JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories

[Tim Nickerson]

When I pointed out that the backward movement of JFK’s head in the Zapruder film begins too quickly (1/18th/second or 55 milliseconds) to have been caused by a neuromuscular reaction, Elliott claimed that the goat film proved otherwise:

You are getting that (1/18th/second or 55 milliseconds) from Chambers. He is wrong. He has Kennedy being hit at Z313 and then noticeable moving backward in the next frame. Kennedy was hit between Z312 and Z313 and the ITEK report has Z315 as being the frame where Kennedy's backward movement is clearly in progress. So, the response time was 110 milliseconds or more.

[Michael T. Griffith]

You are getting that (1/18th/second or 55 milliseconds) from Chambers. He is wrong. He has Kennedy being hit at Z313 and then noticeable moving backward in the next frame. Kennedy was hit between Z312 and Z313 and the ITEK report has Z315 as being the frame where Kennedy's backward movement is clearly in progress. So, the response time was 110 milliseconds or more.

Huh?! So now JFK's head doesn't start to move backward until 315?! You'd better go back and read what Elliott himself has acknowledged on this point, not only in this thread but in the his own thread on Dr. Zacharko.

We're not talking about when the head movement is "clearly in progress" but when it begins, and it begins at Z313. Even Nicholas Nalli, in the latest attempt to salvage the jet-effect theory, says, "In Z313 the catastrophic effect of the energy deposit from a supersonic projectile passing through a human head is clearly evident. . . . showing both the initial 'forward snap' of the President's head from Z312 to Z313, along with the 'rearward lurch' from frames Z313 to Z322." Nobody but you denies this.

[Tim Nickerson]

Huh?! So now JFK's head doesn't start to move backward until 315?! You'd better go back and read what Elliott himself has acknowledged on this point, not only in this thread but in the his own thread on Dr. Zacharko.

We're not talking about when the head movement is "clearly in progress" but when it begins, and it begins at Z313. Even Nicholas Nalli, in the latest attempt to salvage the jet-effect theory, says, "In Z313 the catastrophic effect of the energy deposit from a supersonic projectile passing through a human head is clearly evident. . . . showing both the initial 'forward snap' of the President's head from Z312 to Z313, along with the 'rearward lurch' from frames Z313 to Z322." Nobody but you denies this.

It's not just me that denies it. The ITEK panel of photo and film analysis experts denied it as well.

[Joe Elliott]

You are getting that (1/18th/second or 55 milliseconds) from Chambers. He is wrong. He has Kennedy being hit at Z313 and then noticeable moving backward in the next frame. Kennedy was hit between Z312 and Z313 and the ITEK report has Z315 as being the frame where Kennedy's backward movement is clearly in progress. So, the response time was 110 milliseconds or more.

Hello Tim

You are right. I myself refer to it as 55 millisecond delay, but it was probably longer. But I don’t know about a full 110 milliseconds.

Defining time as z-312.0 – the camera shutter first opens, z-312.5 – the shutter closes, the head was probably struck about z-312.6, giving the head about 45 milliseconds to move an inch forward by z-313.0. By z-313.5, it was now just over 2 inches forward. By z314.0, it might still be 2 inches forward, it is hard to tell. But by 314.5, the head definitely started moving backwards and had already moved half an inch.

I would guess the backwards movement may have started over the interval z-312.6-314.0, or 75 milliseconds. Perhaps over the interval z-312.5-314.0 or 80 milliseconds. But not a lot more than that. If the delay was a full 110 milliseconds, by the times of z-314.5, the head would still have been 2 inches ahead of its z-312.5 position.

Joe

[Tim Nickerson]

Hello Tim

You are right. I myself refer to it as 55 millisecond delay, but it was probably longer. But I don’t know about a full 110 milliseconds.

Defining time as z-312.0 – the camera shutter first opens, z-312.5 – the shutter closes, the head was probably struck about z-312.6, giving the head about 45 milliseconds to move an inch forward by z-313.0. By z-313.5, it was now just over 2 inches forward. By z314.0, it might still be 2 inches forward, it is hard to tell. But by 314.5, the head definitely started moving backwards and had already moved half an inch.

I would guess the backwards movement may have started over the interval z-312.6-314.0, or 75 milliseconds. Perhaps over the interval z-312.5-314.0 or 80 milliseconds. But not a lot more than that. If the delay was a full 110 milliseconds, by the times of z-314.5, the head would still have been 2 inches ahead of its z-312.5 position.

Joe

Just to make sure that I'm understanding you right, by Z-314.5 you mean what we know as Z315?

[Joe Elliott]

Hi Joe,

I'm trying to find the scientific data on the goat reflex time but can't, can you tell me where to find it. Thanks

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscastur.htm

Has the testimony of Larry Sturdivan for the HSCA.

Below he explains the film of the goat shot through the brain back in U. S. Army tests made in 1948.

Mr. STURDIVAN - Let me stop the film here and explain what is going to happen. This goat is standing with his horns taped to a bar, only to preserve the aiming point of the bullet, which will come in from the right this time, not from the left, from the right, will strike the goat between the eyes. The black tape is there only to show the relative motion which we were presuming was going to be small. I should say they were presuming, since this film was taken back around 1948, I believe. The first sequence will be a normal 24-frame-per-second view of this. This is a real time. First, we will observe the neuromuscular reaction, the goat will collapse then, and by the wiggling of his tail and the tenseness of the muscles we will see what I think has sometimes been called the decerebrate rigidity, and that takes place about a second after the shot and then slowly dissipates and you will see the goat slump, obviously dead. The decerebrate reaction and terminus of the decerebrate reaction. Now, this sequence will show the same goat, exactly the same shot, but in this case the movies are taken at 2,400 frames per second. I forgot to mention that the bullet is a .30-caliber military bullet. If I can stop this at an appropriate point. Now, if you will look up at the forehead of the goat you may see a very small white spot, which was not visible on the last frame. If you can't, don't worry about it. What it is is the bullet entering the head of the goat. And if I can make sure that I have it going forward now. Four one-hundredths of a second after that impact then the neuromuscular reaction that I described begins to happen; the back legs go out, under the influence of the powerful muscles of the back legs, the front legs go upward and outward, that back arches, as the powerful back muscles overcome those of the abdomen. That was it. Now, we will show a sequence here which I think will prove my assertion. This goat was shot under identical circumstances as the last one was except he is dead before the shot. The straps that you see are suspending him but he is free to swing. If you pushed on his head he would swing gently back and forth in this rack. The bullet will come in from the right, again moving toward the left. In this case, the bullet is deflected as it goes out of the skull, and impacts on the goat near the spine, and then as you may have been able to see very dimly right behind the goat the bullet emerges from the back. It has deposited another few pound-feet per second of momentum in this goat. And then let me run it on through at real speed so you can see how much displacement that goat is given by the momentum that is deposited by the bullet. If we can bring the house lights up, it will run for another 5 minutes without showing any movement in the goat.

. . .

Mr. FAUNTROY - That explains the explosion?
Mr. STURDIVAN - Yes, sir, the explosion effect and the subsequent neuromuscular reaction that occurs roughly four one-hundredths of a second later.

[Michael T. Griffith]

It's not just me that denies it. The ITEK panel of photo and film analysis experts denied it as well.

I doubt that Itek said that JFK's head does not move backward at all in Z313. Got a link to that report? I read it years ago but no longer have it.

The HSCA noted that the particulate spray from JFK's head indicates that the explosion began in Z312:

Fragmentary material from the President's head is seen flying upward and outward in frames 313 and 314. The fragments are already airborne and in motion in frame 313. Extrapolation backwards indicates that the explosion began in frame 312 rather than 313, since this would be the frame nearest to the moment when the fragments left the head. (6 HSCA 27)

I could cite a couple dozen analyses that have determined that JFK's head begins to move backward at Z313. This has been measured. From Z313-314, the head moves backward 0.5-0.6 inches.

Until today, I had never seen anyone question this observation. But, of course, now you realize that you need more time--a lot more time, like close to 100% more time--for your neurospasm-reaction theory to even be remotely possible. So, suddenly you decide that, "oh, well, actually, the backward movement doesn't begin until  . . . Z315"!

And I see Joe Elliott is rejecting Sturdivan's specification of the reaction time in real time and is going with Sturdivan's 2400-fps-based time of 40 milliseconds. I guess real-time reaction time must be ditched to make the neurospasm-reaction theory appear to be possible. Ok, if you want to ignore the real-time time, then find me any evidence that a human neurospasm of that magnitude can occur in 40 milliseconds.

[Joe Elliott]

Ah-ha! I knew it! I just knew it! I knew there was something wrong with Joe Elliott’s description of the 1948 U.S. Army ballistics test film of a goat being shot in the head.

. . .

Anyway, to recap: The goat film that Elliott has been citing was not filmed in real time but in 2,400 fps. The real-time film of the same goat and the same test shows that the goat’s reaction did not begin until about 1,000 milliseconds after the bullet hit the skull.

What does Mr. Sturdivan say:

Mr. STURDIVAN - Let me stop the film here and explain what is going to happen. This goat is standing with his horns taped to a bar, only to preserve the aiming point of the bullet, which will come in from the right this time, not from the left, from the right, will strike the goat between the eyes. The black tape is there only to show the relative motion which we were presuming was going to be small. I should say they were presuming, since this film was taken back around 1948, I believe. The first sequence will be a normal 24-frame-per-second view of this. This is a real time. First, we will observe the neuromuscular reaction, the goat will collapse then, and by the wiggling of his tail and the tenseness of the muscles we will see what I think has sometimes been called the decerebrate rigidity, and that takes place about a second after the shot and then slowly dissipates and you will see the goat slump, obviously dead.

No where does Mr. Sturdivan say that first reaction of the goat is the “decerebrate rigidity”, which he observes happening about one second after the shot. He is saying that the last movement of the goat takes place 1,000 milliseconds after the impact of the bullet.

So, when is the soonest reaction of the goat observed? Later he states:

Four one-hundredths of a second after that impact then the neuromuscular reaction that I described begins to happen; the back legs go out, under the influence of the powerful muscles of the back legs, the front legs go upward and outward, that back arches, as the powerful back muscles overcome those of the abdomen.

His entire HSCA testimony is on the following website:

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscastur.htm

It doesn’t matter if the film is shot at 24 frames per second or 2,400 frames per second. Four one-hundredths of a second is still four one-hundredths of a second. Or 40 milliseconds. 40 milliseconds after impact, the back legs start to go out.

Ah-ahhh ! ! !


So, yes, I confess. If we define the length of time that the goat starts to react as being the last time the goat moved at all, then the goat reaction time is 1,000 milliseconds. Damm, that is one slow goat. But if we define the length of time that the goat starts to react as being the first time he starts to move, the goat’s reaction time is 40 milliseconds.


If I can define JFK’s reaction time the same way Mr. Griffith does, when the backward movement of JFK stopped, at frame 321, then JFK’s reaction time was 490 milliseconds. Well within the possible reaction time of Dr. Zacharko, Dr. Mantik and all of his other experts.

Ah-ahhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keep trying, but you haven’t got my goat yet.