must've left the 6th floor at this point, otherwise he would've seen Oswald. And Williams would, at this point be on the 5th or making his way to the 5th to meet up with the other two workers, Jarman & Norman. And if there's anything in that, it must be that Jarman & Norman arrived at the 5th floor on or slightly after 12.15

Arnold and his wife take note of a "black man hanging out of one of the southeast corner windows" That could easily have been Williams,Jarman or Norman on the 5th floor. I'm not sure why you mention the location of the remains of Williams lunch. He had ample time to eat his lunch and then go down to the 5th within the time frame I suggested.

If I was on the jury I would not be that surprised that some of the witness statements did show some level of inconsistencies.It's not easy to get everything in chronological order due to chaos and also some people have a better level of recall than others. I would only give consideration to inconsistencies if they was any significant difference in the evidence given by any witness statements.

It's a little bit disingenuous to say every opinion or every single sighting or incident that I or anybody else comments, on has to be corroborated.Do you apply that criteria to your own remarks?

[Colin Crow]

If Rowland sees a man with a highpowered rifle at "port arms"about 12.15 on 6th floor it could be that gunman was looking at other windows to assess the shot. It follows that Williams must've left the 6th floor at this point, otherwise he would've seen Oswald. And Williams would, at this point be on the 5th or making his way to the 5th to meet up with the other two workers, Jarman & Norman. And if there's anything in that it must be that Jarman & Norman arrived at the 5th floor on or slightly after 12.15

Arnold and his wife take note of a "black man hanging out of one of the southeast corner windows" That could easily have been Williams,Jarman or Norman on the 5th floor. I'm not sure why you mention the location of the remains of Williams lunch. He had ample time to eat his lunch and then go down to the 5th within the time frame I suggested.

If I was on the jury I would not be that surprised that some of the witness statements did show some level of inconsistencies.It's not easy to get everything in chronological order due to chaos and also some people have a better level of recall than others. I would only give consideration to inconsistencies if they was any significant difference in the evidence given by any witenesses

It's a little bit disingenuous to say every opinion or every single sighting or incident that I or anybody else comments on has to be corroborated.Do you apply that criteria to your own remarks?

The chicken lunch was in the SN

The following 9 officers who arrived at the SN prior to the arrival of Fritz all reported the components of the chicken lunch there;
Luke Mooney, Gerald Hill, AD McCurley, Eugene Boone, Harry Weatherford, Jack Faulkner, Roger Craig, Officer Brewer and Officer Haygood.

Jarman and Norman left the front of the TSBD at 12.22pm

Jarman's WC testimony...

Mr. BALL - Where did you stand?
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Norman's WC testimony....

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

The motorcade arrived at Main at 12.22pm. DPD Police transcripts.

Truly's testimony

Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly?
Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or shortly after, possibly 12:15.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?
Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right.
Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the best of your recollection.
Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe we just gradually moved out a bit.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

Brennan arrived at his position about 12.24. He noticed only two men on the 5th floor. That was because Williams had not yet joined them.

Rowland confirmed Williams was in the SN during his WC testimony

Mr. SPECTER - At about what time was it that you observed someone hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND - Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man.
Mr. SPECTER - You have marked the double window there. Would you draw the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.
Mr. SPECTER - At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; no one else on that floor.

Mr. ROWLAND - Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce I mean Main, and Ervay. I was looking back quite often, as I stated.

The motorcade passed Ervay about 12.25pm.
   
You have offered nothing to support your contention that "it follows" Williams has left the floor by 12.15pm. This is consistent with DVP's "better sequence"....better for the LN belief....but not consistent with the corroborated evidence....sorry. At least you have tried to engage which is more than can be said for the other WC supporters on the forum. The facts stand based on the evidence that was collected for the investigation.

[Alan Hardaker]

Thank you for your considered reply. Time is against me today but I'll try again later.

[Jack Nessan]

The chicken lunch was in the SN

The following 9 officers who arrived at the SN prior to the arrival of Fritz all reported the components of the chicken lunch there;
Luke Mooney, Gerald Hill, AD McCurley, Eugene Boone, Harry Weatherford, Jack Faulkner, Roger Craig, Officer Brewer and Officer Haygood.

Jarman and Norman left the front of the TSBD at 12.22pm

Jarman's WC testimony...

Mr. BALL - Where did you stand?
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Norman's WC testimony....

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

The motorcade arrived at Main at 12.22pm. DPD Police transcripts.

Truly's testimony

Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly?
Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or shortly after, possibly 12:15.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?
Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right.
Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the best of your recollection.
Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe we just gradually moved out a bit.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

Brennan arrived at his position about 12.24. He noticed only two men on the 5th floor. That was because Williams had not yet joined them.

Rowland confirmed Williams was in the SN during his WC testimony

Mr. SPECTER - At about what time was it that you observed someone hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND - Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man.
Mr. SPECTER - You have marked the double window there. Would you draw the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.
Mr. SPECTER - At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; no one else on that floor.

Mr. ROWLAND - Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce I mean Main, and Ervay. I was looking back quite often, as I stated.

The motorcade passed Ervay about 12.25pm.
   
You have offered nothing to support your contention that "it follows" Williams has left the floor by 12.15pm. This is consistent with DVP's "better sequence"....better for the LN belief....but not consistent with the corroborated evidence....sorry. At least you have tried to engage which is more than can be said for the other WC supporters on the forum. The facts stand based on the evidence that was collected for the investigation.

The answer to Ford’s question about returning to Dealey Plaza explains Arnold’s ever changing story. Rowland repeatedly changed and altered his story as time went on and at no time did his description of who he supposedly saw ever resemble BRW as the person he fabricated as having seen in the SN.


The CHAIRMAN - Anything further, Congressman Ford?
Representative FORD - Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back--
The CHAIRMAN - Supposing we take a few minutes recess.
Mr. ROWLAND - The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I pass that area very frequently.

Rowland reconstructed the assassination in his mind until he finally convinces himself there was another person.





Rowland fabricated numerous parts of his testimony, an additional person in the SN was just one of them.

1) Seeing the initial gunman on the 6th floor. The reporting of this person is the only reason any one was talking to him in the first place and starting his 15 minutes of fame. He tells his wife about the sighting but she does not see any one. He never looks back at the window when he hears the shots, which defies the imagination on how a person would think and react.

2) Seeing another person in the SN. This is what made the WC react and determine if he was telling the truth about seeing someone. Interesting he would go back to "seeing someone" to try and recapture his 15 minutes of fame.

3) He volunteers the information about his grades and his wife then volunteers the information about the fact he is not telling the truth.

4) Rowland went in front of the WC and gave them three different answers to the question “did you look back at the 6th floor?”  Rowland states he looks back at the window, he doesn't look back at the window, and maybe he looks back at the window. All in the same testimony.

5) Specter shows Arnold does not get the orientation of the person originally reported with the gun in the window before the assassination in the SW corner of the TSBD .

6) He represents himself as being knowledgeable about guns, but then makes up his own caliber and makes the statement it is an import and he knows the caliber "30 odd size 6" from 200 feet away. There is no such rifle as a “30 odd size 6”.  A 30-06 is not an import rifle it was the standard cartridge of the US Military through two world wars and the Korean conflict. Everything about Rowlands statement indicates he was making it up as he went.

7) He never tells anyone not even his wife about seeing an additional person in the SN despite being interviewed numerous times.

He makes claims that not only the FBI didn't record his statement properly but he doesn't like how his description of the person in the SW corner sounds so he accuses the Dallas Sheriffs Dept of changing his statement from the person standing 15 feet from the window to 3 to 5 feet back from the window .

9) Even Roger Craig then gets involved. He does not get the race or location of 2nd person correct. Not only that but in any of his previous statements he does not mention Rowland making any other statement except for their being 1 person in the SW corner.

Rowlands description of the person he supposedly seen is even more bizarre.