If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?

[Colin Crow]

In this scenario, who takes the east elevator down to the 5th as Truly and Baker ascend the stairs?

It can't be Williams as he is already on the 5th before the shooting starts. If both elevators are on the 5th when Truly and Baker start up the stairs I can see Dougherty calling the west elevator up from the 5th to the 6th where he waits until Truly gets Baker in the east elevator on the 5th to go straight up to the 7th, avoiding Dougherty (and assassins?) on the 6th. It's only after Truly and Baker hit the roof that Dougherty descends to the 1st.

The "official" version requires Dougherty to be the west elevator controller in the minutes following the shooting. He is required to leave the gates open so that it is not able to be "called" remotely by Truly.

[Colin Crow]

Been thinking about this as it is important to establish the order people used the elevators. Apart from the assassin(s) we know four TSBD employees are up on the 5th and 6th floors at the time of the assassination. Jarman and Norman arrive together and must be considered a single entity for these purposes. It seems clear from the testimonies Williams is up there first - he washes up, gets his lunch from the Domino room, heads back up stopping to get pop from 2nd floor lunchroom. He uses the east elevator.

I would place Dougherty next - he goes down, eats his lunch in the Domino room then 'returns to work' after "just a short length of time". He uses the west elevator.

Jarman and Norman don't go up to the 5th floor until shortly before the motorcade arrives in Dealey Plaza. Hank Norman notes that they were outside until they heard news that the motorcade was on Main St., some time after 12:23 (the only reference I can find to this is a second-hand one from "Reclaiming History" pg34-37). This ties in with Jarman's recollection of standing outside "until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25." This has Jarman and Norman arriving at the elevators about "12:25 or 12:28" as he states in his WC testimony. The big problem with this scenario is that both elevators should be up on 6 but they're not. Jarman is adamant the east elevator is up on 6 giving the strong impression the west elevator is on the 1st floor when he and Norman get on it. There is no mention of calling the west elevator down.
Need to figure out who uses the west elevator before Jarman and Norman get there. Obviously someone coming down to the 1st floor from a higher floor.

Some points to consider. If Dougherty goes back to work, getting stock from the upper floors, using the west elevator He does so after Jarman and Norman ascend. I agree with your timeline regarding the movements of Jarman and Norman. Truly mentions seeing them depart the front of the TSBD with Givens, crossing Houston then returning to go to the back of the building. Seems they changed their minds leaving Givens to continue alone to the parking lot.

The Dr Pepper machine was on the first floor near the back stairs. If the bottle was his he did not need to visit the second floor lunchroom.

The first time Williams mentioned his trip to the 6th floor was to the FBI on 11/23. On that occasion he said he used the back stairs to go down to join Jarman and Norman. His 'story" would evolve significantly over the succeeding months. 

I recollect a statement by Frazier that he and Jack went to the front of the building late to watch the parade. Jack gave his reasons for changing his mind and going to work instead.

[Colin Crow]

Another thought - it can be established with a fair amount of confidence that Jarman and Norman are in position on the 5th not long before the motorcade arrives on Houston, (somewhere between 2 - 4 minutes). Williams arrives after hearing movement on the floor beneath. By the time he gets down to the 5th there can only be seconds to spare before the motorcade arrives, in his affidavit he is clear the motorcade turns onto Houston just after he gets there. The upshot of this is that Williams is on the 6th 'having his lunch' for a lot longer than previously thought by some. He gives the time he goes down as approximately 12:20. It was more like 12:29.

It appears that Williams arrived on the 5th floor briefly before the motorcade arrived.

[Colin Crow]

This makes sense, Mr O'Meara. 

However! Mr Williams' extreme inconsistency across his various statements makes me wonder whether he ever went up to that sixth floor at all (after breaking for lunch).

Mr Arnold Rowland's WC testimony suggests an alternative scenario.

Mr Rowland is shown CE 356 and asked to mark it------------------



Then we get this-----------------

Mr. SPECTER - You testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit 356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?
Mr. ROWLAND - There was either two or three people in this window.
Mr. SPECTER - Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.

Note---------------this is the southeast window of the fifth floor (directly under the SN window)----------------------the same place Mr Williams will be at the time of the shooting--------------------but the time Mr Rowland is talking about is ~12.15.

Then we get this-----------------

Mr. SPECTER - How about the windows in the group marked "B," was either of those windows open?
Mr. ROWLAND - They were both completely open.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you describe with any more particularity the people you saw in the window which you have marked "B"?
Mr. ROWLAND - There was a white man hanging out either "G" or "B," I do not remember which. He was the only white man, besides the man in these windows that I saw--
Mr. SPECTER - When you said "these windows" you mean the first window you marked with a black circle and a black arrow?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.

So-------------Mr Rowland is certain that there were people at window 'B', but uncertain as to whether one of them was white.

Mr. SPECTER - Is there anything else you can tell us about the people you saw in window "B"?
Mr. ROWLAND - I think to the best of my recollection there was either two or three people in window "B," and as I stated before, either "B" or "G" had a white man in the window. I do not remember which. I do remember it was one of the windows on the corner.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you recollect if the other people in window "B" were white or Negro?
Mr. ROWLAND - They were Negro.

So----------------Mr Rowland is certain that two black men were in window 'B' at ~12.15.

Suggestion:

The two black men seen by Mr Rowland in window "B" at ~12.15 were Mr Bonnie Ray Williams and... Mr Eddie Piper.

Cf! This from Mr Piper's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - Did you at any time go above the fourth floor on that date?
Mr. PIPER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you at any time go that day up above the fourth floor?
Mr. PIPER - No--no, sir.
Mr. BALL - You never did---either before or after the shots?
Mr. PIPER - No, sir.

Something is worrying Mr Ball!

Picture the scene: Messrs Jarman & Norman are down on the street in front of the building. At around 12.23, they notice Mr Williams up on the fifth floor (or: he calls down to them) and they decide to go up and join him.

Alan, the 2 people are likely Jarman and Norman who arrived around 12.25. Before they arrived the windows were closed so it is likely that Rowland looked back around the time of the ambulance leaving (12.25).

[Gerry Down]

I recollect a statement by Frazier that he and Jack went to the front of the building late to watch the parade. Jack gave his reasons for changing his mind and going to work instead.

Do you have a source for that statement by Frazier? I've never heard him ever mention he had been talking to Dougherty at all that day. He never seems to mention Dougherty at all.

[Colin Crow]

Do you have a source for that statement by Frazier? I've never heard him ever mention he had been talking to Dougherty at all that day. He never seems to mention Dougherty at all.

Gerry it might have been in one of Frazier's oral histories or interviews. When I heard it, it made sense as Frazier went outside late and simply stood at the top of the steps. I will search my notes to see if I recorded the source.

[Gerry Down]

Gerry it might have been in one of Frazier's oral histories or interviews. When I heard it, it made sense as Frazier went outside late and simply stood at the top of the steps. I will search my notes to see if I recorded the source.

Thanks. Its a good idea to keep notes and records cos there is just so much data to sift through when examining this case.

My understanding is that Frazier went out early enough to the front steps. Doughertys claim before the WC was that it was so crowded outside the door that he didn't bother going out. That suggests there was a separation between the two. Dougherty was probably still eating in the domino room when Frazier went out. However if Dougherty and Arce were eating together, and Arce made it outside ok to watch the motorcade, that means Doughtery must have been on his own in the domino room finishing his lunch, then got up and saw that it was too crowded to attempt to go outside.

[Colin Crow]

Thanks. Its a good idea to keep notes and records cos there is just so much data to sift through when examining this case.

My understanding is that Frazier went out early enough to the front steps. Doughertys claim before the WC was that it was so crowded outside the door that he didn't bother going out. That suggests there was a separation between the two. Dougherty was probably still eating in the domino room when Frazier went out. However if Dougherty and Arce were eating together, and Arce made it outside ok to watch the motorcade, that means Doughtery must have been on his own in the domino room finishing his lunch, then got up and saw that it was too crowded to attempt to go outside.

I found these.....

56:50 Got on the steps late...after 12.25 – didn’t see ambulance

Interview with Gary Mack 2002

And

39:10 did not see Belknap ambulance

HSCA interview

Still looking but it appears that Frazier did not venture onto the steps until after most of the other employees. This included Arce who claimed to have eaten lunch with Dougherty.