If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?

[Colin Crow]

A bit of a reach, Mr Crow!

Just trying to provide a possible reason for Rowland to describe someone wearing green and red clothing.

Can we agree that at least one TSBD employee had some encounter with an assassin or conspirator on the 6th floor before the shooting?

[Alan Ford]

Or...

Williams is a co-conspirator who has to own up to it being his lunch because his fingerprints were probably found on the bottle that was tested for fingerprints but was discarded because they weren't Oswald's.

Mr Williams' fingerprints were possibly found on the bottle. Just as possible that A.N.Other's (non-employee) were found on it--------and that this was the reason it was discarded...

There is no real evidence the chicken bones/bottle had anything to do with Mr Williams---or even, for that matter, the assassination. His strained attempts in his WC testimony to tie himself to them are a complete mess.

This amazingly important evidence was then destroyed. Mooney places the half eaten chicken in the SN, indicating Williams was interrupted having his lunch. Interrupted by the unexpected arrival of Jarman and Norman on the fifth which he has to check out. This doesn't happen until very close to the arrival of the motorcade on Houston (Norman, Jarman and Truly testify to the late decision to go up to the fifth floor). He arrives at the 5th floor window seconds before the motorcade turns off Main Street and has to take control of the situation.
Wiliams' excuse for being up on the 6th floor is that the others had talked about going up there to watch the motorcade, something that nobody else confirms. He made it up to justify his presence there.
Jarman and Norman are forced into lying about where Williams was. Givens is forced into lying about seeing Oswald on the 6th
Williams was sat in the SN with an assassin, very probably the man with the rifle Rowland saw.

IMO 

Your scenario does have the large merit of internal coherence, Mr O'Meara, but pinning Mr Williams as a co-conspirator seems to me to leave unaddressed a number of issues, such as the lack of fit between Mr Williams and Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'; Mr Rowland's sighting of two black men at the fifth floor window ~12.15pm; the improbability/absurdity of his claimed lunchtime victuals (chicken-on-the-bone sandwich); the lucky happenstance of Messrs Norman & Jarman deciding to go up to the fifth and not sixth floor (the more obvious vantage point, with or without any prior discussion amongst co-workers); Mr Williams' utter failure (odd in a co-conspirator) to say anything to incriminate Mr Oswald.

My read on Mr Williams is that the poor guy was majorly spooked out by something he saw shortly before the assassination--------or rather: it spooked him out once the assassination happened and he realised its true significance. And I suspect he was not the only employee to have had this experience.

FWIW! 

[Alan Ford]

As for the claim about employees mentioning returning to the 6th floor to watch, as far as I know only Williams mentioned this and he claimed Lovelady and Arce were involved.

Fair point, Mr Crow, but one could let it cut the other way-------------i.e. that Mr Williams was the only one to let slip what employees had arranged. Isn't it odd that other floors (5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd) were chosen by employees as vantage points but not the sixth-------which just so happened to be the floor where the action would be? I find it highly unlikely that this would have been left to chance. The weapon-holding man spotted by Mr Rowland at the southwest window sounds like a member of an assassination team secure in the knowledge that the floor belongs to them.

I don’t know exactly what happened. All I can try and show is that the official statements, when analysed, are not consistent with the final version of events that appear in the Warren Report. Also Williams, Norman and Jarman lied repeatedly about Williams movements, the former's story diverging significantly from the other two from Nov 23 until the time of their appearance before the commission. This occurred just after Ball and Belin travelled to Dallas to "sort things out" for the lone nut scenario.

We are in full concurrence, Mr Crow, about the tremendous significance both of Mr Rowland's testimony and of the problems with Mr Williams' ever-evolving story! 

[Gerry Down]

the lucky happenstance of Messrs Norman & Jarman deciding to go up to the fifth and not sixth floor (the more obvious vantage point, with or without any prior discussion amongst co-workers); Mr Williams' utter failure (odd in a co-conspirator) to say anything to incriminate Mr Oswald.

I sense a slight racial profiling there. Three black men together - must be up to something. Actually the three guys gave televised interviews over the years. That's a strong indication that they had done nothing wrong. Guilty people do not give televised interviews, they tend to avoid interviews like the plague.

One escape route that Oswald (or someone else if Oswald was innocent) could have used to escape from the 6th floor was on top of one of the elevators. If both elevators were on the 5th floor at the time of the shooting, as recalled by Baker and Truly, couldn't a 6th floor assassin simply have opened the elevator gate on the 6th floor and climbed onto the roof of the elevators. He could then ride the elevator down to the 1st floor (which is what Dougherty did) which would enable Oswald to get off on the floor above which was the second floor.

This might explain why Oswald then ran into the 2nd floor lunch room ahead of Baker and Truly for the 2nd floor lunch room encounter to take place.

[Colin Crow]

I sense a slight racial profiling there. Three black men together - must be up to something. Actually the three guys gave televised interviews over the years. That's a strong indication that they had done nothing wrong. Guilty people do not give televised interviews, they tend to avoid interviews like the plague.

No racial profiling Gerry just conflicting statements that required clarification. A summary of each appear below with respect to the three at the fists floor window.

Jarman

11/23/63 DPD
"At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade."

11/24/63 FBI
He was on 5th floor with Williams and Norman when the parade passed.

12/2/63 SS
The floor laying crew came down just before noon. After eating his lunch he went with Williams and Jarman to fifth floor.  

1/14/64 FBI
In this statement he claimed he ate his lunch with Williams and Norman on the first floor after noon. This is reinforced by saying that the other two were in his company the whole time they were on the first floor. He recalls they took the west elevator up to the fifth floor about 12.25.

Norman

11/26/63 FBI
As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.

12/4/63 SS
"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me."

1/14/64 FBI
He went outside with Jarman for a few minutes then went to the fifth floor on the west elevator about 12.10 to 12.20. Williams joined him and Jarman.

18/3/64 FBI
He simply states he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and he felt the shots occurred at this time. One might argue it might be a curious attempt to allow Williams to be clear of the 6th floor by 12.15pm. At this time again there was no indication that Williams joined them at the window.

Williams

11/22/63 DPD
In his initial statement nothing about visiting the 6th floor to eat lunch that day. He stated that the shots came from above. The floor laying crew were all brought in for questioning that day because they worked on that floor. We can conclude he is aware the 6th floor is a "spot of keen interest" to the police yet does not  mention that he had been there. His statement implies that after leaving the 6th floor to break for lunch he went to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman and that they were there only a short time before the shooting.

11/23/63 FBI
Williams now tells of the lunch trip to the 6th floor. There are no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He claimed he went back upstairs about 12. His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes before joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor.

12/2/63 SS
Williams collected his lunch from the first floor and went to the 6th floor. He sat at windows "in the centre of the building". A Dr Pepper bottle and chicken bones  (no mention of a lunch bag) were left together on the floor. He didn't see or hear anyone and only ate his lunch for a few minutes. The lunch was "finished" and he left immediately for the 5th floor prior to 12.15pm. (Note 12.15 is mentioned specifically!).

1/8/64 FBI
Williams again stated he ate lunch on the 6th floor at noon. Once again he recalled staying only a few minutes, leaving at 12.05pm,  before joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor. In this interview he told for the first time that the motivation for going down was that he heard them below. According to this revised timeline he  spends about 25 minutes with them before the motorcade arrived. Compare this with his first day statement, taken just 3 hours after the shots, where he stated that "just after we got on the 5th floor the motorcade arrived". In this report he further distanced himself from 12.15pm by effectively moving his departure time from the 6th floor from 12.13 to 12.05!

March 18th Internal Memorandum: Belin and Ball to Willens

In this extensive memorandum in the lead up to key witnesses testifying before the Commission, Ball and Belin ask the following questions on page 4.

Ball and Belin asked for clarification regarding the contents of the lunch, where it was eaten and whether it was in the sack. They wanted to know if Williams saw anyone while eating the lunch and what time he arrived on the 5th floor. They also wanted to know if there were fingerprints on the sack.

Understandably, these are some of the same questions anyone would have after reading his statements when compared to those of the numerous DPD officers who described the "assassins' lunch" in the SN upon  arrival and those of his workmates (see above).

[Alan Ford]

This might explain why Oswald then ran into the 2nd floor lunch room ahead of Baker and Truly for the 2nd floor lunch room encounter to take place.

The post-assassination lunchroom encounter between Mr Oswald, Officer Baker & Mr Truly never happened--------it seems Officer Baker did however catch an 'employee' walking away from the stairway higher up in the building. 

[Alan Ford]

No racial profiling Gerry just conflicting statements that required clarification.

 

[Dan O'meara]

Mr Williams' fingerprints were possibly found on the bottle. Just as possible that A.N.Other's (non-employee) were found on it--------and that this was the reason it was discarded...

There is no real evidence the chicken bones/bottle had anything to do with Mr Williams---or even, for that matter, the assassination. His strained attempts in his WC testimony to tie himself to them are a complete mess.

Your scenario does have the large merit of internal coherence, Mr O'Meara, but pinning Mr Williams as a co-conspirator seems to me to leave unaddressed a number of issues, such as the lack of fit between Mr Williams and Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'; Mr Rowland's sighting of two black men at the fifth floor window ~12.15pm; the improbability/absurdity of his claimed lunchtime victuals (chicken-on-the-bone sandwich); the lucky happenstance of Messrs Norman & Jarman deciding to go up to the fifth and not sixth floor (the more obvious vantage point, with or without any prior discussion amongst co-workers); Mr Williams' utter failure (odd in a co-conspirator) to say anything to incriminate Mr Oswald.

My read on Mr Williams is that the poor guy was majorly spooked out by something he saw shortly before the assassination--------or rather: it spooked him out once the assassination happened and he realised its true significance. And I suspect he was not the only employee to have had this experience.

FWIW! 

Williams WC testimony is evidence the lunch was his. His initial denial of it is evidence of guilt (a disgraceful omission by the WC), He owns up to it because his fingerprints are found on the bottle (another disgraceful omission by the WC, not to mention the destruction of such vital evidence. Follow the evidence? How?) IMO
You're hanging on the word 'elderly. but Rowland makes it absolutely clear he is not really focusing on him. When he first mentions this figure he says " It was a colored man, I think." When he is asked to go into specific detail all he can muster is "It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him (doesn't mention his clothes, height, weight etc.)
The partially eaten piece of fried chicken on the bone found in the SN puts Williams there as does Rowland's black male. The lateness of Jarman and Norman's late trip the fifth floor (why not the seventh if they're so bothered about a great view) is well attested to and there are plenty of reasons to believe Williams doesn't go down to the fifth until the last minute.
What report or indication is there of any non-employee on the 6th floor turning people back or getting them to leave?
According to Rowland, "Williams" is on the same floor as the man with the rifle for at least 10 minutes.
The scenario outlined above has the least outlandish assumptions I can think of. Not much of a measure of the 'truth'.