If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?

[Martin Weidmann]

Interesting but wrong. Styles stated they were told to return to the front of the building and Adams stated they traveled in southwest direction.

Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.

Styles: "...We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area...."

-------------------------------------

The Stroud document contained two pieces of info. Garner said she saw Truly and Baker ascend the stairs, and Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor. She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order. It is understandable that the WC would place no importance in the document given they established Styles and Adams movements by establishing known times  to their encounters with fellow employees, officers and radio transmissions. The presented forced fit timeline with time guesstimates proved beyond a doubt the ladies never left the fourth floor as early as stated. The timeline the WC established using known times associated with statements proves they left later than they estimated.

Interesting but wrong. Styles stated they were told to return to the front of the building and Adams stated they traveled in southwest direction.

Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.

Styles: "...We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area...."

And how in the world does this differ from what I have been saying all along?   

Styles and Adams come down the stairs in the north west corner of the building. They left the building via the loading platform at the back and ran towards the railroad yard. Somewhere between the north west corner of the building and the railroad yard a police man told them to return to the building, which they did. They walked in south west direction alongside the west side of the building and it's warehouse extension until they got to the dead end road which runs along side the front of the TSBD and provides access to a parking lot. There they turned left and walked along the parallel road toward the main entrance of the TSBD. When they got there, Styles entered the building straight away and Adams stayed a minute of so to talk to people, which is when she heard the radio message at around 12.36.

This picture, I borrowed from Dan, shows the west side of the building and the warehouse extension.



It shows the loading dock at the back of the TSBD, where Styles and Adams came from and it shows where the dead end parallel road is in front of the TSBD

Now let me ask you this; It would have taken the women at least a minute to get to and down the stairs and another couple of minutes to go around the building. If Victoria Adams was at the main entrance of the TSBD and heard the radio message at around 12.36, how in the world could she (and Styles) have stayed on the 4th floor for 4 minutes after the last shot, like you seem to claim they did?



The Stroud document contained two pieces of info. Garner said she saw Truly and Baker ascend the stairs, and Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor. She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order.

BS... There is no evidence for such an assumption and anybody looking honestly at the timeline based on actual testimony knows it is a physical impossibility to place them in the wrong order.

It is understandable that the WC would place no importance in the document given they established Styles and Adams movements by establishing known times  to their encounters with fellow employees, officers and radio transmissions. The presented forced fit timeline with time guesstimates proved beyond a doubt the ladies never left the fourth floor as early as stated. The timeline the WC established using known times associated with statements proves they left later than they estimated.

Then give us that time line.... Go on then, and make sure Adams is at the front entrance at 12.36 or 12.37..... This should be good.

[John Iacoletti]

I am not assuming that Shelley and Lovelady are lying, I am merely pointing out the fact that they are both lying. They both 'lie by omission' when they leave out going towards the railroad yard, walking up the dead-end street, waiting by the spur track, watching all the police activity, walking through the car park on the west side of the TSBD and entering through the side door of the shipping room. These actions form the majority of their account from the time of the last shot to the time they enter the TSBD and both men deliberately leave it out.

How do you know they deliberately left it out?

Far more amazing than this is the lie they both construct for their WC testimony, again both men lying in exactly the same way although this time its a different type of lie. If you respond to this post John, and I doubt you will, I would like to hear from you, or from anyone on this forum, the reason you think both men deliberately and knowingly insist Gloria Calvery took 3 to 4 minutes to make her way to them even though she was running and even though someone mooching along at a leisurely, Oswald-like 3 mph can cover 132 ft in 30 seconds.

Wait. So you know that they are lying because you somehow know how long it took Calvery to get there, because you know that’s her in Couch? Nice circular argument. What if that’s not Calvery?

Everyone has opinions about who these blobs are. Some people insist that your Lovelady is actually Molina and that Lovelady is already on his way up the Elm extension.

John, I was really put out when someone who I regard as a senior figure in this area of study was so dismissive of my attempts without reason (reply #749), I came back with a solid case for the identification of Calvery in the Larsen/Graves Gif which you then blanked. I now regard this identification of Calvery no longer as compelling. It's solid. This is confirmed by the embarrassingly weak critique you have posted and, unlike you, I will have the decency to respond to it.

I responded. I gave you a list of discrepancies to your “solid case”.

If they left the steps together, then why are the guy you think is Lovelady and the guy you think is Shelley not both on the steps?

I'm pointing out irrefutable examples of Shelley and Lovelady deliberately deceiving the authorities, deliberately twisting the truth of what happened that day and this is your lead question?? Okay. Nowhere does it state Shelley was on the steps when Calvery came running up to them.

You missed the point. In the film clip, your “Lovelady” is still on the steps and your “Shelley” is not. However, Lovelady testified:

Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.

Altgens 6 shows the position on the steps of a white male with a receding hairline identified as Lovelady. Approximately 30 seconds later the Larsen/Graves Gif shows exactly the same thing.

Except for the small detail that this hasn’t been demonstrated to be Lovelady.

In the quote you use Lovelady states that he was "near Mr. Shelley". It doesn't state Shelley was on the steps, why does Shelley need to be on the steps to be near Lovelady?

Because he said they left the steps together.

Shelley said he ran into Calvery across the street

You know as well as I do that in his WC testimony Shelley states the following:

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

So which one is correct? I would argue that his Nov 22 recollection is more solid than his recollection 6 months later.

Everybody knows you know this. Everybody knows you are aware that Shelley makes it absolutely clear in his WC testimony that Calvery runs up to them at the steps and then he and Lovelady run over to the "little, old island" (I love it that they both use exactly this same phrase in their testimonies as if it wasn't clear already they'd got their story straight).

Exactly why you shouldn’t rely on it.

This is what we see in the L/G Gif, Shelley at the steps when Calvery arrives. His point about meeting Calvery across the street in his affidavit can be discarded as can his assertion he immediately ran back into the building and phoned his wife. That you would bring this up when you know it is refuted in the WC testimony is beyond desperate.

Except you haven’t actually proven this is Calvery, or the time period in question.

We don’t know what Calvery was wearing that day

When I first read this point my cheeks reddened with embarrassment for you. You've obviously rolled out the big guns with the first two points of your devastating critique and now we're at the padding. In fact it's cruel to continue this dissection of your post (Anyone standing along that section of Elm would be “close enough to see the blood - ??).

Is this rhetoric supposed to actually address the objection?

The identification of Calvery in the L/G Gif stands.

“Stands”, how exactly?

The Gif captures the moment the distraught Calvery encounters Lovelady on the steps with Shelley nearby. We can time this moment 20-30 seconds after the final shot (more than enough time for Calvery to run the distance. 3 to 4 minutes!! Please).

This is just a restatement of your claim. You don’t know how much time elapsed before Calvery started running, nor do you even know where she was standing. You just decided it took her 20-30 seconds and that Lovelady and Shelley lied about it all based on an unproven claim that a black-scarved blob is Calvery telling another blob you’ve decided is Lovelady about the shooting.

[John Iacoletti]

And I also believe that Brennan's name, age, occupation, and quotes also came from one of his fellow writers, most likely Hugh Aynesworth who admits in his book to overhearing Brennan talking to the police outside the TSBD on 11/22/63, and/or other sources within the DPD.

You can certainly believe that, but there’s not evidence for it.

[Bill Chapman]

If the man Craig saw did indeed come from inside the TSBD this is the probable route:



There is the possibility that this picture captures the Nash Rambler picking up the man Craig saw:




The front of the vehicle is not dissimilar to a '63 Nash Rambler:



If this picture is indeed the Nash Rambler picking up the man Craig saw, it gives a time of 12:40 pm. How does this fit in with Craig's timeline which has been given as 15 minutes?

Buell Frazier said Oswald walked out the back of the TSBD, right past him about 10-15 feet away, headed up Houston and was just crossing Elm when he (Buell) was distracted by something and he (Buell) turned his head away.

That statement was made on C-Span in 2002.
Make what you will of that 39yr gap.

[Gerry Down]

The Stroud document contained two pieces of info. Garner said she saw Truly and Baker ascend the stairs, and Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor. She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order.

BS... There is no evidence for such an assumption and anybody looking honestly at the timeline based on actual testimony knows it is a physical impossibility to place them in the wrong order.

She prob got the order wrong. Happens everyday.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Craig said he saw the man "about" 15 minutes after the shooting.

Nobody has ever explained the presence of the phony Secret Service agents whom Harkness encountered behind the TSBD a few minutes after the shooting. Harkness stipulated that the men told him they were Secret Service agents. He said they were dressed in suits and were "well armed." Whoever they were, they could not have been Secret Service agents.

I would be interested in tracking down the story that some witnesses in the plaza thought they heard a gunshot a few minutes after the assassination.

[Dan O'meara]

"I am not assuming that Shelley and Lovelady are lying, I am merely pointing out the fact that they are both lying. They both 'lie by omission' when they leave out going towards the railroad yard, walking up the dead-end street, waiting by the spur track, watching all the police activity, walking through the car park on the west side of the TSBD and entering through the side door of the shipping room. These actions form the majority of their account from the time of the last shot to the time they enter the TSBD and both men deliberately leave it out."

How do you know they deliberately left it out?

I like that you're not questioning whether they're lying or not but whether they're lying deliberately, as if there was another way of lying.
Here's why I'm convinced they are leaving it out deliberately -
In their WC testimonies both men go into detail about watching the chaotic aftermath of the shooting, wandering down the dead-end road in the direction of the railroad yard, standing around watching all the police activity then re-entering the TSBD through a side-door on the west side of the building. Would it be fair to say all this activity constitutes the majority of their actions between hearing the shots and re-entering the TSBD? Their affidavits are taken on the day of the assassination yet both men have completely omitted this aspect of their actions. This alone makes me suspicious - one man forgets all this, maybe. But both? Hours after the event?
In their affidavits both men give the impression that very shortly after the shots they head straight back into the TSBD through the front entrance. They are deliberately distancing themselves from the side-door on the west side, it is a co-ordinated and concerted effort by both men.
Obviously you state that you favour the affidavits over the WC testimony so you don't believe any of this down towards the railroad yard/watching the police/going in the side-door happened anyway. You believe that Shelley went straight back in and phoned his wife. That's fair enough. I, however don't. Just because there are contradictory statements I don't think it's enough just to choose one over the other. We must try and understand why there are contradictory statements.

"Far more amazing than this is the lie they both construct for their WC testimony, again both men lying in exactly the same way although this time its a different type of lie. If you respond to this post John, and I doubt you will, I would like to hear from you, or from anyone on this forum, the reason you think both men deliberately and knowingly insist Gloria Calvery took 3 to 4 minutes to make her way to them even though she was running and even though someone mooching along at a leisurely, Oswald-like 3 mph can cover 132 ft in 30 seconds."

Wait. So you know that they are lying because you somehow know how long it took Calvery to get there, because you know that’s her in Couch? Nice circular argument. What if that’s not Calvery?

You have so missed the point here it's not even funny. Let me walk you through what's being said:
1) In their WC testimonies both men are saying that Calvery ran up to them (1st event) then they saw Baker and Truly at the steps (2nd event)
2) In their WC testimonies both men say it took at least 3 minutes for Calvery to come running up to them

The point you are missing is this - both men are saying it took Truly and Baker at least 3 minutes to reach the steps of the TSBD!!
We know for a fact that is a lie. You must surely be able to see this. We know from Couch and Darnell and multiple testimonies that Baker reaches the TSBD steps approximately 20 - 30 seconds after the final shot. We can be absolutely certain of this. But Shelley and Lovelady are both saying it was at least 3 minutes before this happened. They have been caught red-handed in a lie, both telling the same, deliberate co-ordinated lie just as they did in their affidavits but this time it was not a 'lie of omission'. There is no circular argument here!
This is enough to irrefutably demonstrate they are lying but there is one more detail. When both men refer to Calvery in their WC testimonies they consistently refer to her running. How long do you think it would take to run from the location of the assassination to the steps of the TSBD? Remember, a person slowly walking 3mph can cover over 130 ft in 30 seconds.

"If they left the steps together, then why are the guy you think is Lovelady and the guy you think is Shelley not both on the steps?

I'm pointing out irrefutable examples of Shelley and Lovelady deliberately deceiving the authorities, deliberately twisting the truth of what happened that day and this is your lead question?? Okay. Nowhere does it state Shelley was on the steps when Calvery came running up to them."

You missed the point. In the film clip, your “Lovelady” is still on the steps and your “Shelley” is not. However, Lovelady testified:

Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.

This is semantics gone mad. A completely irrelevant detail blown up out of all proportion demonstrating an overwhelming inability to bring anything serious to the table. Not that it matters but I'll walk you through how you are getting even this bit of trivia wrong.
Ball is asking Lovelady "whom you left the steps with". The 'you' in this question obviously refers to Lovelady. Ball is asking who Lovelady was with when he left the steps to which he answers 'Mr Shelley'. The only person who needs to be on the steps here is Lovelady, that is how English works. You are making the assumption that Shelley has to be on the steps. The problem you are having is with the word 'with'. Shelley is stood very close to Lovelady but is not on the steps. They are still 'with' each. When Lovelady leaves the steps to walk away he is 'with' Shelley. This does not mean Shelley has to be on the steps, just as we see in the L/G gif.
There is another argument where the steps are being used a reference point but I cannot be bothered wasting any more of my life on this nonsense. It doesn't matter how much I spoon feed you on this you still won't accept what I'm saying.

I won't be dealing with any more of your points as they mean nothing. I've put an excellent argument forward to identify Calvery in the L/G Gif. If you want to argue the points I've made in a serious way I'm all for it but if you want to carry on with this nit-picking childishness I won't be bothering. I'm hear to learn and be challenged and to try and move forward somehow. I'm not hear to bicker with someone with an entrenched mentality who has already decided they are the chosen one with all the answers. If anyone really knew what was going on none of us would be here.

[Martin Weidmann]

She prob got the order wrong. Happens everyday.

So, Dorothy Garner could get the order wrong (for which there is no evidence) but Victoria Adams couldn't get wrong where and when she had seen Lovelady and Shelley (for which there is plenty of evidence)?