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Author Topic: JFK vs Trump  (Read 13897 times)

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2020, 06:14:40 PM »
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Not as much as they are now, thanks to the Trump tax cuts.

Wrong. The graduated nature of the previous corporate income tax only substantially helped smaller companies. Larger corporations were paying an effective tax rate that was far above the 18%-21% rate in Europe and Asia and far above the new rate of 21%.



Even in terms of statutory rates, the US (part of "North America" in this chart) was seldom at an historical disadvantage to other countries.

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You realize that the new corporate income tax is *not* graduated, right? It is a flat 21%, regardless of the corporation's size.

You never addressed the average "effective" corporate tax rate, the amount that a corporation pays after exploiting all the loopholes (many more than in other countries) and exemptions. Except when you pretend above the 21% statutory rate is the effective rate ("effective tax rate ... new rate of 21%").

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And I repeat the point that the Trump tax cuts ended the decades-long foreign income loophole, which allowed U.S. corporations to park billions of dollars overseas and to avoid taxes on income earned overseas. Liberals had been calling for ending this loophole for decades, but few liberals have given Trump credit for finally doing this, because if more people knew about this aspect of the Trump tax cuts, they would not so easily swallow the liberal talking point that the tax cuts mainly helped the rich.

By the way, the JFK tax cuts reduced the top marginal rate, the rate paid by rich folks, from 91% to 70%. So JFK gave the rich a 23% tax cut. Trump cut the top marginal rate by 6.6%.


A 91% tax rate (whether personal or corporate) should be cut. An effective corporate tax rate of 15% doesn't rate the same urgency and justification for further cutting.

The economy had been slow to recover from the 1958 recession. The Kennedy cuts got through through Congress because LBJ negotiated large cuts in the budget (Trump did the opposite; increased the budget).

Still, JFK did not propose a tax cut for the One Percent on top of his own 21% cut, and the Reagan and Bush-43 tax cuts.



Americans entertain some kind of myth that they're the world's most taxed people.

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Humm, I'd like to see data on that claim.

You don't believe many large US corporations get away with paying no corporate tax?

"How These Fortune 500 Companies (Legally) Paid $0 In Taxes Last Year" (Fortune, Apr11,2019 link)
    "On the average, they got tax refunds."

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And are you counting the tens of billions of dollars that American corporations pay in state and local income taxes and property taxes?

You are aware that corporations have been known to set up in states that offer them lower or no state taxes?

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I work for a rather large corporation, and in previous years I worked for two much larger corporations. I receive pay and benefits that very few small companies would be able to match.

Corporations self-indulgently overpaying and overcompensating its "elite" entitled self-important tier and upper-management is more so the reason why US corporations couldn't compete globally than blaming it on the myth of the corporate tax rate restricting corporations.

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The last thing I want to see is my company's corporate tax rate jacked back up to 35%. I think a flat rate of 21% is more than enough.

Things were going pretty good in the early-1950s when the statutory tax rate was over 50%.

How much do American corporations reward their lower-rung workers if they relocate plants overseas? Often, their jobs are simply gone.

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Oh, just hogwash. This is Marxist hogwash. The Trump tax cut for corporations simply brought our corporate income tax rate down to the level that is common in Europe and Asia.

Everything is Marxist or Communist with Trump people. Criticizing the greed of corporations is somehow anarchy.

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You might want to remember that our corporations employ millions of Americans and pay billions of dollars each year to contribute to their employees' 401K funds, health insurance premiums, payroll taxes, and unemployment insurance. You realize that your employer pays half of your payroll tax for you, and that your employer pays into your state's unemployment insurance fund on your behalf (at no cost to you) each month, right?

Corporations just started doing those things once Trump's tax cut occurred?

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Most people want a job that provides a decent salary and good benefits, including a matching 401K, health insurance, sick leave, and vacation time. Well, who do you suppose provides the majority of those kinds of jobs?  Mom and Pop stores?  No, corporations provide most of those kinds of jobs.

Most Americans don't work for a large corporation, and most large corporations don't treat their lower-end workers as nicely as you portray. And those that are uncommonly good to workers are able to do so because they avoid paying their fair share of taxes. As well, large corporations like the auto makers provide benefits only because their workers have strong unions.

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Let us look at the rate cuts for individual income taxes in the Trump tax cuts to dispel the liberal myth that they mainly helped the rich. Keep in mind that most Americans fall into the second, third, and fourth brackets:

1st bracket -- No change (since they already paid no income taxes, and Trump increased the Earned Income Tax Credit)
2nd bracket ($20K-$79K) -- 20% reduction (from 15% to 12%)
3rd bracket ($79K-$168K -- 12% reduction (from 25% to 22%)
4th bracket ($168K-$318K) -- 14.2% reduction (from 28% to 24%)
5th bracket ($318-$410K) -- 3.1% reduction (from 33% to 32%)
6th bracket ($410K-$610K) -- No reduction (stayed at 35%)
7th bracket ($610K-plus) -- 6.6% (from 39.6% to 37%)

As you can see, the second, third, and fourth brackets, where most Americans fall, got the largest rate cuts. My monthly net income rose by over $200 thanks to the tax cuts. So please, Democrats, keep your hands off them.



The middle-class have been carrying the tax burden, while corporations get away with little or no tax. And wage-earners (not the One-Percent who do no work) will have to continue to shoulder the burden. Unless the large corporations and One-Percent get involved.

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I notice you said nothing about the fact that the Trump taxes imposed a $10K cap on SALT deductions (state and local taxes), which has taken a sizable bite out of the wallets of the rich.  For someone like me, who pays about $12K in SALT each year, the cap has meant little. But for a person who makes, say, $325K per year and pays $35K or more in SALT, the cap has cost them several thousand dollars per year for the last two years, and will continue to do so.

So you want to jack up the tax rate on our corporations back up to 35%?! Really? Why would you want to do that? You might want to talk to the millions of employees of those corporations and ask them if they would like to see their employer's taxes jacked up by 40% (14 percentage points). Why would you want to do such a thing? Do you not want American corporations to grow, to hire more people, to keep paying for benefits?

I seriously, seriously doubt that Biden would be so foolish as to undo the Trump tax cuts. He might do what Bill Clinton did to the Reagan tax cuts and what Obama did to the Bush tax cuts, i.e., raise the rate for the top brackets somewhat but leave the tax cuts for the other brackets intact. And I hope to high heaven that, if Biden wins, he doesn't undo the great growth we've seen in our business sector by jacking up the corporate income tax rate back to 35% or to anything close to that.

When I said Biden might reverse things, I was referring to "Trump's cut for the corporations (and the billionaires)".

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As many economists have pointed out, taxing corporate income is a counter-productive form of double taxation that negatively affects everyone in each corporation. Corporations already pay half of all of their employees' payroll taxes, in addition to tens of billions of dollars in state income taxes and local property taxes. Even the owners and top executives in corporations already pay taxes on their salaries. So turning around and taxing a corporation again on its profits makes no sense, if you are interested in enabling the company to grow as much as possible.

Corporations worked and competed before the Trump tax cut on corporations.

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2020, 06:14:40 PM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2020, 02:27:35 AM »
If I understand the tax cuts: The ones for the rich are permanent unless changed by an act of Congress.
The middle class tax breaks expire in 5 years I think and taxes go up above what they were before Trump.
A shell game to take advantage of the short sighted.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2020, 06:40:16 AM »

John F. Kennedy was a good president. Donald Trump is a bad president. But unfortunately, Kennedy setup the future that made the election of Trump possible. Well, not Kennedy himself but others did, by insisting on primaries.

Before 1960, presidential candidates were not chosen by the people, but largely by party insiders. Senior members of Congress. Insiders who chose candidates like Dwight Eisenhower or Adlai Stevenson. When Franklin Roosevelt health was going down, party insiders made certain that Harry Truman would be the Vice President and ready to take over as President, just in case.

If presidential candidates were chosen the way they used by be chosen, Lyndon Johnson would have been the democratic candidate in 1960. But the people wanted Kennedy and he won enough primaries to overcome the insider’s choice. In that case, the results were good. But the people’s choice is not always going to be good.

Under the old system, where primaries were few, generally, both party’s nominee was acceptable.

Now the people decide who they want. We don’t have indirect democracy any more. We have direct democracy. Direct democracy got us some good Presidents, like Kennedy. But also some bad ones, like Trump.

Indirect democracy, electing our representatives and senators, who in turn selected the presidential candidates, was a good system. It generally did not result in incompetent’s winning a party’s nomination.

Even if Trump loses, we still have a problem. We don’t know what bad choice may catch the fancy of the people in 4 to 8 years. Having Trump lose the election will be good, but it won’t fix the fundamental problem. We still have bad presidents in our future.

I think missing out on the Kennedys is probably worthwhile, if it would help us avoid getting the Trumps.

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2020, 06:40:16 AM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2020, 04:11:06 PM »
What exactly did Donald Trump do that caused these things to happen?

He cut taxes on our companies. He cut huge amounts of burdensome business regulations. He cut taxes on nearly all working Americans, which of course left them with more money to spend in the economy.

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This is just false.

No it is not. The Trump tax cuts' largest rate cuts for individual income tax rates went to the middle class:

1st bracket -- No change (since they already paid no income taxes, and Trump increased the Earned Income Tax Credit)
2nd bracket ($20K-$79K) -- 20% reduction (from 15% to 12%)
3rd bracket ($79K-$168K -- 12% reduction (from 25% to 22%)
4th bracket ($168K-$318K) -- 14.2% reduction (from 28% to 24%)
5th bracket ($318-$410K) -- 3.1% reduction (from 33% to 32%)
6th bracket ($410K-$610K) -- No reduction (stayed at 35%)
7th bracket ($610K-plus) -- 6.6% (from 39.6% to 37%)

The tax brackets are readily available online. Anyone can confirm that Trump gave the largest rate cuts to the second, third, and fourth brackets, where the vast majority of middle-income earners fall.



Offline Rick Plant

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2020, 04:23:43 PM »
What has Donald Trump achieved? Before the COVID-19 pandemic hit:

* One of the best economies in the last 50 years.

* The lowest black and Hispanic unemployment rates ever.

* The biggest jump in manufacturing jobs since the 1990s.

* A huge tax cut that gave the largest rate cuts to the middle class.

* Appointment of outstanding originalist judges to the federal judiciary.

* Selling weapons to Ukraine and Georgia.

* Negotiation of a new North American trade deal that represents a huge improvement over NAFTA.

* Ending the Obamacare penalty tax, so people aren't penalized for not buying a product they don't want.

* Improving security at our southern border to make it harder for human traffickers and drug smugglers to cross the border, and it make it harder for people to enter our country illegally.

* Providing military personnel with a sizable pay increase.

Trump was my last choice among the GOP candidates. I preferred Kasich, Carson, or Rubio, in that order.  I am often disappointed with how Trump conducts himself. Sometimes his behavior is petty and needlessly combative. But Trump has done many good things for America.

Nice bogus right wing propaganda.

The greatest economy on record was created by Barack Obama and Joe Biden. Donald Trump is a fraud and took credit for it just like he paid someone to take his SATs for him.

Manufacturing has been in a recession since last September and the economic recession started BEFORE the Trump Virus due to his bogus tariffs and tax gimmicks to the 1% that tripled the national debt. 

The middle class didn't hardly get a tax cut and are worse off than 4 years ago with finances.

Black and Hispanic unemployment is at an all time high.

We are losing and behind every major nation with Donald Trump.           

Get some new talking points.

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2020, 04:23:43 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2020, 06:18:17 PM »
He cut taxes on our companies. He cut huge amounts of burdensome business regulations. He cut taxes on nearly all working Americans, which of course left them with more money to spend in the economy.

The president doesn't have the power to cut taxes.

And what do these tax cuts have to do with "black and Hispanic unemployment rates" in particular?  It sounds like Trump is doing what he always does.  Taking all the credit for things that happen that are good, and none of the blame for the bad stuff.  And you're buying into the rhetoric.

And as Scully pointed out, what did these tax cuts do the the national debt?  There's no free lunch.

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No it is not. The Trump tax cuts' largest rate cuts for individual income tax rates went to the middle class:

This is numerical sleight of hand.  By the way, you didn't mention that your examples are current year rates for married, filing jointly taxpayers, who get a subsidy.

Another way to look at it:

1st bracket -- No change
2nd bracket ($20K-$79K) -- 3% change (from 15% to 12%)
3rd bracket ($79K-$168K -- 3% change (from 25% to 22%)
4th bracket ($168K-$318K) -- 4% change (from 28% to 24%)
5th bracket ($318-$410K) -- 1% change (from 33% to 32%)
6th bracket ($410K-$610K) -- No change (stayed at 35%)
7th bracket ($610K-plus) -- 2.6% change (from 39.6% to 37%)

Only slightly better (0.4%) for $20K-$168K than for $610K, and 168K-318K isn't exactly what is usually meant by "middle class".

Another way to look at it:

A couple making $1 billion gets a $26 million tax cut.  A couple making $20K gets a $600 tax cut.  Yes, it's just math, but don't pretend like this is some windfall to the poor or the middle class.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 06:19:35 PM by John Iacoletti »

Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2020, 08:05:33 PM »
I think Mr Griffith belongs in the other thread, "Trump supporters and conspiracy theories".

He's Exhibit A

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2020, 08:05:33 PM »


Offline Paul May

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Re: JFK vs Trump
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2020, 11:05:44 PM »
I think Mr Griffith belongs in the other thread, "Trump supporters and conspiracy theories".

He's Exhibit A
Well said.