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Author Topic: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories  (Read 47188 times)

Offline Michael Carney

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #296 on: August 21, 2020, 08:33:36 PM »
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Jerry,

“Would a frangible bullet not be more likely to fragment on impact to a skull replication as opposed to a watermelon rind, which is a soft tissue stimulant? The rind has some hardness and retention due to fiber but it is not hard tissue comparable to skull bone. A watermelon rind can be cut with a pointed knife with relative ease.”

If you think about it if a frangible round fragmented on impact and didn’t penetrate the skull all you would have is a flesh wound. No, with the speed and the mass of the frangible round, it will penetrate bone. If I could remember my college physics I could better explain it but the old brain doesn’t work like it used to.
“A FMJ passing through a watermelon is a soft tissue test from start to finish. Very misleading of McLaren to contend it represented a human skull.”

As far as McLaren being misleading, think of the gelatin test. They specify that a bullet must penetrate the gel 12” (not body penetration, but gel penetration) this means that the bullet has enough energy to hit the vitals from any angle, and through any barrier on the body.  It will have enough power to blast through a bone and reach the vitals underneath.  I don’t think the Armed Forces would use a bullet that would not pass muster in a gelatin ballistics test.

“So you think the 6mm measurement applies to the skull bone and not the scalp as Humes explained. I can't help you with that.”

Yes, I think the 6mm applies to the skull and not the tissue. The tissue is too pliable and one would have to use a ruler to measure a hole in tissue but for a hole In the skull they would use something like an inside taper gauge.

“The website talks about ballistic gel being a soft tissue simulant (true) but they're talking about straight-line bullet penetration range, not fragmentation or what happens when a bullet deflects.”

No, the ballistic gel is both hard and soft tissue equivalent. . See it all depends on how far the bullet penetrates the gel. If it penetrates the gel 12” then that is the equivalent of going through any amount of bone and soft tissue to get to vital organs.

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #296 on: August 21, 2020, 08:33:36 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #297 on: August 21, 2020, 08:58:27 PM »
Oh, yeah, your story is that CE 399 supposedly transited JFK's neck, then transited Connally's chest while smashing 4 inches of rib bone in the process, then transited Connally's wrist and smashed one of the hardest bones in the body in the process, and then buried itself in Connally's thigh--yet not only did this magic bullet not fragment but it emerged with its lands and grooves intact.

I don't know if I would use such ornate terms as "smashed" when the rib is a fairly thin bone easily broken in fistfights and X-rays show Connally's wrist bone did not receive a bullet that went through the bone, leaving behind a hole. Seems to be more like gliding-along and slapping off side-way injuries. The thigh injury was very superficial, the bullet wasn't found "buried" there.

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However, your story also says that the one head-shot bullet that you will acknowledge shattered into dozens of fragments, depositing two fragments in the limo and leaving about 40 fragments in the head! Yeah, makes perfect sense.[/size]

Did the SBT bullet initially encounter a skull bone? No. So the two shots have differing properties.

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You should know by now that this is false. We have already covered this issue. You are once again misrepresenting the totality of Humes's statements on the wound, and are ignoring what Finck said about the wound. As has been pointed out to you, even the WC did not stoop to the level of denying that the wound was measured to be 6.0 mm on the scalp and on the skull. That's what Humes said in the autopsy report. That's what he told the WC in one part of this testimony. And that's what Finck stated very clearly to General Blumberg.  I am sorry that you don't like the fact that in medical lingo "corresponding" means matching, fitting, etc.

The way you twist words and meaning. Spike Jones will never die.

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You pull this stunt over and over again. You make a claim; the claim is refuted; and then you post the claim again and do not even acknowledge the counter-arguments that have been presented to you about the claim. I guess you just assume that most people will only read the most recent posts in a thread or something and that therefore you can usually get away with repeating refuted claims and with not even acknowledging the counter-arguments to those claims.[/size]

LOL! You're paranoid and on the verge of cracking up.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 10:25:59 PM by Jerry Organ »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #298 on: August 21, 2020, 09:07:33 PM »
Jerry,

“Would a frangible bullet not be more likely to fragment on impact to a skull replication as opposed to a watermelon rind, which is a soft tissue stimulant? The rind has some hardness and retention due to fiber but it is not hard tissue comparable to skull bone. A watermelon rind can be cut with a pointed knife with relative ease.”

If you think about it if a frangible round fragmented on impact and didn’t penetrate the skull all you would have is a flesh wound. No, with the speed and the mass of the frangible round, it will penetrate bone. If I could remember my college physics I could better explain it but the old brain doesn’t work like it used to.

I didn't claim it won't crack the skull, or bore through it. I'm assuming it would penetrate the skull bone, but, being frangible, it would leave behind at the impact site a considerable amount of its mass.

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“A FMJ passing through a watermelon is a soft tissue test from start to finish. Very misleading of McLaren to contend it represented a human skull.”

As far as McLaren being misleading, think of the gelatin test. They specify that a bullet must penetrate the gel 12” (not body penetration, but gel penetration) this means that the bullet has enough energy to hit the vitals from any angle, and through any barrier on the body.  It will have enough power to blast through a bone and reach the vitals underneath.  I don’t think the Armed Forces would use a bullet that would not pass muster in a gelatin ballistics test.

But whatever passed through Kennedy brain didn't arrive there nose-on and intact.

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“So you think the 6mm measurement applies to the skull bone and not the scalp as Humes explained. I can't help you with that.”

Yes, I think the 6mm applies to the skull and not the tissue. The tissue is too pliable and one would have to use a ruler to measure a hole in tissue but for a hole In the skull they would use something like an inside taper gauge.

“The website talks about ballistic gel being a soft tissue simulant (true) but they're talking about straight-line bullet penetration range, not fragmentation or what happens when a bullet deflects.”

No, the ballistic gel is both hard and soft tissue equivalent. . See it all depends on how far the bullet penetrates the gel. If it penetrates the gel 12” then that is the equivalent of going through any amount of bone and soft tissue to get to vital organs.

Great test, I suppose, if the working assumption is that a FMJ bullet will be intact and nose-on after passing through a bone. McLaren would love it; the AR-15 bullet would disintegrate anyway and the FMJ bullet would plow a straight path.

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #298 on: August 21, 2020, 09:07:33 PM »


Offline Michael Carney

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #299 on: August 22, 2020, 09:37:38 PM »
Jerry

“I didn't claim it won't crack the skull, or bore through it. I'm assuming it would penetrate the skull bone, but, being frangible, it would leave behind at the impact site a considerable amount of its mass.”

What do we know about the hole, it appears to be a clean hole so the bullet did pass through the skull without any “explosion” at entry. So then the bullet travels some distance and explodes, how far we don’t know. We also know that the right of JFK’s head is blown out, shown in Zapruders film. 

“But whatever passed through Kennedy brain didn't arrive there nose-on and intact.”

No, it exploded as frangible rounds do, we just don’t know where it explodes. Moving at 3,000 ft/sec it could have traveled some distance. Of course it would have been slowed down by the impact but none the less, it was still traveling very fast.

“Great test, I suppose, if the working assumption is that a FMJ bullet will be intact and nose-on after passing through a bone. McLaren would love it; the AR-15 bullet would disintegrate anyway and the FMJ bullet would plow a straight path.”

Again, we know it will designate or explode at some point but we don’t know where.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 09:39:36 PM by Mike Carney »

Offline Michael Carney

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #300 on: August 22, 2020, 10:03:00 PM »
You don’t need to be a PhD in physics to know that with every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Forward movement, what happens when you get hit in the back of the head with something, your immediate reaction is your head moves forward, nothing magical about that. Now let’s talk about the rearward movement

It seems that the only possible explanation for the head jerking backward is the “jet-effect” or the “neuromuscular spasm” caused by the 6.5mm bullet shot from a Carcano rifle 80 yards away, moving at 1800 ft/sec.

Now let’s imagine a 5.5mm bullet shot from an M16 roughly 15 ft away traveling at 3,000 ft/sec.

Now let’s talk about the backward jolt. Imagine a small explosive device, more powerful than a cherry bomb but not as powerful as a hand grenade, next to a person’s right forehead. Now imagine it is detonated, what happens, the head jerks away from the exploded device. No argument there I take it. Now imagine I can put that device inside the head say a couple inches away from the left forehead. Now that is detonated and what happens. It blows the forehead open and spews blood and brain matter out and the power of the explosion again pushes the head away from the explosion in a backward direction.

So my theory is that the frangible bullet reaches the area in JFK’s forehead and explodes, thus the backward movement.

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #300 on: August 22, 2020, 10:03:00 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #301 on: August 23, 2020, 12:04:48 AM »
Jerry

“I didn't claim it won't crack the skull, or bore through it. I'm assuming it would penetrate the skull bone, but, being frangible, it would leave behind at the impact site a considerable amount of its mass.”

What do we know about the hole, it appears to be a clean hole so the bullet did pass through the skull without any “explosion” at entry. So then the bullet travels some distance and explodes, how far we don’t know. We also know that the right of JFK’s head is blown out, shown in Zapruders film. 

I can see a FMJ making it through the skull and leaving behind a clean hole. "Mortal Error" reported that Donahue knew the 6.5mm bullet "would have fractured mechanically, that is broken up as a result of the physical impact with the skull." We don't know the exact mechanism involved, but there is some speculation that the 6.5mm bullet, hot from being fired, would have encountered significant friction during its passage through the bone and fractured along its middle length. That portion of the lead core could liquify and send "cast-off" fragments throughout the brain. When the skull exploded (from the temporary cavity and impact on the inside of the skull) some metal fragments could end up in the scalp itself.

"Mortal Error" includes a very similar description of "cast-off" fragmentation with regard to the .233 round:

    "The missile's tumbling motion, combined with its enormous centrifugal
     velocity, then shredded the already ruptured jacket and flung the now-
     molten lead core outward in a circular pattern near the front of the brain."

The Haags fired a few 6.5mm rounds into asphalt and discovered the bullets disintegrated into minute bits.

    "In this case, a bullet traveling approximately 2100 f/s (1,432 miles per hour)
     comes to a complete stop in about 1 inch of travel in asphalt. A rough
     calculation of the decelerating forces acting on this bullet, expressed as
     gravities (g), yields a value of 1.6 million g. The relatively soft copper jacket
     disintegrates into minute fragments and the very soft lead core essentially
     vaporizes."

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“But whatever passed through Kennedy brain didn't arrive there nose-on and intact.”

No, it exploded as frangible rounds do, we just don’t know where it explodes.

"Illus. 16" shows the .223 round traveled without disintegration through a distance much greater than the brain before breaking up.

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Moving at 3,000 ft/sec it could have traveled some distance. Of course it would have been slowed down by the impact but none the less, it was still traveling very fast.

“Great test, I suppose, if the working assumption is that a FMJ bullet will be intact and nose-on after passing through a bone. McLaren would love it; the AR-15 bullet would disintegrate anyway and the FMJ bullet would plow a straight path.”

Again, we know it will designate or explode at some point but we don’t know where.

There is an Australian study on-line that may or may not relate to the AR-15. It's called "Wound Ballistic Simulation of a Headshot with .223 Rem" link. It refers to a head wound in the temporal bone. FWIW, here it is:

The Abstract:

    "In the context of a crime scene, it became necessary to examine
     whether a direct shot to the head with calibre .223 Rem. could
     happen without creating an exit wound. A simplified head model
     consisting of a bone-sphere filled with gelatine was compared with
     a more realistic model considering the inner bone structure of the
     human skull. It turned out that both models show significantly
     different behaviour. While the bullet normally penetrates the
     simplified model and causes an exit defect, it was found that bullet
     fragmentation can happen in the more realistic model due to grazing
     along inner bones. The fragments might not perforate the skin and
     remain inside the skull without creating an exit defect."

Some excerpts:

    "Experience from previous examinations is that a .223 Rem. bullet
     fired into a 15 cm block of gelatine penetrates it, creates a large
     temporary cavity and leaves an exit wound with a diameter multiple
     times the bullet’s diameter. When shooting at a simplistic head model,
     such as the one described above, this behaviour is confirmed: the
     bullet enters through the Synbone®, passes through the gelatine
     without fragmentation and exits through the Synbone® on the
     opposite side."

    "All bullets shot into the simplistic models hit the surrounding bone
     head-on and penetrated without fragmentation, leaving an exit wound
     that was afterwards widened by the temporary cavity that the bullet
     caused. The surrounding bone-sphere was heavily fragmented. This was
     observed both with skin substitute attached to the bone and without.

The .233 round went through a "simplistic head model" and did not suffer metal fragmentation.

    "The five shots using the setting shown in Figure 1 [a more realistic skull
     model] hit a flat Synbone® immediately after they left the muzzle in a
     grazing manner with an angle comparable to the angle a self-inflicted
     shot might graze along the temporal bone (see Figure 1). This setting
     causes the bullet to yaw so it hits the block of gelatine with an enlarged
     surface rather than with the top ahead (as in the case of the simplistic model).
     The force acting on the enlarged surface causes the bullet to fragment
     when it enters the block of gelatine and also subsequently.

        Out of the five shots using the setting shown in Figure 1, one fragmented
     in such a way that the biggest fragment created an exit wound on the
     opposite side. Two shots could not be analysed because the trajectory
     moved away from the camera position. The remaining two shots did not
     show any exit wound because the specific energy of the heaviest fragment
     (the steel tip of the bullet) was not high enough to perforate the skin simulant."

     "If the bullet grazes a substantial bone it starts to yaw and it fragments.
    The specific energy of the fragments is much lower than it is for the bullet
    as a whole and might not be enough to perforate the bone and the skin at
    the opposite side of the skull. The induced pressure still causes the skull to
    burst but may not cause the skin to tear. Thus, the fragments remain inside
    the head. The skull will show multiple fractures but its pieces could still be
    held together by the enveloping skin. In this case there will be no exit wound."
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 02:34:08 PM by Jerry Organ »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #302 on: August 23, 2020, 03:03:28 AM »
You don’t need to be a PhD in physics to know that with every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Forward movement, what happens when you get hit in the back of the head with something, your immediate reaction is your head moves forward, nothing magical about that. Now let’s talk about the rearward movement

It seems that the only possible explanation for the head jerking backward is the “jet-effect” or the “neuromuscular spasm” caused by the 6.5mm bullet shot from a Carcano rifle 80 yards away, moving at 1800 ft/sec.

Now let’s imagine a 5.5mm bullet shot from an M16 roughly 15 ft away traveling at 3,000 ft/sec.

Now let’s talk about the backward jolt. Imagine a small explosive device, more powerful than a cherry bomb but not as powerful as a hand grenade, next to a person’s right forehead. Now imagine it is detonated, what happens, the head jerks away from the exploded device. No argument there I take it. Now imagine I can put that device inside the head say a couple inches away from the left forehead. Now that is detonated and what happens. It blows the forehead open and spews blood and brain matter out and the power of the explosion again pushes the head away from the explosion in a backward direction.

So my theory is that the frangible bullet reaches the area in JFK’s forehead and explodes, thus the backward movement.

In McLaren's melon tests, he acknowledges his test for the FMJ duplicates what happens when such a bullet will "go straight through the body of the soldier, giving him a chance to go to the hospital and eventually go home." In other words, a soft tissue test.

McLaren then uses a ".223 frangible hollow-point round. And being a frangible round, it is designed to explode on impact. And the result is devastating."

Did Hickey's AR-15 have hollow-point frangible rounds?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 01:28:19 PM by Jerry Organ »

Offline Michael Carney

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #303 on: August 23, 2020, 03:52:38 PM »
Jerry,

You have produced some very interesting information and proving that a frangible round could enter the back of the head and make it through the brain and then explode yielding results that we see in the Zapruder film. Whether the bullet was on its way to explode traveling through the brain or whether the bullet hit the interior of the skull at JFK’s forehead area causing the explosion, we don’t know.

Was it a hollow point bullet that Hickey fired, most likely. Just thinking about it if it wasn’t, it would be nothing more than an overpowered .22 and I don’t think the military would back something like that for combat. How would that replace the M14??

Another possibility but highly unlikely is that the bullet from the grassy knoll and the bullet from Hickey’s AR15 hit each other and exploded. Either way, both scenarios’ explain JFK’s backward head movement.

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #303 on: August 23, 2020, 03:52:38 PM »