If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?

[Martin Weidmann]

Your timeline has Adams and Styles running down the stairs at lighting speed and out the back door before Truly and Baker come in. That is possible in my opinion and they just got out the back door before Baker and Truly saw them. That puts Adams and Styles at the loading dock at about 12:31. From here Adams said she ran around the west side of the building, went to the front door, listened to a motorcycle radio and then went inside. If she ran out the rear door at 12:31, you have the problem of her claiming to run around the building but the timeline allows too much time - 6 minutes to do that. Something is off on her recollection of time.

They didn't get her to do a reenactment because they knew she had stayed at the window longer than she remembered. And if they left her do a reenactment of running from the window immediately, it would be a false reenactment. Better to have no reenactment rather than a false reenactment.

From here Adams said she ran around the west side of the building, went to the front door, listened to a motorcycle radio and then went inside.

Again, you skip the railway yard;

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct?
And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you go from there?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded--which way is east and west?
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you come back by way of the street, or did you come back the same entrance you went out?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - You went back in through the front entrance, through the front of the building?
Miss ADAMS - Well, I didn't go back in right away.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then? There is a street that would be a continuation of Elm Street that goes in front of the building, and Elm Street itself angles into the freeway. Did you go back either of those streets?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got there?
Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot.
There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.

If she ran out the rear door at 12:31, you have the problem of her claiming to run around the building but the timeline allows too much time - 6 minutes to do that.

Nope.. that is not too much time.... She first had to go to the other side of the loading platform (near Houston street) to get off the platform, because that's where the only stairs are. She then had to walk back and pass the entire building again in the direction of the railway yard, where she got stopped by police. That could easily have taken 3 minutes or so. She then had to walk passed the side of the building towards the front and then walk all the way up to the front door. She also talked briefly with some co-workers. That also could easily have taken 3 tot 4 minutes. There is nothing wrong with the time line.

They didn't get her to do a reenactment because they knew she had stayed at the window longer than she remembered. And if they left her do a reenactment of running from the window immediately, it would be a false reenactment. Better to have no reenactment rather than a false reenactment.

Actually, no they didn't know that at all. There was no such information available to the WC. The re-enactment was done prior to the testimony of Marion Baker and Victoria Adams. Which begs the question, if they did not want her in the re-enactment, because she had nothing of evidentiary value to offer, then why did they call her to testify at all?

[Jack Nessan]

Adams is absolutely insistent and consistent on one point in every statement she ever made concerning her actions that day - she started heading for the stairs within seconds of the final shot and she was running. This is corroborated by subsequent statements made by both Styles and Garner. She is also consistent in saying she saw no-one on the stairs.
We know from the Couch and Darnell films Shelley and Lovelady were out front of the TSBD when Baker reached the foot of the steps outside the front entrance.
If we accept this evidence we must come to the conclusion that Adams could not possibly have seen Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. It's impossible.
So we are left with two main possibilities - Adams lied about seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor or this part of her WC testimony was added without her knowledge.
Lets look at motives. Why would Adams lie about this detail? I have no idea why she might do this but would be glad to hear some wild speculation about it. Why would the WC lie about this detail? I think that's obvious - to make it appear that Adams and Styles could not have been on the stairs at the same time as Oswald.
When Garner reached her office door Adams and Styles were already clattering down the 'very noisy' wooden stairs, she heard them clearly. She then moved closer to the area of the stairs where she would have and unobstructed view of anyone opening the door of the stairs coming down from the fifth floor and crossing the floor to go down the stairs to the third. More importantly, she would have heard anyone coming down. She was there moments later when Baker came up those same stairs. Oswald never came down those stairs. Adams never saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. Of these things we can be certain.

Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sergeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. How LHO slipped past the 4th floor is a matter of conjecture, but Adam's and Styles were still on the 4th floor when he went past it.

Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

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This is confirmed by Inspector Sawyer:

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.

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Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

[Martin Weidmann]

Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sergeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. How LHO slipped past the 4th floor is a matter of conjecture, but Adam's and Styles were still on the 4th floor when he went past it.

Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

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This is confirmed by Inspector Sawyer:

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.

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Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sergeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. How LHO slipped past the 4th floor is a matter of conjecture, but Adam's and Styles were still on the 4th floor when he went past it.

I'm not sure what it is that you are trying to say here, but there are two observations to be made.

(1) Adams said that a policeman sent her back to the TSBD when she arrived at the railway yard! It wasn't Harkness who stopped her, because if he had, she would never have been able to get to the railway yard.

(2) If Harkness sealed of the back if the building within 6 minutes after the shooting, it means that Adams & Styles as well as Shelley & Lovelady must have re-entered the building before Harkness sealed it off. In other words, within 6 minutes after the shooting. After that they wouldn't have been allowed back in, as happened to Givens when he tried to re-enter.

So Harkness sealing off the back of the building only strengthens the argument that Adams & Styles must indeed have left the 4th floor immediately after the last shot, because otherwise they would not have been able to make it back in time prior to the building being sealed off.

[Gerry Down]

She first had to go to the other side of the loading platform (near Houston street) to get off the platform, because that's where the only stairs are. She then had to walk back and pass the entire building again in the direction of the railway yard, where she got stopped by police. That could easily have taken 3 minutes or so. She then had to walk passed the side of the building towards the front and then walk all the way up to the front door. She also talked briefly with some co-workers. That also could easily have taken 3 tot 4 minutes. There is nothing wrong with the time line.

You're reading something into her testimony that is not there. The loading dock applies to the whole area at the north face of the TSBD, not just the little platform area at the north east side.

She did not cross over the dock area on the north east side, she went down the little stairs that has a door on it, then around the west side of the building.

[Martin Weidmann]

You're reading something into her testimony that is not there. The loading dock applies to the whole area at the north face of the TSBD, not just the little platform area at the north east side.

She did not cross over the dock area on the north east side, she went down the little stairs that has a door on it, then around the west side of the building.

You're reading something into her testimony that is not there.

No, I am not. The whole thing is self-evident. When you look at the lay out of the first floor, you'll see that the stairs are on the north west side in the back of the building with the doorway facing an elevator. Inbetween the door of the stairs and the elevator is a loading door, which is the one Adams and Styles used to leave the building. She told FBI agents Hardin & Scott on 11/24/63 she turned left to leave the building, which is exactly where that loading door is.

But then they needed to get off the platform and the only stairs they could use were next to Houston Street dock, on the north east side of the building. To get from the stairs inside the building to the stairs to get of the loading dock they had to walk from one side of the building to the other, regardless if they did so inside the building or on the loading platform. The reason why the women did not encounter Truly and Baker is because they went out the building to the left at roughly the same time Truly and Baker were passing to elevators to run to the stairs inside the building!

In this video I borrowed from Colin Crow, at around 57 seconds, the loading door between the stairs and the elevator can be seen. In the video the door is closed, but on 11/22/63 it was open.

 

The video, which was shot at the TSBD, clearly shows how the elevator block obscures the view from the stairs into the shipping area. There is no way that Adams and Styles could have seen anybody from the stairs exit.

[Martin Weidmann]

This floor plan supports Martin's scenario as the NW corner of the building blocks access to the western part of the loading dock,

https://i.servimg.com/u/f39/18/50/79/06/1st_fl10.jpg

No matter how they twist and turn things, the only logical explanation is that Adams and Styles did indeed leave the 4th floor after the last shot, just like they said they did.

Had they stayed four or five minutes later, they would have encountered men coming up the stairs and they probably wouldn't have been able to leave the building. They most certainly wouldn't have made it back in time, from a round trip around the building, to re-enter it before Harkness and two other officers sealed of the back between 12.36 and 12.37.

12.30.00 Last shot
12.30.30 Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor in the North West corner
              Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the building and making their way to the railway yard.

12:31.00 Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor and leave the building through the loading door
              At the same time Truly and Baker pass the elevator block on the first floor and run towards the stairs, just missing the women

12.33.30 Adams and Styles arrive at the railway yard and are stopped by a police officer who sent them back to the building

12.35.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the front entrance of the building and Adams overhears a radio report

12.36.00 Adams and Styles re-enter the building just prior to it being closed off by Harkness
              When she enters the building Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady, who have just entered the building themselves

12.37.00 Harkness seals off the building

The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.

I challenge anybody to come up with a similar timeline that starts with Adams and Styles leaving the 4th floor 4 to 5 minutes after the shots and still incorporates all the available information correctly.

[Gerry Down]

Inbetween the door of the stairs and the elevator is a loading door, which is the one Adams and Styles used to leave the building.

That door, which was an overhead closing door, was closed on Nov 22nd 1963. I'm pretty sure i read that somewhere in someone elses testimony.

She told FBI agents Hardin & Scott on 11/24/63 she turned left to leave the building, which is exactly where that loading door is.

I think by that what is meant that when she reached the outside, she did a loop left around the pointed end of the loading dock. That is then where she met the police officer.

[Martin Weidmann]

That door, which was an overhead closing door, was closed on Nov 22nd 1963. I'm pretty sure i read that somewhere in someone elses testimony.

I think by that what is meant that when she reached the outside, she did a loop left around the pointed end of the loading dock. That is then where she met the police officer.

You really need to think things through a bit better....

That door, which was an overhead closing door, was closed on Nov 22nd 1963. I'm pretty sure i read that somewhere in someone elses testimony.

Well, then produce that testimony. Not that it matters much for the timeline... the stairs are on the North West side of the building and the stairs to get off the loading platform are near Houston street at the North East side of the building. The women still had to walk from one side of the building to the other. The only difference would be that, if they walked inside the building rather than on the loading dock, they would have encountered Truly and Baker, which they didn't.

I think by that what is meant that when she reached the outside, she did a loop left around the pointed end of the loading dock. That is then where she met the police officer.

Yes the women had to do a loop around the pointed end of the loading dock in order to be able to walk towards the railway area. You can think all you like, but nowhere in her testimony or statements to investigators does Adams say she met the police officer at the pointed end of the loading dock.

And that also doesn't make any sense at all, as she does say that she returned to the building by walking passed the front towards the main entrance on Elm. In order to do that she first had to have been North West of the building somewhere in the railway yard. If a police man had stopped her at the pointed end of the loading dock, she would never have gotten to the railway yard, and thus never be able to walk back on the road in the front of the building. So, no... you are wrong.