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Author Topic: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.  (Read 7480 times)

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2020, 01:45:34 AM »
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“Mantik doesn’t believe the things that I believe, therefore his judgment is questionable.”

 ::)

The primary reason I think Dr. David Mantik’s judgment is questionable, is not because he disagrees with me, or even because he has so often agreed with Dr. James Fetzer, but because his fundamental approach to a problem.

The movement of JFK’s head is a problem that needs to be solved. Why does it move forward (z312-z313), then backwards (z313-z318)? What caused this?

We need to consider all possibilities, even the ones that may sound far-fetched to some people. Five hundred years ago, the possibility that there were some worlds that didn’t revolve around the Earth seemed pretty far-fetched. But the correct response is to not start by discarding all the far-fetched ideas. The correct response is to keep your mind open, and let the evidence determine what you believe. Not to decided before hand what is true and skip looking through telescopes, or looking for excuses to ignore what the telescope show. The telescopes, even though they are unperfect instruments, show points of light, appearing in different patterns near Jupiter. Sometimes three on the left and one on the right, or none on the left and three on the right. But never more than four.

The correct conclusion is that there are probably 4 bodies, large enough to see, which orbit around Jupiter, like the Moon orbits around the Earth. Not to say:

“But I already know what is true and what is not true. So, I already no that all objects in the sky orbit the Earth. And that is that.”



On the question of JFK’s head movement, his stance is:

“I already know everything about the human body. I know the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis cannot be true”.

This is the wrong approach. It should not be tossed out before one looks at the data.

The movement might be explained by Physics, by the “Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” or the “Jet Effect Hypothesis”. But if either hypothesis is correct, the head and body should move with constant momentum. Or the change in momentum has to be consistent with observed acceleration of the limousine. That is simple Physics. All change in momentum must take place within 1 to 2 milliseconds, while the bullet is within the head, if the “Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” is correct. Or within 5 to 10 milliseconds if the “Jet Effect Hypothesis” is correct, the time it would take for the head to explode.

But if the “Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis” is correct, then the head may accelerate during a more extensive period, like 250 milliseconds, and accelerate more than can be accounted for by the much smaller acceleration of the limousine. And this is what the Zapruder film shows, as measured carefully by Physics graduate student William Hoffman.

Anyone who accepts the “Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” or the “Jet Effect Hypothesis”, and did so before they looked at the William Hoffman data, on the speed of the head and the speed of the limousine, has questionable judgement. They are putting the cart before the horse. You must look at the data, then form your conclusions.

Anyone who agrees with me that the “Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis” is correct, but formed this conclusion without looking at the William Hoffman data, has questionable judgement.

Only someone who has looked at the data, sees that it shows acceleration of the head for over a quarter of a second, which cannot be explained by the much smaller acceleration of the limousine, and then concludes that the “Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis” is the best hypothesis, has good judgement.

None of us are going to be right about everything, but at least don’t’ put the cart before the horse.

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2020, 01:45:34 AM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2020, 03:03:01 PM »

Earlier, Mr. Griffith made the following post:

Dr. David Mantik, who is both a physicist and a medical doctor (radiation oncology), explains some of the problems with the neuromuscular reaction theory:

Quote
The other traditional explanation for the head snap has been the "neuromuscular reaction." This was first proposed to the HSCA not by any neuroscience specialist, but by a wound ballistics expert based on his viewing old films of goats being shot in the head. To date no official testimony has been obtained from appropriate specialists (the neuroscientists) on this question. At the very least, interspecies differences in neurophysiology would leave this conclusion open at least to some doubt. In addition, the usual reaction to such brain trauma is not the highly directed movement observed in the Zapruder film but rather random muscular activity. Even Alvarez concluded that the highly directional recoil seen in the Zapruder film required the application of an external force.

Yet another objection to the decerebrate rigidity invoked by the HSCA is the time of onset; even the HSCA admitted that this would develop only after several minutes. I have been unable to find any literature references that even hint that this reaction could occur within milliseconds in human subjects-as is required for the head snap as seen in the film. Furthermore, in a large collaborative study (A.E. Walker, Cerebral Death, 1981, p. 33) with over 500 patients who experienced cerebral death, 70% were limp when observed just before death and an additional 10% became limp at about the time of death. At the very least, therefore, based on all of these considerations, the attempt by the HSCA to implicate a neuromuscular reaction is open to serious doubt. Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.

An additional argument against a neuromuscular reaction is that the observed reaction in the film is much too fast to fit with such a reflex. By the analysis of more than one study, within the space of one Zapruder frame interval (55 msec), the head clearly moves backward. Typical human reflex times are 114 to 112 second (250 to 500 msec). This is an extraordinary discrepancy-a factor of 5 to 10, which, all by itself, makes this scenario quite unlikely. (Assassination Science, pp. 281-282, PDF copy available online at https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Assassination_Science.pdf)


But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information.


On the question of “Could a bullet from the front caused JFK’s head to move backwards in the manner seen in the Zapruder film”, Dr. Mantik said:

Quote
“I do not believe that a frontal shot, with any reasonable sized rifle or bullet, could produce the observed head snap — too much energy is required.”   
   James H. Fetzer, Ph.D., ed., Assassination Science (Chicago: Catfeet Press, 1998), p. 264.

On this point, I agree with Dr. Mantik. Although I think the gradual acceleration backwards over a quarter of a second is a more telling point then the too large momentum that JFK’s head and torso ended up with, to be explained by a bullet.


Yes, it’s true, Dr. Mantik does not think that JFK’s head movement could be explained by a neuromuscular spasm. But he also doesn’t think it can be explained by a bullet from the front.

So much for Griffith’s notion that “this violent backward motion” (actually a 2-mph backward motion) can only be explained by a frontal bullet.

What is Dr. Mantik’s solution to this motion? He goes with his joint Fetzer-Mantik theory that the Zapruder film was altered. Altered to give the impression to one that does not analyze the film that there was a frontal shot. Yes, this makes perfect sense. And I guessed altered all the other films and photographs to make them all match. And didn’t worry about any film or photograph that they might be unaware of.

If Griffith is going to use Mantik for support, he should note that in addition to rejecting a hypothesis that I support, he also rejects the hypothesis that Griffith supports.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2020, 03:29:53 PM »
Earlier, Mr. Griffith made the following post:



But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information.


On the question of “Could a bullet from the front caused JFK’s head to move backwards in the manner seen in the Zapruder film”, Dr. Mantik said:

On this point, I agree with Dr. Mantik. Although I think the gradual acceleration backwards over a quarter of a second is a more telling point then the too large momentum that JFK’s head and torso ended up with, to be explained by a bullet.


Yes, it’s true, Dr. Mantik does not think that JFK’s head movement could be explained by a neuromuscular spasm. But he also doesn’t think it can be explained by a bullet from the front.

So much for Griffith’s notion that “this violent backward motion” (actually a 2-mph backward motion) can only be explained by a frontal bullet.

What is Dr. Mantik’s solution to this motion? He goes with his joint Fetzer-Mantik theory that the Zapruder film was altered. Altered to give the impression to one that does not analyze the film that there was a frontal shot. Yes, this makes perfect sense. And I guessed altered all the other films and photographs to make them all match. And didn’t worry about any film or photograph that they might be unaware of.

If Griffith is going to use Mantik for support, he should note that in addition to rejecting a hypothesis that I support, he also rejects the hypothesis that Griffith supports.

'But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information

Good call. That sums up CTers/JAQers (aka OAKers) everywhere. In short, they cheat.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 03:49:55 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2020, 03:29:53 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2020, 06:35:47 PM »

'But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information

Good call. That sums up CTers/JAQers (aka OAKers) everywhere. In short, they cheat.

Hello Bill

Yes. If I was a CTer wanting an opinion from an expert, like Dr. Zacharko, on the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis, it would only be fair to give one piece of evidence from the other side. And the principle piece of evidence that the proponents of the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis proponents have is video of animals being shot through the brain, like the video of the goat that was shot in U. S. Army tests back in the 1948. No expert weighing in on a subject should ever give an opinion without knowing the principle evidence that they other side has. Never. With no exceptions.

Sometimes Michael Griffith can be pretty funny. In one of his articles back in 1997 called:

Compelling Evidence – A New Look at the Assassination of President Kennedy

He states on page 10 that:

Quote
Many WC apologists now assert that the fierce backward motion of Kennedy’s head and upper body was “a seizure-like neuromuscular reaction to major damage inflicted to nerve centers in the brain” combined with a so-called “jet effect’. Some goats were even shot in an attempt to demonstrate the plausibility of the neuromuscular-spasm theory. However, this explanation is highly speculative at best, and the goat tests do not explain the reaction of Kennedy’s head and body as seen in the Zapruder film. In addition, the speed of Kennedy’s reaction appears to rule out this theory.

The goat tests were run to bolster the neuromuscular-spasm theory? The “goat” films were made by the U. S. Army back in 1948, to learn about the immediate effects of bullets on humans, except they obviously could not use humans.

I like to go over Michael’s paragraph in more detail, just for fun, with my comments in boldface:

Many WC apologists
Why don’t we call CTers KGB apologists, (or whatever the KGB calls itself these days) since the KGB has been financially supporting CTers, like Mark Lane since the 1960’s. Certainly the CTers have been better financed by the KGB than LNers have been by the CIA. I suppose that, just like me, you’re still waiting for your first check.
now assert that the fierce backward motion of Kennedy’s head and upper body
Michael refers to the backward head and torso movement as “is violent and rapid” or “this violent backward motion” or “fierce backward motion”, even though the top speed did not quite get to 2 mph. Calling the motion: violent and rapid makes one tend to rule out the motion as being caused by anything other than a powerful rifle bullet. Calling it a 2-mph motion does not have that effect.
was “a seizure-like neuromuscular reaction to major damage inflicted to nerve centers in the brain” combined with a so-called “jet effect’.
Some goats were even shot in an attempt to demonstrate the plausibility of the neuromuscular-spasm theory.
I guess the government was planning this assassination much longer than we realized, clear back in 1948.
However, this explanation is highly speculative at best,
The Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis is speculative but the “Push from a Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” is not? All hypotheses are speculative until one checks them out with the evidence, like the Zapruder film. One does not eliminate hypotheses without first checking the evidence.
and explain the reaction of Kennedy’s head and body as seen in the Zapruder film.
I don’t think his grammar expresses what he is trying to say very well.
In addition, the speed of Kennedy’s reaction appears to rule out this theory.
The goat start moving parts in its body after 40 milliseconds, and this rules out Kennedy reaction which started after 55 milliseconds?

By the way “JAQers” and “OAKers” are new terms to me. What do they stand for?

Joe

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2020, 07:14:02 PM »

In case anyone is looking through this thread looking for information about Dr. Robert Zacharko, the following information was found by Tim Nickerson.

Dr Robert Zacharko is commonly referred to as a neuroscientist. Hence his expertise in judging on the matter of the neuromuscular spasm hypothesis. But is this really a good description of Dr. Zacharko? A neuroscientist?

What information do I find about Dr. Zacharko on the internet:

Robert M. Zacharko, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology
Department of Psychology
Carleton University
Ottawa, Ontario Canada

By the way, Dr. Zacharko passed away at the age of 63 on January 4, 2016.


The website for the Carleton Institute of Neuroscience says:

http://www3.carleton.ca/calendars/archives/grad/9798/SCIENCE/Institute_of_Neuroscience.htm

Quote
Neuroscience is an emerging academic discipline that includes physiological, anatomical, biochemical, and behavioural studies of the nervous system

It would appear that Dr. Zacharko concentrated on behavioural studies, hence his working for the university as a Professor of Psychology.

It doesn’t sound like he was specializing in studying the nitty ditty details of what can cause neurons to fire. But if you were feeling depressed, Dr. Zacharko was your go to guy.

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2020, 07:14:02 PM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2020, 09:51:30 PM »
Earlier, Mr. Griffith made the following post:

But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information.

On the question of “Could a bullet from the front caused JFK’s head to move backwards in the manner seen in the Zapruder film”, Dr. Mantik said:

On this point, I agree with Dr. Mantik. Although I think the gradual acceleration backwards over a quarter of a second is a more telling point then the too large momentum that JFK’s head and torso ended up with, to be explained by a bullet.

Yes, it’s true, Dr. Mantik does not think that JFK’s head movement could be explained by a neuromuscular spasm. But he also doesn’t think it can be explained by a bullet from the front.

So much for Griffith’s notion that “this violent backward motion” (actually a 2-mph backward motion) can only be explained by a frontal bullet.

What is Dr. Mantik’s solution to this motion? He goes with his joint Fetzer-Mantik theory that the Zapruder film was altered. Altered to give the impression to one that does not analyze the film that there was a frontal shot. Yes, this makes perfect sense. And I guessed altered all the other films and photographs to make them all match. And didn’t worry about any film or photograph that they might be unaware of.

If Griffith is going to use Mantik for support, he should note that in addition to rejecting a hypothesis that I support, he also rejects the hypothesis that Griffith supports.

You are just non-stop propaganda and distortion, aren't you?

Folks, rather than sort through all of this guy's dishonest cherry-picking and distortions, just go read Dr. Mantik's writings, most of which are available for free online, and go read my various comments on the backward head movement in my articles. A short story even shorter: Dr. Mantik believes that the backward head movement that we now see in the Zapruder film could not have been caused by a bullet from the front (and, needless to say, not by a bullet from behind, either), and that the backward movement in the original film was not as dramatic as it now appears. Based on his examination of the skull x-rays, Dr. Mantik is certain that JFK's head was struck by a bullet from the front--he has found strong evidence of this in the skull x-rays--but that, again, no bullet from the front or back could have caused the backward head snap as it now appears in the Zapruder film.

Here is Dr. Mantik's website:

https://themantikview.com/
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 09:53:17 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2020, 10:10:14 PM »
You are just non-stop propaganda and distortion, aren't you?

Folks, rather than sort through all of this guy's dishonest cherry-picking and distortions, just go read Dr. Mantik's writings, most of which are available for free online, and go read my various comments on the backward head movement in my articles. A short story even shorter: Dr. Mantik believes that the backward head movement that we now see in the Zapruder film could not have been caused by a bullet from the front (and, needless to say, not by a bullet from behind, either), and that the backward movement in the original film was not as dramatic as it now appears. Based on his examination of the skull x-rays, Dr. Mantik is certain that JFK's head was struck by a bullet from the front--he has found strong evidence of this in the skull x-rays--but that, again, no bullet from the front or back could have caused the backward head snap as it now appears in the Zapruder film.

Here is Dr. Mantik's website:

https://themantikview.com/

No, I was accurate. Dr. Mantik made two claims:

1.   A neuromuscular spasm could not have caused JFK’s head to move back, in the manner we see in the Zapruder film.

This is what you made everyone aware of in your posts.

2.   A bullet from the front could not have caused JFK’s head to move back, in the manner we see in the Zapruder film.

This is something you kept a secret from us, until I made a post about it.

You should have mentioned that your champion said that the backward movement could not have been made by either the neuromuscular spasm nor a frontal bullet, in the manner seen in the Zapruder film.

And finally, I mentioned that Dr. Mantik got around this contradiction by saying the Zapruder film is a fake and that he believed that JFK was hit in the head by a frontal bullet.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 10:11:56 PM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2020, 11:19:53 PM »

Always has been although one of the less gifted.

BTW, all this Neuro Nutter Nonsense is pure speculation. JFK simply fainted, back and to the left...

You’re just trying to draw attention from the fact that Mr. Griffith referred to a professor of Psychology as a “Neuroscientist” to make it appear he had real expert backing for the notion that the neuromuscular spasm could not have happened to JFK.

Question:

Do you think Mr. Griffith was being dishonest by always referring to Dr. Zacharko as a neuroscientist?


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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2020, 11:19:53 PM »