If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?

[John Iacoletti]

For god sake, Martin. Give me a xxxxing break! Look at the xxxxing picture! Stop seeing conspiracy EVERYWHERE!

Who said anything about a "conspiracy" with regard to the Hertz clock?  Or that something was "sinister" about it?

[Martin Weidmann]

For god sake, Martin. Give me a xxxxing break! Look at the xxxxing picture! Stop seeing conspiracy EVERYWHERE! And now with a sinister "incorrect" clock?! Jesus!

I never said that the clock was incorrect. Since you rely on the clock being accurate it is justified to ask you how you know that clock was absolutely correct.

It has nothing to do with seeing a conspiracy anywhere. LNs have been claiming for years that the clock Markham relied on, the watch Bowley relied on and the clocks at the hospital where Tippit died were all not accurate, so why can't the same question not be raised about the clock on top of the TSBD?

[Dan O'meara]

When Truly and Baker arrive at the double freight elevator shaft both elevators appear to be stopped at the 5th floor. It's approximately 40 -50 seconds after the final shot:

Mr. BELIN. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This elevator over hero
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one?
Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the fifth floor. Also, the east elevator-- as far as I can tell--both of them were on the fifth floor at that time.

This is, more or less, confirmed by Baker:

Mr. BELIN - What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft?
Mr. BAKER - At that time I thought there was just one elevator there, you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it was just one, when I looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from three to four floors up.
Mr. BELIN - Was either elevator moving at the time or--pardon me, was there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear any elevator moving?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Mr. Truly pushed the button, I believe you said.
Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN - When he pushed the button did any elevator start moving?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - When you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft?
Mr. BAKER - Like I say, I thought it was one elevator there and it was covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one.
Mr. BELIN - It didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir.

The point being both elevators are together a few floors up. After the 'Lunchroom Encounter' both men make their way up to the 5th floor to find one of the elevators is gone:

Mr. TRULY. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on that floor.
Mr. BELIN. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the east elevator.

Truly is a bit nonplussed as to how this can be, he assumes it must be one of the boys getting stock, which would be slightly unusual as the lunch break hasn't yet finished. I will give a rough approximation of 4 minutes from the time of the last shot to Truly and Baker reaching the 5th floor:

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.

On the way down Truly has a recollection of seeing Dougherty working during his lunch break. I will give a rough approximation of 6 minutes between the final shot and this sighting of Dougherty on the 5th floor.

Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. I didn't look.
Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side.
Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?
Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it at an angle.
Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth floor, or were you facing the east?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only intent on getting to the seventh floor.
Mr. BELIN. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or not an elevator was there?
Mr. TRULY. I cannot.
Mr. BELIN. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?
Mr. TRULY. I was not aware of it.

When Truly gets on the elevator on the 5th floor he's not sure where the missing elevator might be. He's certain it not on the seventh after getting off there but it could possibly be on the 6th floor. There is only one person I am aware of that testifies to the use of the elevators in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. In his affidavit, taken on the day of the assassination, Jack Dougherty makes the following statement:

"I had already gone back to work and I gone down on the fifth [sic] to get some stock when I heard a shot. It sounded like it was coming from inside the building, but I couldn't tell from where. I went down on the first floor, and asked a man named Eddie Piper if he had heard anything and he said yes, that he had heard three shots. I then went back on the sixth floor."

Even though the lunch break wasn't finished, even though the President of the United States was driving by the front of the building he was working in and even though almost all his colleagues were watching, Jack decides to go back to work (maybe he wasn't a big JFK fan). He states he was working and that he had "gone down to the 5th" (from the 6th floor??) when he heard a shot. To my mind what follows is really bizarre - he is convinced the sound of the shot is coming from inside the building, he rides down to the 1st floor, asks Piper if he heard anything, Piper tells him he heard 3 shots so Jack heads back to the 6th floor!! When he says he goes back to the 6th is he confirming that he was originally on the 6th before the shots occurred (gone down to the fifth)?
Was he on the fifth at all? Bonnie Ray Wiliams, Hank Norman and Junior Jarman didn't mention him. Was Dougherty on the 6th when the shooting took place?
We know Dougherty was on the fifth when Truly and Baker were coming down, maybe he was just dropping the assassin off on the first floor

[Dan O'meara]

Should have added this. Dougherty puts himself on 6th floor in WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - Now, you were on the first floor in the domino room when you finished your lunch, didn't you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And did you stay there any length of time after you finished your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir---just a short length of time.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

[Tim Nickerson]

The points Tim raises seem quite minor. I don't see why a young women running can't make it to the top of the stairs from the window in 15 seconds. Even with heels on. Garner may not be an eye-witness to Adams and Styles descending the stairs but she is certainly an ear-witness as she can hear them clattering down the noisy wooden stairs as she comes out of her office.

It's possible, I suppose. However, they would have really had to be flying.And tearing down those wooden stairs in their three inch heeled shoes they would have been making a racket. If they left as early as Adams recalled, then Oswald would have simply followed behind them.

[Dan O'meara]

If Oswald was higher up coming down the stairs there's no way they would've heard him while they were clattering down enclosed wooden steps wearing high heels. Truly makes the point he wouldn't have heard the elevator being used for the same reason. Oswald's real obstacle would be getting past Garner on the fourth without making the same kind of noise.

[Tim Nickerson]

You have Adams and Styles at the stairwell 30 seconds after the shooting ended. In order to have them there that soon, you have to disregard Adams' time of 15 seconds of staying at the window.

2 comments, Tim.

Victoria Adams talked to Barry Ernest 35 years after the event. I'm not sure how much value can be placed on a time estimate after all that time. But more importantly, Adams told the FBI on 11/24/63 that she and Styles went down the stairs immediately after the last shot. She said something similar to Jim Leavelle on 02/07/64 and again to the FBI on 03/23/64 and she repeated it again in her testimony. And Sandra Styles told the FBI on 03/19/64 she and Adams left "at that time" after hearing the shots and seeing people running.

Having just read Victoria Adams' testimony again, she does say at some point that she left the window after "between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately, but she's hardly firm on the subject.

Secondly, I used as a guide, for the 30 seconds to get to the stairs, the time trial done by Discovery's "unsolved history"

In it, they timed "Oswald" as needing 27 seconds to get to the stairwell. I used 30 seconds just to be on the safe side. However, "Oswald" had to walk the distance of the building from the South East corner (the sniper's nest) to nearly the North West corner as boxes block his way for a short cut. He then had to turn left and walk from the East side of the building to the West side.

Adams and Styles, on the other hand, were situated in the middle between the East and West of the building with behind them a door that lead from the office space directly into the storage room behind it. The distance they had to walk was considerably less than "Oswald"

I measured it in Gimp. Adams and Styles would have travelled about 93% of the distance that Oswald would have. So, no, not considerably less.

Mr. BELIN - Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. BELIN - When you got into the stockroom, where did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went to the back stairs.
Mr. BELIN - Are there any other stairs that lead down from the fourth floor other than those back stairs in the rear of the stockroom?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Those stairs would be in the northwest comer of the building, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I was running. We were running.

In the Discovery video "Oswald" needs only 17 seconds to walk the distance of the building from South East to North East. Adams and Styles could walk in a straight line to the stairs, as the 4th floor storage space was empty (if I recall correctly), and thus would have only required some 17 seconds to get there. They could indeed easily have stayed at the window for a few seconds and still be at the entrance of the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot.

The other thing is that Dorothy Garner never saw them go down the stairs.

Actually, we don't really know what Garner saw or not. The Stroud letter only tells us that;

"after miss Adams went downstairs she (miss Garner) saw mr Truly and the police man come up."

Garner was with Adams and Styles at the window. When the girls went to the stairs she followed them from the office to the storage space. There is no reason to assume that she did not see them go down the stairs.

When Mrs Garner said that when the girls went to the stairs she followed them from the office to the storage space, she also said that they had already started heading down. She never saw them enter the stairwell.

[Tim Nickerson]

Tim,

The women would only have to cover nearly half the distance than anybody on the 6th floor. The discovery video and the official reconstruction has "Oswald" walking from the sniper's nest in the south east corner towards the north east corner and just before he got there, turning to the left to go towards the stairs in the north west corner.

Adams and Styles were in the middle of the 4th floor, behind one of the center windows. All they had to do is turn around and walk out of the office through the door directly behind them. That would have gotten them in the storage space, where at that time no boxes were stored, making it possible from them to walk in a straight line to the stairwell.

I have Oswald's path marked in orange. There was no door directly behind Adams and Styles.