Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?

[John Iacoletti]

...and you (again) are arguing that something is “most likely” based on nothing other than that you think it makes sense.

[Charles Collins]

...and you (again) are arguing that something is “most likely” based on nothing other than that you think it makes sense.

No, I am saying that that IS the way that the library system worked. Now if you have evidence that the N.O. library system worked differently and actually had records of the actual return dates, then YOU might have a leg to stand on. Otherwise, you don’t.

[John Iacoletti]

Wait, so you’re saying that the burden is on me to show that the person who wrote the memo didn’t really mean “due date” when he wrote “return date”?

The burden is on me to show that your conjecture is false?

How is a library supposed to administer overdue fines if they don’t keep records of actual return dates?

[John Tonkovich]

No, I am saying that that IS the way that the library system worked. Now if you have evidence that the N.O. library system worked differently and actually had records of the actual return dates, then YOU might have a leg to stand on. Otherwise, you don’t.

CE 2560 does indicate a delinquency on Oswald's part, regarding a Dallas public library book.
There is no mention of any investigation into New Orleans library delinquencies.
The entire "investigation " seems rather perfunctory, a.k.a. CYA.

A little googling reveals that some libraries used an Adressograph system, similar to the old credit card system. Not sure of the validity of your "photograph " anecdote.

Conclusion: CE 2560 shows the "due date" of Oswald's library books. When they were actually returned is lost in time...like tears in rain. : )

Aside:  Oswald's overdue Dallas library book, The Shark and The Sardines looks to be a great read. Who better than the ex president ( first democratically elected, to boot) of Guatemala to recount U.S. oppression ( including the 1954 CIA coup de etat) of his country?
This only adds to the enigma of Oswald re: his reading material and actual political beliefs. Spy books glamorizing Western agents of the establishment, and progressive, anti imperialist screeds?

[Charles Collins]

Wait, so you’re saying that the burden is on me to show that the person who wrote the memo didn’t really mean “due date” when he wrote “return date”?

The burden is on me to show that your conjecture is false?

How is a library supposed to administer overdue fines if they don’t keep records of actual return dates?

How is a library supposed to administer overdue fines if they don’t keep records of actual return dates?

They don't need the actual return dates to administer overdue fines. They typically keep the cards and file them by due (return) dates. And, if a card is still in a certain date's (for instance 10/3/63) file on 10/4/63, after all the books that were returned prior to 10/4/63 have been processed (the cards taken out of the file and placed back in the pockets inside the books and returned back to the shelves) then the books that correspond with those cards are overdue. The librarian can then look up those cards on the microfilm and send out reminders to the borrowers. Therefore the actual return date(s) of the books that anyone borrowed (including LHO) is unknown. We only have evidence that they were returned before 10/4/63.


Wait, so you’re saying that the burden is on me to show that the person who wrote the memo didn’t really mean “due date” when he wrote “return date”?


No, that is not necessary because the actual return dates were not available under the standard library systems in use during that time period (see above response). If you contend that it was the actual return date, then you need to show evidence that that information was available. Example: the New Orleans Library system used a different system than the standard system for libraries elsewhere which included the actual return dates.

The burden is on me to show that your conjecture is false?


I have evidence that the actual return dates were not available. Therefore it is not conjecture.

[Charles Collins]

CE 2560 does indicate a delinquency on Oswald's part, regarding a Dallas public library book.
There is no mention of any investigation into New Orleans library delinquencies.
The entire "investigation " seems rather perfunctory, a.k.a. CYA.

A little googling reveals that some libraries used an Adressograph system, similar to the old credit card system. Not sure of the validity of your "photograph " anecdote.

Conclusion: CE 2560 shows the "due date" of Oswald's library books. When they were actually returned is lost in time...like tears in rain. : )

Aside:  Oswald's overdue Dallas library book, The Shark and The Sardines looks to be a great read. Who better than the ex president ( first democratically elected, to boot) of Guatemala to recount U.S. oppression ( including the 1954 CIA coup de etat) of his country?
This only adds to the enigma of Oswald re: his reading material and actual political beliefs. Spy books glamorizing Western agents of the establishment, and progressive, anti imperialist screeds?

The book "The Shark and the Sardines" was probably the last library book that LHO checked out of the library. It is available on Kindle for a very reasonable price. However, it was a difficult read for me. Mostly because it was full of redundancy and ideas that I simply disagreed with. It did, however, have plenty of fuel to add to the fire in LHO due to his dislike of the political system in the U.S. and his perception of it's mistreatment of Cuba and Latin America in general.

 Now, for the mystery seekers out there: who returned that library book to the Oakcliff Library after LHO was murdered???

[John Iacoletti]

They don't need the actual return dates to administer overdue fines. They typically keep the cards and file them by due (return) dates. And, if a card is still in a certain date's (for instance 10/3/63) file on 10/4/63, after all the books that were returned prior to 10/4/63 have been processed (the cards taken out of the file and placed back in the pockets inside the books and returned back to the shelves) then the books that correspond with those cards are overdue. The librarian can then look up those cards on the microfilm and send out reminders to the borrowers. Therefore the actual return date(s) of the books that anyone borrowed (including LHO) is unknown. We only have evidence that they were returned before 10/4/63.

Every library I ever used had overdue fines per day for late returns.  They would have to keep track of when the book was actually returned in order to calculate that.

No, that is not necessary because the actual return dates were not available under the standard library systems in use during that time period (see above response).

I don't believe you've actually demonstrated any standard.  You gave a single example and assumed that it was a standard.

I have evidence that the actual return dates were not available. Therefore it is not conjecture.

What is your evidence that the actual return dates in this specific case were not available?

[Charles Collins]

Every library I ever used had overdue fines per day for late returns.  They would have to keep track of when the book was actually returned in order to calculate that.

I don't believe you've actually demonstrated any standard.  You gave a single example and assumed that it was a standard.

What is your evidence that the actual return dates in this specific case were not available?

Every library I ever used had overdue fines per day for late returns.  They would have to keep track of when the book was actually returned in order to calculate that.


No, they did not need the actual return date (unless the book became overdue). And in that case, all they needed was how many days it was late (after the due/return date). And they had the due/return date information by using the standard system already described. The elapsed days between the return/due date and when the book(s) were returned was multiplied by the per day rate. Why do you believe they would have gone to the trouble to track unnecessary information?

I don't believe you've actually demonstrated any standard.  You gave a single example and assumed that it was a standard.


My contemporaries and I grew up using the manual system and remember how it worked. It was THE standard system used before computerization, not just a single example as you imply. If you believe there was another system (that included the actual return dates) in use back then in the New Orleans Library System, then where is your evidence of such a system? Otherwise, you are the one assuming something that was not at all common.


What is your evidence that the actual return dates in this specific case were not available?

The standard manual library system did not have that information. The SS report list shows every "return date" as exactly two-weeks from the "date would have been checked out," which is evidence and consistent with the case that the New Orleans Library System used that type of system. What is your evidence that the New Orleans Library System used a system that did have that information?