Shells, rifle, SN... Who?

[John Iacoletti]

I'm sure you can find photos that show the stamping on the Carcano and the inscription on the scope......

No, I haven't.  That's why I asked.  After all, you stated as a fact that "a person nearly needs a magnifying glass to see the MADE ITALY stamped on the barrel whereas the inscription on the scope can easily be read at arms length".

[Walt Cakebread]

No, I haven't.  That's why I asked.  After all, you stated as a fact that "a person nearly needs a magnifying glass to see the MADE ITALY stamped on the barrel whereas the inscription on the scope can easily be read at arms length".

As I said...I don't give a damn if you wish to remain ignorant....The photos have been posted many times....

[Jerry Freeman]

    Fritz simply asked if anybody recognized the make of rifle....and Weitzman ventured a WAG that it "looked like a 7.65 Mauser".....

A 7.65 mm hot potato------

Mr. BALL - There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this rifle as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it was 7.65 Mauser.
Mr. BALL - Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting ready to photograph it.
We were just discussing it beck and forth. And he said it looks like a 7.65 Mauser.

Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes
Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges.
Mr. BALL. Did you initial the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. The rifle; no, sir.

Mr Freeman.... Why not? You handled it.

[Gary Craig]

Your logic assumes that Weitzman/Boone were bolt-action cognoscenti enough to know that the crest would be ground off (and that different rifles would not have their national crests ground off). It also assumes that they saw the ground off crest and/or the receiver markings. There is no evidence whatsoever that either assumption is true.

I agree, there is no evidence in the affidavits, crime reports or testimony of the ground off Argentine national crest or the  receiver markings noting the model number and manufacturing location indicating a '91 Argentine Mauser.

The WC, LN idea is that Boone and Weitzman misidentified the TSBD Carcano as a 7.65 mauser. Specifically one that resembles the Carcano enough to fool several veteran LE officers. A Argentine Model 1891 7.65 Mauser is the suspect as it looks similar to the Carcano examined by LT. Day on the 6th floor TSBD on 11/22/63.

Herein lies the problem. Anyone familiar with that model Mauser would also be familiar with 2 of it's most prominent identifying characteristics: The ground off Argentine national crest and the receiver markings.




Since, as you noted in your post, these were never mentioned there are a couple possibilities.

1.) A 7.65 mauser was found by Boone and Weitzman, just not a model '91 Argentine, and it quickly disappeared.
2.) There is another model 7.65 mauser that resembles the Carcano enough to fool those officers.

IMO the 1st option is the most likely.

[Walt Cakebread]

A 7.65 mm hot potato------Mr Freeman.... Why not? You handled it.

Mr. BALL - There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this rifle as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it was 7.65 Mauser.
Mr. BALL - Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting ready to photograph it.
We were just discussing it beck and forth. And he said it looks like a 7.65 Mauser.

This is the truth.....However.... Weitzman may have suggested that it looked like a 7.65 Mauser before Fritz made that statement and Fritz heard it.

Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes
Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges.


And this is the lie.....Notice that Fritz lies just like Roger Craig..... Mr. BALL. "Did you think it was a Mauser?"  No, sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.   While Fritz is correct and the caliber is stamped on the rear sight ...He didn't say that he read that from the rifle, and furthermore there is no stamping on the rifle that identifies it as a carcano, or a mauser, or Yosemite Sam's blunderbuss ..... Fritz was lying.

[Mitch Todd]

I have to come up with an argument against your pure speculation that Weitzman described a clip that wasn't there, but that he just assumed was there because the rifle looked like a Mauser?  Please.

I think we need to add some lost context here. This particular subthread has gone on like this:

Me 0: It's also one rifle, a guy who doesn't know guns as well as he might like to believe, a guy who takes his cue from the guy who doesn't quite know guns that well, and a semi-pro liar who's spent years spinning a self-contradictory story.

Iacoletti 1: Yes, I know that’s the excuse.

Me 2: If it were just an excuse, you'd be able to marshal some cogent argument against it. But you got nothing, so you have nothing to say.

Iacoletti 3: I have to come up with an argument against your pure speculation that Weitzman described a clip that wasn't there, but that he just assumed was there because the rifle looked like a Mauser?

This particular exchange started with the reliability of statements by Weitzman, Boone, and Craig vis a' vis the rifle. It seems to have mysteriously and abruptly segued from to something about "a clip that wasn't there," which isn't really something that I've actually argued. Either you didn't understand, or just don't care to.  What I've said about Weitzman, Boone, and Craig is not speculation: Weitzman is on the record saying that was wrong. Boone is also on the record that he simply repeated what he heard someone else say. Craig's record is a bit different: he told mutually-contradictory stories that only damaged his credibility. 

[Mitch Todd]

I never claimed they did.  I don't even have any reason to believe that Weitzman and/or Boone ever saw the Alyea film.  Do you?

Didn't say you claimed to. But I figure that if you want to push forwards with the idea that there were two rifles, showing that Boone or Weitzman claimed that the rifle in the Alyea film (or in any of the photos and/or film of the rifle) was not the rifle they found would be a good start.

[Mitch Todd]

If Weitzman was capable of reading the printing on the scope, then he was capable of reading "made in Italy" on the rifle.

"Made Italy" was stamped into the metal of the rifle. That is, it was rifle-colored text on a rifle-colored background, give or take the lighting. The scope was plain white text on a black background. Contrast matters.

The best-quality set of photos of the rifle I know of is here:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305134

Show me, in those photos, where the text on the scope is. Then show me where, in those photos, the "made italy" stamp is. It doesn't have to be particularly legible, I just want to be able to see that it's there.