CE 2562

[Walt Cakebread]

I have some doubt about the "net weight" theory, since shippers usually deduct "tare" from containers they provide to clients. (I'm willing to be corrected on that; I am no expert on shipping, and yes, I am not - unlike the Pope, allegedly - infallible.)

But if we go with your proposition on shipping weight of the rifles, 750lbs for 100 units, then the rifles would be 7.5lbs each, i.e. 40" rifle, not the 36" model Oswald ordered. No? Yes?

Yes, The 40 inch long, 7.5 pound, model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano short rifle is the rifle that was sent to PO box 2915 in Dallas....   But when it was shipped to Dallas it had a scope attached which increased the weight to 8 pounds.    I believe that it is the same rifle that was found on the sixth floor where it had been carefully hidden beneath a pallet that had boxes of books stacked on it ( It had NOT been hastily cast aside) ...And it had NOT been fired that day....So it was NOT the murder weapon.

The Carcano was found well hidden beneath a heavy pallet of boxes of books.  Boone and Weitzman had to use powerful flashlights to enable them to see beneath the pallet where the rifle was lying on it's right side ( Sling and scope up)  Detective Robert Studebaker measured the distance from the interior side of the north wall of the building and recorded that the rifle was 25 feet 4 inches south of that north wall and 5 feet east of the west wall. (See Studebaker's map) The in situ photos that purportedly show the rifle as it was found are fakes.    The rifle in the in situ photo is only 13 feet from that north wall.

The DPD was forced to move the rifle over two feet north when someone realized that there wasn't a human being on earth who could reach across the distance from the aisle at the top of the stairs and place the rifle down on the floor beneath a stack of books that was four feet high.

[John Tonkovich]

The order form in the National Archives shows C20-T750. 36".

[John Mytton]

The order form in the National Archives shows C20-T750. 36".

Kleins used the same catalogue number "C20-T750" for both the 36 and 40 inch Carcano rifles. Btw what is interesting is that Kleins was using the 36 inch model advertisement in another magazine as late as iirc August 1963.



JohnM

[John Tonkovich]

Kleins used the same catalogue number "C20-T750" for both the 36 and 40 inch Carcano rifles. Btw what is interesting is that Kleins was using the 36 inch model advertisement in another magazine as late as iirc August 1963.



JohnM

Jerry`s reference ad - and his post -state C20-T750 as 36" rifle with scope.

More importantly, the weight and packaging issue is unresolved.
I would think shippers charge by the pound, and there is no "tare" involved here.

[John Mytton]

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11277#relPageId=55&tab=page

Thanks Tim, the reason why the shipping documents and the Kleins paperwork both have the weight as 750 is because initially that's what they were told by the supplier "Crescent Firearms" and imo unless there was some obvious discrepency, Lifschultz went with what was on the paperwork.
Also note that the 750 appears to include an unknown number of clips.



JohnM

[John Tonkovich]

Thanks Tim, the reason why the shipping documents and the Kleins paperwork both have the weight as 750 is because initially that's what they were told by the supplier "Crescent Firearms" and imo unless there was some obvious discrepency, Lifschultz went with what was on the paperwork.
Also note that the 750 appears to include an unknown number of clips.



JohnM

Where's the notation on clips?  Thanks.

[Tim Nickerson]

I think when a shipper provides containers, it more applies to things like bulk fruit and vegetables, or grain and ore.

I doubt a shipper would have provided the cardboard containers used to pack the Carcanos in Italy. I believe each Carcano was wrapped in heavy paper and placed side-by-side in the container, with some packing material to fill gaps between. Things wouldn't shift much. The overseas shipment would have been gross weight, including tare. In the USA, Adam could have gotten a freight contract for "net weight", arguing the containers were cardboard and that the rifles (TS at first, then Short Rifles) being shipped had different weights.

When you say "the 36" model Oswald ordered", you appear to be going solely by the Feb-1963 ad saying the length was 36" (a TS is 36 1/2"). In that case, do you also accept that Klein's was shipping a rifle that weighed 5 1/2 lbs (the TS weighed about 6.4 lbs) and the model-type illustrated (shortened M91 Rifle)?



The Order No and price in the Feb-1963 ad reflect the 40" M91/38 Short Rifle (Adam sold those to Klein's for one dollar more; the TS Order No was C20-T749 for $11.88). Klein's updated the length and weight (albeit wrong but now closer) in later ads the same year. The Order No and price remained the same or near to it. I don't know what year (if any) they updated the illustrated. Possibly Klein's dropped the Carcano mali-order offers in the wake of the assassination, and sold remaining stock on the floor or through an auction.

Oswald ordered the "packaged deal" (Order No C20-750) for $19.95. It makes sense to me that the "package deal" would mean the base model in the same ad to which a scope was added.

Jerry, I recall reading some time ago that each rifle was package individually in cardboard and then placed in another cardboard box with nine others..

[Tim Nickerson]

Thanks Tim, the reason why the shipping documents and the Kleins paperwork both have the weight as 750 is because initially that's what they were told by the supplier "Crescent Firearms" and imo unless there was some obvious discrepency, Lifschultz went with what was on the paperwork.
Also note that the 750 appears to include an unknown number of clips.



JohnM

I don't know if you noticed or not but a number of the documents seem to refer to the weight of the rifles being shipped as being 750lbs.