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Author Topic: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum  (Read 5711 times)

Offline Paul May

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Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« on: April 07, 2020, 10:07:41 PM »
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I know David Lifton.

David Lifton is a friend of mine.

Jim DiEugenio, a consummate fabricator is no David Lifton.


It was just a few days ago that I had the extraordinary experience of being on line, very late at night, and learning—quite unexpectedly— of Bob Dylan’s just released song, Murder Most Foul.  Reading the lyrics, I was astonished to learn that Dylan had focused on— and incorporated into his lyrics—the essence of Best Evidence, or at least, of its final chapters:  autopsy fakery via body alteration; specifically, fakery that involved the (covert and illicit) removal of JFK’s brain, prior to autopsy.

But there is was, in plain English, from Hamlet (Act I, Scene 5), where Hamlet is talking to the Ghost; now quoting:

  And each particular hair to stand on end,

  Like quills upon the fretful porcupine.

  But this eternal blazon  must not be

  To ears of flesh and blood. List, List, O, List!

  If thou didst ever thy dear father love—

  Hamlet.  O God!

  Ghost.  Revenge his foul and most unnatural murder.

  Hamlet.  Murder!

  Ghost.  Murder most foul, as in the best it is,

  But this most foul, strange, and unnatural.

A friend of mine—who also noticed—telephoned me (the first of many calls I received) and asked how I felt; how I felt about my work being mentioned, almost explicitly, in the lyrics of a song written by someone (Dylan) who had recently won the Nobel Prize for Literature (2016).  “I feel proud,” I replied, and I did (and still do). The late Pat Lambert, who played a major role in editing Best Evidence, used to say, “David, your work will seep slowly into the culture.”  She didn’t have any prediction as to when that would occur, just the certainty that eventually it would. 

I hoped she was right.  And maybe now it has, but in a way I would never have expected.  Best Evidence  was published in January 1981.  After years of isolation, I was proud when it was selected  Book of the Month Selection (Sept 1980, approx), was on the New York Times best-seller list (for about 3 months, starting in February 1981); and (to my considerable surprise), was  briefly number 1 on the wire service lists (Feb - April, 1981).

(Aside: I know that many of you are waiting for Final Charade. You will not be disappointed. I've had some personal problems, plus other factors, one of which was the late arrival of some very important--and 'new"--evidence; which led to some re-design).

Meanwhile, I have followed the public reception to Murder Most Foul, and so it was, just a few hours ago, that I visited the London Education Forum to see what was going on in the JFK discussion group there, and came across a writing by James DiEugenio.  I don’t make it habit to follow much of what DiEugenio writes, because he and his brainy pal, Milicent Cranor (who is very smart, much smarter that DiEugenio, and very likely much smarter than I) have exhibited an inexplicable hostility to Best Evidence that dates back some 20 years (or more).

In any event, as i read DiEugenio’s writing, and I was impressed. “Wow,” I thought to myself, “This is pretty good.  He (J. D.) must have really grown, as a writer and a thinker.”

But then, within a few minutes, reality dawned. And my initial reaction was “Oh no! Is that what’s going on here?” Along with: “Here we go again!”

To what am I referring?

What I am referring to is the fact that —when it comes to anything fairly technical (and highly analytic) the author of certain writing at "Kennedy and Kings" is not DiEugenio at all, but a third party.  Now. . who might that be?  Over the years I learned exactly who that was.

This brings me back to this latest piece of writing, supposedly by “Jim DiEugenio,” but obviously written by that third party—specifically, by Milicent Cranor.

Everyone has their sources—their Deep Throat, or perhaps a mole, and I am no exception.

** ** **

I am writing this post to state —for the record, the historical record—that the latest writing by Jim DiEugenio about Murder Most Foul,—a fairly good essay, allegedly by DiEugenio (and just under 3000 words, which would be about 12 pages, double spaced) was not written by DiEugenio, but by Milicent Cranor.

I notice that towards the bottom of page one (in the single-spaced version), she gives herself a literary cameo (in much the same way that Alfred Hitchcock —the great English film director, who passed away in April 1980— would insert himself into one of his films).

So towards the bottom of page one (single spaced), the piece states:

Many writers on the JFK case, including our own Milicent Cranor, have referred to the murder of JFK as a “magic trick”.

Yeah sure, Milicent. A very nice gesture.  A nice pat on the back --your e-back, if I might coin a phrase. But the only “magic trick” here is that Cranor is posing as DiEugenio -- or, to state it differently (and referring back to my posts on this subject years ago) DiEugenio has a talented ghost writer, but pretends he wrote all of this himself.

C’mon Jim.  Its time to ‘fess up,' and end this farce.

Wasn’t it Abraham Lincoln who said: “You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.”  No, in fact it wasn’t—and there’s quite a debate about the origin of that phrase.  No matter:  this famous quote about deception captures the essence of how I feel about this situation, and the false attribution (to Jim DiEugenio) of words (and ideas) written by a third party, someone whose initials are "M. C.".

And that’s about all I have to say - - at this juncture. There may be more in the future.

Stay tuned.

DSL

It was just a few days ago that I had the extraordinary experience of being on line, very late at night, and learning—quite unexpectedly— of Bob Dylan’s just released song, Murder Most Foul.  Reading the lyrics, I was astonished to learn that Dylan had focused on— and incorporated into his lyrics—the essence of Best Evidence, or at least, of its final chapters:  autopsy fakery via body alteration; specifically, fakery that involved the (covert and illicit) removal of JFK’s brain, prior to autopsy.

But there is was, in plain English, from Hamlet (Act I, Scene 5), where Hamlet is talking to the Ghost; now quoting:

  And each particular hair to stand on end,

  Like quills upon the fretful porcupine.

  But this eternal blazon  must not be

  To ears of flesh and blood. List, List, O, List!

  If thou didst ever thy dear father love—

  Hamlet.  O God!

  Ghost.  Revenge his foul and most unnatural murder.

  Hamlet.  Murder!

  Ghost.  Murder most foul, as in the best it is,

  But this most foul, strange, and unnatural.

A friend of mine—who also noticed—telephoned me (the first of many calls I received) and asked how I felt; how I felt about my work being mentioned, almost explicitly, in the lyrics of a song written by someone (Dylan) who had recently won the Nobel Prize for Literature (2016).  “I feel proud,” I replied, and I did (and still do). The late Pat Lambert, who played a major role in editing Best Evidence, used to say, “David, your work will seep slowly into the culture.”  She didn’t have any prediction as to when that would occur, just the certainty that eventually it would. 

I hoped she was right.  And maybe now it has, but in a way I would never have expected.  Best Evidence  was published in January 1981.  After years of isolation, I was proud when it was selected  Book of the Month Selection (Sept 1980, approx), was on the New York Times best-seller list (for about 3 months, starting in February 1981); and (to my considerable surprise), was  briefly number 1 on the wire service lists (Feb - April, 1981).

(Aside: I know that many of you are waiting for Final Charade. You will not be disappointed. I've had some personal problems, plus other factors, one of which was the late arrival of some very important--and 'new"--evidence; which led to some re-design).

Meanwhile, I have followed the public reception to Murder Most Foul, and so it was, just a few hours ago, that I visited the London Education Forum to see what was going on in the JFK discussion group there, and came across a writing by James DiEugenio.  I don’t make it habit to follow much of what DiEugenio writes, because he and his brainy pal, Milicent Cranor (who is very smart, much smarter that DiEugenio, and very likely much smarter than I) have exhibited an inexplicable hostility to Best Evidence that dates back some 20 years (or more).

In any event, as i read DiEugenio’s writing, and I was impressed. “Wow,” I thought to myself, “This is pretty good.  He (J. D.) must have really grown, as a writer and a thinker.”

But then, within a few minutes, reality dawned. And my initial reaction was “Oh no! Is that what’s going on here?” Along with: “Here we go again!”

To what am I referring?

What I am referring to is the fact that —when it comes to anything fairly technical (and highly analytic) the author of certain writing at "Kennedy and Kings" is not DiEugenio at all, but a third party.  Now. . who might that be?  Over the years I learned exactly who that was.

This brings me back to this latest piece of writing, supposedly by “Jim DiEugenio,” but obviously written by that third party—specifically, by Milicent Cranor.

Everyone has their sources—their Deep Throat, or perhaps a mole, and I am no exception.



I am writing this post to state —for the record, the historical record—that the latest writing by Jim DiEugenio about Murder Most Foul,—a fairly good essay, allegedly by DiEugenio (and just under 3000 words, which would be about 12 pages, double spaced) was not written by DiEugenio, but by Milicent Cranor.

I notice that towards the bottom of page one (in the single-spaced version), she gives herself a literary cameo (in much the same way that Alfred Hitchcock —the great English film director, who passed away in April 1980— would insert himself into one of his films).

So towards the bottom of page one (single spaced), the piece states:

Many writers on the JFK case, including our own Milicent Cranor, have referred to the murder of JFK as a “magic trick”.

Yeah sure, Milicent. A very nice gesture.  A nice pat on the back --your e-back, if I might coin a phrase. But the only “magic trick” here is that Cranor is posing as DiEugenio -- or, to state it differently (and referring back to my posts on this subject years ago) DiEugenio has a talented ghost writer, but pretends he wrote all of this himself.

C’mon Jim.  Its time to ‘fess up,' and end this farce.

Wasn’t it Abraham Lincoln who said: “You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.”  No, in fact it wasn’t—and there’s quite a debate about the origin of that phrase.  No matter:  this famous quote about deception captures the essence of how I feel about this situation, and the false attribution (to Jim DiEugenio) of words (and ideas) written by a third party, someone whose initials are "M. C.".

And that’s about all I have to say - - at this juncture. There may be more in the future.

Stay tuned.

DSL


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Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« on: April 07, 2020, 10:07:41 PM »


Offline Joffrey van de Wiel

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Re: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2020, 10:26:55 PM »
The first half of the OP is exactly the same as the bottom half...

Offline Paul May

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Re: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2020, 10:37:31 PM »
The first half of the OP is exactly the same as the bottom half...

Posted twice.  My bad.

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Re: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2020, 10:37:31 PM »


Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2020, 11:38:39 PM »
Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26441-dieugenio-cranor-and-the-mole-my-mole-33120/?do=findComment&comment=417830
Matt Allison   Posted yesterday at 02:50 AM

Quote
On 4/6/2020 at 1:15 AM, David Lifton said:
Jim DiEugenio falsely claimed that I did not originate the theory of body alteration.

No idea if he did that, but if so, sounds to me like he was doing you a favor...

Offline Michael Walton

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Re: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2020, 02:32:42 PM »
If I had to pick or choose between Lifton and DiEugenio, I'd go with Jim. Dave Lifton is a flake. He got lucky 40 years ago when he wrote Best Evidence. There were a lot of saps who fell for his crazy and outlandish story. Yes, I read it it, too, as a 17-year-old kid back then. I've matured since then but unfortunately, there are saps out there of all ages who still believe in Lifton's garbage.

To whit, we're expected to believe that the bad guys somehow squirreled away the body en route from Parkland to the plane, threw the body down into the cargo hold, and then in front of bright TV lights at Andrews, was snuck out the back of the plane and whisked off in a thrumming helicopter while Jackie kept her hand on an empty coffin in front of TV cameras.

The thrumming copter lands, the body is snuck into an unknown location where mad doctors with scalpels at the ready did all manner of "alterations" to the body to cover up some kind of evidence that there was a conspiracy. That is the gist of the story and it's ridiculous and Lifton should be ashamed of himself for coming up with a crazy story like this.

Even more so, he should be ashamed of his new book that's supposed to come out. The gist of this one is even worst - that Dr. Malcolm Perry, who actually worked on Kennedy at Parkland, did not cut into the throat wound proving body alteration. Lifton has a way of asking leading and misleading questions to people to get them to say what he wants so he can then spin his yarns.

M. Cranor is no better. She came up with this ridiculous article about the trail seen in the Z film showing it's some kind of vapor and it leads from the left side of the railroad tracks. She also believes there's some kind of floating never-before-seen Z film that was shown in the early 60's to a select few. Ridiculous.

The main negative with Jim is he publishes people on his website who are flakes and never offers any pushback at all to them on forums. People who believe in other ridiculous stuff like the Oswald clone tale. He just opens the door and publishes them on his site and never says a single word of critique to them when they say sloping shoulders and grayscale levels prove Oswald had a clone that was found in Europe 10 years before Dallas.

So you met Lifton in person and are a friend of his. Big deal! It means absolutely nothing when someone writes a book full of lies and garbage about the assassination.

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Re: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2020, 02:32:42 PM »


Offline Paul May

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Re: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2020, 03:13:54 PM »
If I had to pick or choose between Lifton and DiEugenio, I'd go with Jim. Dave Lifton is a flake. He got lucky 40 years ago when he wrote Best Evidence. There were a lot of saps who fell for his crazy and outlandish story. Yes, I read it it, too, as a 17-year-old kid back then. I've matured since then but unfortunately, there are saps out there of all ages who still believe in Lifton's garbage.

To whit, we're expected to believe that the bad guys somehow squirreled away the body en route from Parkland to the plane, threw the body down into the cargo hold, and then in front of bright TV lights at Andrews, was snuck out the back of the plane and whisked off in a thrumming helicopter while Jackie kept her hand on an empty coffin in front of TV cameras.

The thrumming copter lands, the body is snuck into an unknown location where mad doctors with scalpels at the ready did all manner of "alterations" to the body to cover up some kind of evidence that there was a conspiracy. That is the gist of the story and it's ridiculous and Lifton should be ashamed of himself for coming up with a crazy story like this.

Even more so, he should be ashamed of his new book that's supposed to come out. The gist of this one is even worst - that Dr. Malcolm Perry, who actually worked on Kennedy at Parkland, did not cut into the throat wound proving body alteration. Lifton has a way of asking leading and misleading questions to people to get them to say what he wants so he can then spin his yarns.

M. Cranor is no better. She came up with this ridiculous article about the trail seen in the Z film showing it's some kind of vapor and it leads from the left side of the railroad tracks. She also believes there's some kind of floating never-before-seen Z film that was shown in the early 60's to a select few. Ridiculous.

The main negative with Jim is he publishes people on his website who are flakes and never offers any pushback at all to them on forums. People who believe in other ridiculous stuff like the Oswald clone tale. He just opens the door and publishes them on his site and never says a single word of critique to them when they say sloping shoulders and grayscale levels prove Oswald had a clone that was found in Europe 10 years before Dallas.

So you met Lifton in person and are a friend of his. Big deal! It means absolutely nothing when someone writes a book full of lies and garbage about the assassination.

Difference between Lifton and DiEugenio is simple. I don’t agree with Lifton’s analysis in any respect. That being said, he does and he’s spent 50 years of his life pursuing “his truth”. I respect that. DiEugenio however is a dark, deeply paranoid individual with no social skills, limited knowledge of the actual facts of the case as we know them and is a conman/hustler. Disagree with DiEugenio and he will attack you personally in all forms of ways. No doubt the most unpleasant researcher I’ve encountered in 50+ years.

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2020, 06:07:40 PM »
Difference between Lifton and DiEugenio is simple. I don’t agree with Lifton’s analysis in any respect. That being said, he does and he’s spent 50 years of his life pursuing “his truth”. I respect that. DiEugenio however is a dark, deeply paranoid individual with no social skills, limited knowledge of the actual facts of the case as we know them and is a conman/hustler. Disagree with DiEugenio and he will attack you personally in all forms of ways. No doubt the most unpleasant researcher I’ve encountered in 50+ years.

The point of the following presentation is that every author, in my experience, has reacted pretty much uniformly to facts justifed criticism, except Dr. John McAdams. Maybe this is because McAdams has more
"book larnin'"....Harvard PhD, and all, and is more detached, or because he is better conditioned to criticism, receiving an outsized amount, and rightly, many would agree.

Paul, I am not telling you something that surprises you, this is a tough "business". If you are outspoken it does not matter if the facts are on your side. In response to publicly bringing verifiable facts to the attention of John Simkin, Peter Janney, HP Albarelli, Jr., David Lifton, and Jim DiEugenio, for example, the responses are indistinguishable except for the degree of intensity. Janney described (dismissed my facts) me in the second edition of his book, "Mary's Mosaic" as a "DiEugenio Protege". Later, Jim DiEugenio accused me of falling under the influence of Max Holland!

Paul, David Lifton is a New York Times, best seller author. Would you not agree this accomplishment makes him a public figure, compared to Priscilla Johnson Macmillan researchers and critics, Peter Whitmey and Tom Scully? I'm not claiming Mr. Lifton mistreated me. I was on "my turf" at the time of this encounter I am using as an example, as Mr. Lifton certainly pointed out.

David Lifton motivated me to do a "deep dive" into Priscilla's background and connections because of the manner in which he responded to Peter Whitmey's facts. Mr. Lifton made it personal with Mr. Whitmey, on McAdams's newsgroup.

Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20222-david-lifton-i-have-never-understood-why-so-much-suspicion-is-focused-on-priscilla-johnson-mcmillan/?tab=comments#comment-275141
Tom Scully - Posted June 7, 2013 (edited)
David, I thought it more appropriate to reply to this, here on this thread.

Quote
On 6/6/2013 at 4:10 PM, David Lifton said:...........

If you have not claimed since at least 2003 that there is little or no basis to question the claims of PJM the details in her background running counter to the notion she has long been a witting and an operational intelligence agency asset, I will apologize to you for mistaking you for someone who has made such claims.

If you have made the claims then I do not know what you are talking about.

You attempt to make this a situation that is not about a man of some visibility being challenged to put up or shut up. Support your claims, indicate you read contrary information and consider according to its weight, and alter your own claims if they are eroded by undeniable facts. Tom Scully is a presenter in possession of information running counter to statements you, David Lifton, have made and still stick by. Scully is persistent and patient from a belief in the weight of information running counter to your statements.

Information I have had to work through your objections to present to you invalidates your defense of PJM. This counter information consists of statements of PJM to HSCA and articles published in the NY Times, FBI reports, Princeton Alumni Weekly, Santa Fe New Mexican, and Sam Ballen's book.

It is not about Tom Scully. Your statement and your reply posts are your responsibility. Information from the above sources contradict PJM and your statements in defense of her. Read and consider the counter information. Respond to it. If you have not said what you have said since 2003 your opinions about Priscilla Johnson McMillan would not need defending.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Tom Scully

Less than a week after the exchange above, John Simkin abruptly showed me the door, ending that particular "go round" with David Lifton. Simkin claimed he had "failed to protect," his friend, author Peter Janney, from me, one of his Ed Forum moderators. Simkin booted Jim DiEugenio and I because Mr. Albarelli had complained to Mr. Simkin that DiEugenio and I were too aggressive with book authors who actually were not participating on Simkin's forum. Author Albarelli was a contributor to Peter Janney's book. The prior August, (2012) I had embarrassed Janney and his friends by presenting verfiable facts.

Doug Horne, in an August,  2012 comment posted below my Amazon review of Peter Janney's book, Mary's Mosaic.:



From the second edition of "Mary's Mosaic" by Peter Janney:
......



Simkin himself, however, had treated authors Mel Ayton and Nina Burleigh in an abusive way. The difference was the absence of facts justifying the delivery, as is always the difference between "business" and making it personal.

Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3602&p=33420
John Simkin Posted 15 July 2005 - 12:04 PM
Mel Ayton, on Jul 15 2005, 09:35 AM, said:

Quote
Mel Ayton wrote:
As to the Mary Meyer murder :here's an excerpt from my book "Questions Of Controversy" (2001)
Did you actually get this book published? How did they let this thing through? Was it a vanity publisher?

John Simkin AKA "Mr. Hyde". Contrast the following, with his "hospitality" to Ms. Burleigh and Mr. Ayton.:

Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/5219-discussions-with-authors/?tab=comments#comment-42841
Jim Simkin - Posted October 23, 2005

.....As always, you are clearly wrong with every one of your points. You make judgements without having any evidence to support what you have to stay.

I have asked Michael Kurtz several times and he has yet to answer my emails.

I have asked Gerald Posner four times. He always sends the same reply. He says he will but he is very busy with a book, article, etc. that he is currently writing.

Joe Trento uses the same strategy. He has been asked several questions and so far has only replied to one. I will email him again today with the unanswered questions (see the thread on the Secret History of the CIA). The problem for Joe Trento is that his book relies to much on James Angleton, a man who has been completely discredited over the last few years. The same goes for Edward Epstein. I am sure that is the main reason why he refuses to answer my questions.

Dave Perry, Dave Reitzes and John McAdams have also refused to answer my questions on the Forum.

So far Gus Russo and Dale Myers have not replied to my emails. However, I live in hope.

As you can see, there is a pattern here. Those authors who believe in the lone gunman or the Castro/KGB theory prefer one way communication. This is understandable given the intellectual battering that people like Mel Ayton and yourself have received on this Forum.

I have not been able to contact Tony Summers. I would indeed love to have him on the Forum answering questions about his research. Please let me know if you have his email address.

Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/19058-questions-for-peter-janney-on-his-book-mary’s-mosaic/page/7/
Tom Scully - Posted August 21, 2012 (edited)
.....
I don't see that I've influenced John Simkin to post that Nina Burleigh's book was a "CIA limited hangout"
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/18326-mary-pinchot-meyer-case-said-to-be-solved/?tab=comments#comment-237509
 or Doug Horne to "deduce" that a Professor Emeritus at California State, East Bay (formerly Cal. State Hayward) was operating in 1964 as, or was a 25 years long cover for a CIA assassin because Leo Damore left word that he was, and Peter Janney published it as fact.
........

No one writes frankly about the $$$ influence of Oliver Curme on the "leading lights" of JFK Assassination research. The only one involved who has not seemed to benefit financially (been compromised by, or exhibited the appearance of being compromised by....) from Curme's curious (troubling) largesse is Larry Hancock. The list of those benefiting from Curme's generosity is long, author Lifton seems to be in the top ten, but a loooong way down from Mary Ferrell's family.

This is certainly a sensitive topic, those with any ambition electing to self censor any inclination to publicly plumb its depths!


......I have a bigger mouth than most because I have no rep. or commercial interest or salary from that millionaire, to protect, first and foremost. Once in awhile, I help Mom change the sheets on my wellworn bed!.....

Who the hell is Curme, really? - https://duckduckgo.com/?q=oliver+curme+marijuana&t=h_&ia=web

This may come as a surprise to some, but Dr. John McAdams has actually reacted to the bluntest criticism I have directed towards anyone in the JFK research community, with the least personal pushback.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 06:09:08 PM by Tom Scully »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2020, 06:47:40 PM »
Dylan should have titled his song "Murder Most Fowl."  These two are birds of a feather.  A couple of cuckoos.  Lifton's body alteration nonsense would make UFO abductees blush.  It is outlandish bull.  His intent may be more pure and not derived from mental illness but he arrives at the same destination.  Kooktown.

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Re: Lifton tees off on DiEugenio at Ed Forum
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2020, 06:47:40 PM »