Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy

[Lee Wotton]

I think you just described yourself

[Lee Wotton]

Throat shot from the front though the windscreen which reduced its energy

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2017/10/26/20171027_jfkpara3.jpg

[Tim Nickerson]

In Mary Woodward's case, I think her change of opinion after 30 years as to the location of source
of the shots can likely be attributed to cognitive dissonance. This is just one statement she made about
the pressure and backlash resulting from her original statement where she said ??After acknowledging
our cheers he [President Kennedy] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to our right." [the grassy knoll area]

Lloyd, Continuing from where you left off:

"My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car. Apparently, the driver and occupants of the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt. Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun...Then after a moment's pause, there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car. "

I think that this is where cognitive dissonance comes into play for some on a number of issues. If there were three shots and they all came from the Grassy Knoll, how was it possible that Kennedy and Connally were both struck in the back?  Kennedy was really struck at the base of the neck, but that's another matter. The wound itself was one of entry. Also, if the first shot missed, then how does one get around the Single Bullet Theory?

The same Allen Dulles who was fired by JFK and put on the Warren Commission by LBJ.

Allen Dulles was not fired by JFK.

[John Iacoletti]

Amazing how people are so obsessed by this that they have nothing else to do with their lives only log in here 24-7 posting nonsense post after nonsense post. Do you people ever think about nothing else or talk about nothing else. This case was solved in 1963 - 64. Oswald the psychopath and cold blooded killer killed JFK all by himself. A blood thirsty malcontent murderer who had a taste for killing political figures. That's all there is to it. Now that's that.

Don't let the door smack your ass on the way out.

Amazing that all you ever seem to contribute is insults and arrogance.  Troll.

This thread is a rehash of The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?. Same subject, different name. The contention that the Dallas Police constructed CE-142 is absolutely absurd. It's right up there with Big-foot, The Abominable Snowman, The Loch Ness Monster, Crop Circles, UFO'S, Alien's, The Enfield Haunting, The Banshee, Moving Statues, etc, etc. Oswald constructed the bag. End of story. Sorry but that's the way it was. I would expect this thread to be a long one though. 

Amazing that people are sucked in by Doug Horne's tripe.

It doesn't take a genius or an expert to figure out that Horne hasn't got a clue what he is talking about. His assertions are completely outlandish conspiracy nonsense.

LOL. What a load of nonsense. No intelligent person is going to fall for this rubbish. You're really far out Tony. The fairytale continues.

Was Lee Oswald the passenger in Whaley's Taxi?

Of course he was, only a fool would believe otherwise.

Only a fool would believe that my opinion which is actually a fact is not supported by the actual evidence and only a fool would believe that I would make a statement of fact without actual evidence. Your good at making unsupported opinions by twisting the actual evidence from reality into the fantasy realm in which you reside sir.

How should I put this, oh, THERE WERE NO TWO OSWALD'S. The two Oswald theory is absolute hogwash. Amazing that people are sucked in by this nonsense.

[Lloyd Morris]

Lloyd, Continuing from where you left off:

Allen Dulles was not fired by JFK.

Forced resignation would probably be a better word. The White House released Dulles's resignation letter in the aftermath of the failed Bay of Pigs disaster. David Talbot who wrote an excellent biography of Allen Dulles The Devil?s Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America?s Secret Government, does a very good job explaining this issue along with the forced resignations of Richard Bissell and General Charles Cabell [the brother of the Mayor of Dallas, Earl Cabell who has since been proven to be a CIA asset]

"My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car. Apparently, the driver and occupants of the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt. Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun...Then after a moment's pause, there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car. "

                                                                                                             -Mary Woodward

"I think that this is where cognitive dissonance comes into play for some on a number of issues. If there were three shots and they all came from the Grassy Knoll, how was it possible that Kennedy and Connally were both struck in the back?  Kennedy was really struck at the base of the neck, but that's another matter. The wound itself was one of entry. Also, if the first shot missed, then how does one get around the Single Bullet Theory? "

Tim,

These are all excellent questions that need excellent answers and I am not sure I have them. To begin with I don't believe all the shots came from any one location.

If Mary Woodward was correct and the first shot missed [and likely hit James Tague near the triple underpass over a hundred yards away from the limousine carrying the President] then according to the WC, the second shot must have struck both JFK and Gov. Connelly [this is so called Magic Bullet or SBT depending on your point of view] and then the last bullet would have struck JFK in the head.

This would mean the Dallas doctors and nurses who thought the neck wound was one of entrance were wrong.  It would also require the three pathologists at the official autopsy to be incorrect when they probed and found JFK's shallow back wound did not exit JFK's body. They noted the end of this wound could be felt with their finger.

The three pathologists would also have to be wrong when they found the angle of the back would was 45 to 60 degrees downward [much steeper than the angle of approximately 19 degrees the FBI and WC concluded the angle from the 6th floor of the TSBD to the President at the time the bullet would have struck JFK and Connelly.] This would make it impossible for this bullet reverse course and then travel upwards to exit JFK's throat and then reverse course downward again and travel into Gov. Connally's back.

The list of things that would have had to occur for the Magic Bullet/Single Bullet theory to work is staggering to me. From the official report of  FBI Agents Sibert and O?Neill who documented the autopsy for the FBI:


"During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders [and obviously not JFK's neck] and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees.

Further probing determined that the distance travelled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. Inasmuch as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X?Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets."


If the entrance wound in JFK back was shallow [less than the length of the pathologist's finger] and did not exit or pass through JFK body to come out the front of the throat, how could this bullet strike Gov. Connelly?
And what caused the small [4mm to 7mm] round, well demarcated wound in JFK's throat that Dallas Emergency Room doctors clearly described as a wound of entry?

Interesting enough, even the FBI had decided on a completely different version of these three shots than what the WC would eventually decided had happened. The FBI stood by their original conclusions for several months until they were forced to confront and deal with the injury of James Tague in the summer of 1964.

[Ross Lidell]

Hahaha what's the new law of physics you just invented?  Oswald never fired a rifle that day as tests showed and they didn't find his print on the rifle before the chain of evidence was broken.  Read up on it

Fact: Suspects have been arrested and sent to trial for murder ... even when there were no "prints" on the murder weapon. The perpetrator wiped the weapon of prints! The jury accepted other evidence--including ownership and possession of the weapon--and found the defendant guilty.

The test you refer to (paraffin) often produces false positives and false negatives.

Also: Oswald's movements are not fully known from the encounter with Officer Baker (TSBD) to McDonald (Texas Theater). Lee Oswald could have quickly ducked into the restroom at the Theater to cool-down by washing his face with cold water. This would produce a negative paraffin test on his right cheek. There's no proof but it could have been done. He then deposited nitrates on his right hand when he pulled his gun on Officer McDonald. That explains the positive test for nitrates on his right hand. All within the realm of possibility.

[Tim Nickerson]

Forced resignation would probably be a better word. The White House released Dulles's resignation letter in the aftermath of the failed Bay of Pigs disaster. David Talbot who wrote an excellent biography of Allen Dulles The Devil?s Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America?s Secret Government, does a very good job explaining this issue along with the forced resignations of Richard Bissell and General Charles Cabell [the brother of the Mayor of Dallas, Earl Cabell who has since been proven to be a CIA asset]

Lloyd,

Dale Myers addressed Talbot's biography of Allen Dulles a couple of years ago. Here is an excerpt from that article:

"It didn?t take long for the true mastermind of the ?JFK plot? to be revealed in October of this year courtesy of author David Talbot and his new book, ?The Devil?s Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of the American Secret Government,? in which Talbot claimed that former CIA Director Allen Dulles orchestrated the Kennedy murder from a secret CIA facility in Virginia, where he remained for the weekend ? during which time the ?suspect,? Lee Harvey Oswald, was killed, and a vast machinery began to create the ?lone gunman? myth that has dominated our history books to the present.

What was Kennedy?s crime for which a high profile, daylight murder was the only option? Answer: Kennedy allegedly forced Dulles to resign his CIA post in the wake of the Bay of Pigs disaster. (The reality though is that Kennedy didn?t want his resignation, and in fact initially resisted it, but after political pressure, Kennedy reluctantly accepted Dulles? resignation, and even later defended their relationship.)

Never mind that Dulles was a longtime friend of the Kennedy family (and remained so even after his resignation), or that JFK surprised Dulles with a National Security Medal?the highest honor?after Dulles? resignation, or that JFK wrote a heartfelt letter to Dulles the day after the presentation in which he penned, ?I am sure you know you carry with you the admiration and affection of all of us who have served with you. I am glad to be counted among the seven Presidents in whose administrations you have worked, and I am glad that we shall continue to have your help and counsel??

Even Robert Kennedy acknowledged that his brother liked Dulles, telling historian Arthur Schlesinger, ?He [JFK] liked him [Dulles]?thought he was a real gentlemen, handled himself well. There were obviously so many mistakes made at the time of the Bay of Pigs that it wasn?t appropriate that he should stay on. And he always took the blame. He was a real gentleman. JFK thought very highly of him.?

Letters between the Kennedys and Dulles, available in the Dulles collection at Princeton University and at the JFK Library, give overwhelming evidence of their close friendship?a friendship that endured until the end of their lives. And has anyone bothered to query Dulles?s children about this alleged hatred between their father and the man he used to join on vacations in Palm Beach?"

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.ca/2015/11/fifty-two-years-of-coming-to-terms-with.html

These are all excellent questions that need excellent answers and I am not sure I have them. To begin with I don't believe all the shots came from any one location.

If Mary Woodward was correct and the first shot missed [and likely hit James Tague near the triple underpass over a hundred yards away from the limousine carrying the President] then according to the WC, the second shot must have struck both JFK and Gov. Connelly [this is so called Magic Bullet or SBT depending on your point of view] and then the last bullet would have struck JFK in the head.

Tague wasn't hit until the third shot.

This would mean the Dallas doctors and nurses who thought the neck wound was one of entrance were wrong.

I'm not aware of any nurses who said that they thought the neck wound was one of entrance. The doctors who thought it was later admitted that it could have very well have been an exit wound and that they were wrong to say that it was an entrance wound.

It would also require the three pathologists at the official autopsy to be incorrect when they probed and found JFK's shallow back wound did not exit JFK's body. They noted the end of this wound could be felt with their finger.

The wound was not probed with a finger. Think about it. The wound hole was 7 mm by 4 mm. My six month old grandson might be able to fit one of his fingers inside a hole that size but certainly none of the pathologists could.

Regarding the possibility of successfully probing from entry to exit; From the Clark Panel:

"The possibility that the path of the bullet through the neck might have been more satisfactorily explored by the insertion of a finger or probe was considered. Obviously the cutaneous wound in the back was too small to permit the insertion of a finger. The insertion of a metal probe would have carried the risk of creating a false passage in part, because of the changed relationship of muscles at the time of autopsy and in part because of the existence of postmortem rigidity."

http://www.jfklancer.com/ClarkPanel.html

From the HSCA FPP:

"(430) The panel believes that the difficulty which Drs. Humes, Finck, and Boswell experienced in trying to place a soft probe through the bullet pathway in President Kennedy?s neck probably resulted from their failure or inability to manipulate this portion of the body into the same position it was in when the missile penetrated. Rigor mortis may have hindered this manipulation. Such placement would have enabled reconstruction of the relationships of the neck and shoulder when the missile struck."

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/files/hscv7cII.htm

The three pathologists would also have to be wrong when they found the angle of the back would was 45 to 60 degrees downward [much steeper than the angle of approximately 19 degrees the FBI and WC concluded the angle from the 6th floor of the TSBD to the President at the time the bullet would have struck JFK and Connelly.] This would make it impossible for this bullet reverse course and then travel upwards to exit JFK's throat and then reverse course downward again and travel into Gov. Connally's back.

Three pathologists never found the angle of the back wound was 45 to 60 degrees downward. It was never recorded as such by them. They never actually measured the angle. It was a comment that Humes made during the autopsy. I believe that Humes later said that he guessed. Anyway, he was definitely wrong.

The list of things that would have had to occur for the Magic Bullet/Single Bullet theory to work is staggering to me.

It's not staggering at all when you know the real details of it.

From the official report of  FBI Agents Sibert and O?Neill who documented the autopsy for the FBI:

"During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders [and obviously not JFK's neck] and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees.

Further probing determined that the distance travelled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. Inasmuch as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X?Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets."


If the entrance wound in JFK back was shallow [less than the length of the pathologist's finger] and did not exit or pass through JFK body to come out the front of the throat, how could this bullet strike Gov. Connelly?

Already dealt with above.

And what caused the small [4mm to 7mm] round, well demarcated wound in JFK's throat that Dallas Emergency Room doctors clearly described as a wound of entry?

The wound in JFK's throat was caused by the bullet exiting.

Interesting enough, even the FBI had decided on a completely different version of these three shots than what the WC would eventually decided had happened. The FBI stood by their original conclusions for several months until they were forced to confront and deal with the injury of James Tague in the summer of 1964.

The Tague injury wasn't a problem for the FBI or anyone else. If Tague was actually hit at all it was most likely by a fragment from the head shot. 

[Lloyd Morris]

Tim,

I will post a better reply tomorrow, we are just going out to dinner now.

Are you saying you really think JFK didn't fire Allen Dulles or the pathologists didn't probe JFK's back wound or James Tague wasn't hit by either pieces of curb or fragments of a bullet or that Tague's injury did not cause the FBI to change their original version of events to agree with the WC Magic Bullet/Single Bullet Theory?

Let me know if I am not understanding you correctly on all this.

Thanks,

Lloyd