Gus Rose

[Colin Crow]

So kind of you to question my honesty Charles. While the questioning of Fritz does not make it clear, it certainly implies that an officer indicated Oswald has an address on Beckley prior to Oswald confirming it. Fritz did not remember whether that information was passed on prior to commencing the first interrogation or during that event. It occurred outside his office.

We know that about 15 minutes after the arrival of the cops at the Paine’s, Walthers related the roominghouse phone number back to Decker and the address was cross checked from that. Surely it is possible that this was how Fritz was informed. Alternatively the was a mystery officer who knew about the Beckley address independently. As I said, it is unfortunate that the officer was not identified so that we could be certain how the information was obtained.

Charles, I was not questioning the recollections expressed by Rose in your original post, merely when they occurred. The 3.30pm time frame makes no sense to me and I question the need for a 40 minute wait. I can find no other documentation to suggest it occurred.

The point I would like to pursue is the notion that information was being passed from Irving to Dallas by phone. Do people think that there was information flow the other way? Specifically information about the crime scene. The rifle, the lunch, the long sack and that Frazier had taken him to work. I wonder if the other TSBD employees had notice whether Buell had driven him to work that day.

As you have implied I was not acting in good faith I would appreciate a response to my post above. Did Bugliosi suggest anywhere that there might have been an alternative for Fritz finding out about Beckley other than from Oswald? If not, I gather we grant him "poetic licence" but acknowledge it as such. It seems he was not complete too. I take my point as proven.

Bugliosi fails to tell the complete story, when the material is questioned the questioner's honesty is called. I seem to remember you live in an area that supports Trump. Looks like consistent style.

[Charles Collins]

Yes, and if you randomly connect dots or ignore some of the dots, or add extra dots that aren't there then you get the wrong result.

CTs only try to convert the dots into question marks. Problem is they don’t have any ink (evidence) to put in their pens.

[Colin Crow]

Mrs. PAINE - I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.
Mr. JENNER - Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.
Mr. JENNER - Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?
Mrs. PAINE - No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.
Mr. McCLOY - May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were Sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?
Mrs. PAINE - It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.

Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was Fifth.
Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I took our officer, Harry Weatherford, and we met Officer Adamcik that works for the city and Officer Rose and another one of their officers, but I don't recall his name right now--at this address in Irving and when we went to the door, what turned out to be Mrs. Paine just as soon as we stepped on the porch, she said, "Come on in, we've been expecting you, and we didn't have any trouble at all--we just went right on in and stared asking her--at that time it didn't appear that her or Mrs. Oswald, or Marina, who came up carrying one of the babies in the living room--it didn't appear that they knew that Oswald had been arrested at all--the way they talked.

The point is Charles, they didn't know it was Lee at the time the cops arrived. They were listening to the news (of course). It was not at 3.30pm when they arrived.

[Charles Collins]

As you have implied I was not acting in good faith I would appreciate a response to my post above. Did Bugliosi suggest anywhere that there might have been an alternative for Fritz finding out about Beckley other than from Oswald? If not, I gather we grant him "poetic licence" but acknowledge it as such. It seems he was not complete too. I take my point as proven.

Bugliosi fails to tell the complete story, when the material is questioned the questioner's honesty is called. I seem to remember you live in an area that supports Trump. Looks like consistent style.

Colin, my implication was out of line. And I apologize for that. You are more reasonable than most. From my perspective, it often appears that people purposely try to trip up the opposition in order to make them look foolish. But I don’t think that is your way. I was probably overreacting.

I agree with you that the 3:30 time doesn’t appear to agree with the other evidence. If you want my guess, I guess that it is just an honest mistake.

[Charles Collins]

Mrs. PAINE - I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.
Mr. JENNER - Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.
Mr. JENNER - Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?
Mrs. PAINE - No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.
Mr. McCLOY - May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were Sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?
Mrs. PAINE - It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.

Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was Fifth.
Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I took our officer, Harry Weatherford, and we met Officer Adamcik that works for the city and Officer Rose and another one of their officers, but I don't recall his name right now--at this address in Irving and when we went to the door, what turned out to be Mrs. Paine just as soon as we stepped on the porch, she said, "Come on in, we've been expecting you, and we didn't have any trouble at all--we just went right on in and stared asking her--at that time it didn't appear that her or Mrs. Oswald, or Marina, who came up carrying one of the babies in the living room--it didn't appear that they knew that Oswald had been arrested at all--the way they talked.

The point is Charles, they didn't know it was Lee at the time the cops arrived. They were listening to the news (of course). It was not at 3.30pm when they arrived.

The best I can determine, so far, the name was broadcast on the radio before it was broadcast on television. Mr Johnson at North Beckley apparently saw the first broadcast on television (with a photo) while the officers were still confused due to the fake name (O H Lee). Johnson recognized the face on television and pointed them to Oswald’s room. This happened at a little after 3:00 I believe. So it appears to me that the arrival of the officers at the Paine house was likely just before 3:00.

[Colin Crow]

Colin, my implication was out of line. And I apologize for that. You are more reasonable than most. From my perspective, it often appears that people purposely try to trip up the opposition in order to make them look foolish. But I don’t think that is your way. I was probably overreacting.

I agree with you that the 3:30 time doesn’t appear to agree with the other evidence. If you want my guess, I guess that it is just an honest mistake.

Thanks Charles......appreciated. Like I said I believe the sentiment expressed by Rose works well if Ruth and Marina were not aware of Oswald's apprehension at that time. I suspect it most likely happened about 2.45pm, not 3.30pm.

[Colin Crow]

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to your wife after you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, and before you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - I don't believe so. I think I called her only once to see that she was listening to the news, and then I assumed she would know all that I knew, and as soon as she heard that I supposed she would be wondering the same thing. It wasn't many minutes later though, it seemed to me, that the name Lee Oswald was mentioned-in the theater. The newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all I needed to send me home.
Mr. LIEBELER - So then you left for your home in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.

It would seem the sequence was;

An arrest in the theatre announced....

then Cops knock at the Paine front door.....

then Michael Paine heard Oswald's name in connection with the theatre arrest and leaves for Irving.

[John Iacoletti]

CTs only try to convert the dots into question marks. Problem is they don’t have any ink (evidence) to put in their pens.

LNers have a predetermined picture that they try to draw regardless of where the dots actually are.