Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2

[Martin Weidmann]

Democrats are still in full panic mode over COVID-19, for no valid reason. The COVID-19 death rate continues to drop, even though we are seeing a big jump in the number of new cases. New cases are rising because many states have reopened and because we are doing a lot more testing than we were in March, April, and May. As of yesterday afternoon, we've had 8.56 million cases and 224,710 deaths, which equals a death rate of just 2.62%, down from last week's rate of 2.67%. This means that, on average, the survival rate is 97.38%.

Let's look at California's COVID-19 stats from the CA health department's website. CA has a larger population (39.5 million) than that of many nations, including Australia, Saudi Arabia, and Greece. Among other things, we see that for ages 0-49, the death rate is either lower than the flu's death rate or the same.

Statewide Death Rate: 1.95% /// Statewide Survival Rate: 98.05%
(17,311 deaths/892,810 cases)

Ages 0-17
10.6% of the state's cases (94,637)
0.00% of the state's deaths (0)
0.00% death rate

Ages 18-49
59.8% of the state's cases (533,900)
7.1% of the state's deaths (1,229)
0.23% death rate/99.77% survival rate
(A 0.23% death rate is 4.2 times lower than 1%, the same as the flu. The flu's death rate varies between 0.15% and 0.25%, depending on the flu season in question. Five of the last nine flu seasons had a case death rate of between 0.21% and 0.25%.)

Ages 50-64
18.9% of the state's cases (168,741)
19.1% of the state's deaths (3,306)
1.97% death rate/98.03% survival rate

Ages 65-100
10.6% of the state's cases (94,638)
73.8% of the state's deaths (12,775)
13.5% death rate/86.5% survival rate

These statistics are further proof that a blanket, one-size-fits-all approach to COVID-19 is needless overkill. They are also proof that the Democrats' constant emphasis on the number of cases is misleading. For ages 0-49, COVID-19 is no more dangerous than the flu. For ages 50-64, the survival rate is over 98%, hardly Black Plague territory. And even the most at-risk age group, 65+, has a survival rate of over 86%. Clearly, the elderly (along the medically ill) are the ones who should be targeted for preventive measures, not the whole population.

If you want to check these stats, here's the  website:
https://covid19.ca.gov/state-dashboard/
(In the Infections By Group section, select Age as the filter.)

Democrats are still in full panic mode over COVID-19, for no valid reason. The COVID-19 death rate continues to drop, even though we are seeing a big jump in the number of new cases

Denial and underestimation of the seriousness of covid-19 is one of the main reasons why it is so difficult to get this disease under control. Rather than facing the hard reality of what is going on, you can argue stats until you are blue in the face but it won't solve anything and it most certainly won't make the virus disappear any time soon.

New cases are rising because many states have reopened and because we are doing a lot more testing than we were in March, April, and May.

When you agree that new cases are rising because many states have reopened, why in the world would you advocate more states being reopened. What is it going to take for the right to learn the very simple lesson? Btw the fact that more cases are found due to more testing only proves that the official number of infections is probably a lot lower than the real one.

As of yesterday afternoon, we've had 8.56 million cases and 224,710 deaths, which equals a death rate of just 2.62%, down from last week's rate of 2.67%. This means that, on average, the survival rate is 97.38%.

Your point being?.... Could it be you are advocating that we should simply do nothing and let 2.67% of the population die? Why else would you even bring up these stats?

Btw here's another stat; the USA has 4% of the world's population and 25% of the deaths.

These statistics are further proof that a blanket, one-size-fits-all approach to COVID-19 is needless overkill. They are also proof that the Democrats' constant emphasis on the number of cases is misleading.

Ignorance is bliss....

[Michael T. Griffith]

COVID-19 panic peddlers are simply ignoring the cold, hard statistical data. In the last four months, the case death rate has dropped from 5.6%-5.8% territory down to 2.7% territory, even though we've seen a huge increase in case numbers. Common sense should tell you that this proves that cooping up hundreds of millions of people and shutting down half the economy was a needless act and a bad idea. If the lockdown approach were the best answer, the death rate should be higher than it was under the lockdown, not 50% lower.

Given the renewed attacks on any kind of herd-immunity approach to COVID-19, we should take another look at Sweden's and Taiwan's approaches. Sweden and Taiwan have allowed most of their businesses and schools to stay open. Yet, COVID-19 deaths in Sweden have dropped dramatically since June, while Taiwan has had fewer cases and deaths per capita than any other nation.

From April to June, daily COVID-19 deaths in Sweden dropped by more than 50%. Since July 24, Sweden has never had more than 6 deaths on any given day, and on many days has had 0, 1, or 2 deaths. And Sweden's COVID-19 crude death rate continues to be lower than that of several other European nations.

Critics cite Sweden's COVID-19 case death rate as evidence that Sweden's modified herd-immunity approach has not worked. But this argument ignores the fact that even though Sweden has not been under a lockdown, barely 1% of Swedes have caught the virus, and the daily number of deaths has remained very low for the last four months even during periods when the number of cases has increased substantially. And, as mentioned, Sweden's crude death rate is lower than that of several other European nations.

Furthermore, Sweden's overall COVID-19 case death rate is 5.8%. Granted, that is higher than most other nations' case death rate, but it is still very low in absolute terms. A 5.8% case death rate equals a case survival rate of 94.2%.

In addition, the vast majority of Sweden's COVID-19 deaths have occurred among the elderly and the medically ill. Sweden's one mistake in its modified herd-immunity approach was that no significant efforts were made to keep the elderly and the medically ill away from other people. If this had been done, Sweden's case death rate would be far lower than 5.8%.

When we look at Sweden's COVID-19 numbers, we should keep in mind that, thanks to Sweden's moderate approach, millions of Swedes have not lost their jobs; millions of Swedes have not seen their life savings wiped out; and thousands of Swedish businesses have not been forced to shut down. By any fair measurement, Sweden's approach has been a success. 

As mentioned, Taiwan is another country that chose not to impose a lockdown, and that chose to keep most of its schools and businesses open. The results? Taiwan has had fewer than 600 cases and only 7 deaths out of a population of 24 million. Here are two articles on Taiwan's success with its very moderate approach to COVID-19:

https://www.cnbc.com/.../how-taiwan-beat-the-coronavirus...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Taiwan

[Martin Weidmann]

COVID-19 panic peddlers are simply ignoring the cold, hard statistical data. In the last four months, the case death rate has dropped from 5.6%-5.8% territory down to 2.7% territory, even though we've seen a huge increase in case numbers. Common sense should tell you that this proves that cooping up hundreds of millions of people and shutting down half the economy was a needless act and a bad idea. If the lockdown approach were the best answer, the death rate should be higher than it was under the lockdown, not 50% lower.

Given the renewed attacks on any kind of herd-immunity approach to COVID-19, we should take another look at Sweden's and Taiwan's approaches. Sweden and Taiwan have allowed most of their businesses and schools to stay open. Yet, COVID-19 deaths in Sweden have dropped dramatically since June, while Taiwan has had fewer cases and deaths per capita than any other nation.

From April to June, daily COVID-19 deaths in Sweden dropped by more than 50%. Since July 24, Sweden has never had more than 6 deaths on any given day, and on many days has had 0, 1, or 2 deaths. And Sweden's COVID-19 crude death rate continues to be lower than that of several other European nations.

Critics cite Sweden's COVID-19 case death rate as evidence that Sweden's modified herd-immunity approach has not worked. But this argument ignores the fact that even though Sweden has not been under a lockdown, barely 1% of Swedes have caught the virus, and the daily number of deaths has remained very low for the last four months even during periods when the number of cases has increased substantially. And, as mentioned, Sweden's crude death rate is lower than that of several other European nations.

Furthermore, Sweden's overall COVID-19 case death rate is 5.8%. Granted, that is higher than most other nations' case death rate, but it is still very low in absolute terms. A 5.8% case death rate equals a case survival rate of 94.2%.

In addition, the vast majority of Sweden's COVID-19 deaths have occurred among the elderly and the medically ill. Sweden's one mistake in its modified herd-immunity approach was that no significant efforts were made to keep the elderly and the medically ill away from other people. If this had been done, Sweden's case death rate would be far lower than 5.8%.

When we look at Sweden's COVID-19 numbers, we should keep in mind that, thanks to Sweden's moderate approach, millions of Swedes have not lost their jobs; millions of Swedes have not seen their life savings wiped out; and thousands of Swedish businesses have not been forced to shut down. By any fair measurement, Sweden's approach has been a success. 

As mentioned, Taiwan is another country that chose not to impose a lockdown, and that chose to keep most of its schools and businesses open. The results? Taiwan has had fewer than 600 cases and only 7 deaths out of a population of 24 million. Here are two articles on Taiwan's success with its very moderate approach to COVID-19:

https://www.cnbc.com/.../how-taiwan-beat-the-coronavirus...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Taiwan

Before you start praising Sweden, you might first consider that it has the 5th worst death rate per capita of all European countries.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/

You also might want to read this article linked to below, which will tell you;

In the population as a whole, the impact of Sweden’s approach is unmistakable. More than 94,000 people have so far been diagnosed with COVID-19, and at least 5895 have died. The country has seen roughly 590 deaths per million—on par with 591 per million in the United States and 600 in Italy, but many times the 50 per million in Norway, 108 in Denmark, and 113 in Germany.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/it-s-been-so-so-surreal-critics-sweden-s-lax-pandemic-policies-face-fierce-backlash

So much for "simply ignoring the cold, hard statistical data."

Your denial that the virus is a serious worldwide problem doesn't make it go away. It will only ensure that it will take longer to get it under control.

The bottom line is a simple one. You either;

(1) accept this is a deadly and dangerous virus and everything possible needs to be done to get rid of it as soon as possible and save as many lives as possible in the meantime, or

(2) you give priority to so-called "personal liberty", money and economic gain and simply do not care about the death toll

[Martin Weidmann]

Keep your day job, your profiling skills suck.

You protest too much.

Early on in my life I learned that if you want to know about somebody, you don't accept at face value what they say and instead look at what they do. It served me well over the years.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Before you start praising Sweden, you might first consider that it has the 5th worst death rate per capita of all European countries.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/

You also might want to read this article linked to below, which will tell you;

In the population as a whole, the impact of Sweden’s approach is unmistakable. More than 94,000 people have so far been diagnosed with COVID-19, and at least 5895 have died. The country has seen roughly 590 deaths per million—on par with 591 per million in the United States and 600 in Italy, but many times the 50 per million in Norway, 108 in Denmark, and 113 in Germany.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/it-s-been-so-so-surreal-critics-sweden-s-lax-pandemic-policies-face-fierce-backlash

So much for "simply ignoring the cold, hard statistical data."

Your denial that the virus is a serious worldwide problem doesn't make it go away. It will only ensure that it will take longer to get it under control.

The bottom line is a simple one. You either;

(1) accept this is a deadly and dangerous virus and everything possible needs to be done to get rid of it as soon as possible and save as many lives as possible in the meantime, or

(2) you give priority to so-called "personal liberty", money and economic gain and simply do not care about the death toll

You ignored every point I made and simply repeated the argument about Sweden's case death rate, which argument I addressed. So let me repeat the facts that you ignored:

* Sweden's crude death rate (the percentage of the population that has died from COVID-19) is lower than that of several other European nations. It is higher than some, lower than others.

* Sweden's daily new deaths have nearly flatlined. It has been months since Sweden had more than 10 new deaths in a day, and on many days there have only been 0, 1, 2, or 3 new deaths, far better than we are doing right now. Compare Sweden's drastic drop in daily new deaths to Michigan's numbers (Michigan and Sweden have nearly the same population size). Or compare Sweden's daily new death numbers to our numbers. Humm, could it be that their approach is proving to be the better one?

* Sweden's case death rate is 5.8%, but the vast majority of those deaths came before July. Our case death rate was between 5% and 6% during the lockdowns. 5.8% is hardly Black Plague territory. A 5.8% case death rate equals a 94.2% survival rate.

* And Sweden's has achieved these things without causing millions of job losses, without force millions of people to use up their life savings, and without shutting down thousands of businesses. 

I notice you snipped out the part about Taiwan's modified herd-immunity approach. Taiwan left their businesses and schools open. Gee, what happened? They have the lowest case death rate of any nation on earth and have had barely cases.

I also notice that you didn't bother to explain why the U.S. case death rate has dropped by over 50% even though many states have reopened and even though the number of cases has skyrocketed. If the lockdown model were correct, we should be seeing catastrophic death numbers, not a drop in both gross death numbers and in the death rate.

Here's a question to spark some thought: Can you name any other pandemic where we shut down half the economy and forced 3/4 of the population to endure lockdowns?

The 1957-1958 Asian Flu pandemic killed 116,000 Americans. With today's population, that would equal 216,000 deaths. 116K was 0.066% of the U.S. population. Our population was 175 million at the time. Our current population is 328.2 million. 0.066% of 328.2 million would be 216,000 deaths. However, in response to the Asian Flu pandemic, we did not panic and did not impose extreme lockdown measures; as a result, we did not put tens of millions of people out of work, did not force thousands of businesses to close, did not close schools all over the country, and did not require people to wear masks. Why did we not panic back then? Why are we panicking now?

[Martin Weidmann]

You ignored every point I made and simply repeated the argument about Sweden's case death rate, which argument I addressed. So let me repeat the facts that you ignored:

* Sweden's crude death rate (the percentage of the population that has died from COVID-19) is lower than that of several other European nations. It is higher than some, lower than others.

* Sweden's daily new deaths have nearly flatlined. It has been months since Sweden had more than 10 new deaths in a day, and on many days there have only been 0, 1, 2, or 3 new deaths, far better than we are doing right now. Compare Sweden's drastic drop in daily new deaths to Michigan's numbers (Michigan and Sweden have nearly the same population size). Or compare Sweden's daily new death numbers to our numbers. Humm, could it be that their approach is proving to be the better one?

* Sweden's case death rate is 5.8%, but the vast majority of those deaths came before July. Our case death rate was between 5% and 6% during the lockdowns. 5.8% is hardly Black Plague territory. A 5.8% case death rate equals a 94.2% survival rate.

* And Sweden's has achieved these things without causing millions of job losses, without force millions of people to use up their life savings, and without shutting down thousands of businesses. 

I notice you snipped out the part about Taiwan's modified herd-immunity approach. Taiwan left their businesses and schools open. Gee, what happened? They have the lowest case death rate of any nation on earth and have had barely cases.

I also notice that you didn't bother to explain why the U.S. case death rate has dropped by over 50% even though many states have reopened and even though the number of cases has skyrocketed. If the lockdown model were correct, we should be seeing catastrophic death numbers, not a drop in both gross death numbers and in the death rate.

Here's a question to spark some thought: Can you name any other pandemic where we shut down half the economy and forced 3/4 of the population to endure lockdowns?

The 1957-1958 Asian Flu pandemic killed 116,000 Americans. With today's population, that would equal 216,000 deaths. 116K was 0.066% of the U.S. population. Our population was 175 million at the time. Our current population is 328.2 million. 0.066% of 328.2 million would be 216,000 deaths. However, in response to the Asian Flu pandemic, we did not panic and did not impose extreme lockdown measures; as a result, we did not put tens of millions of people out of work, did not force thousands of businesses to close, did not close schools all over the country, and did not require people to wear masks. Why did we not panic back then? Why are we panicking now?

* Sweden's crude death rate (the percentage of the population that has died from COVID-19) is lower than that of several other European nations. It is higher than some, lower than others.

Nice try at trying to play down the actual situation. Only four other European countries have a higher rate. All the other countries have lower rates.

* Sweden's daily new deaths have nearly flatlined. It has been months since Sweden had more than 10 new deaths in a day, and on many days there have only been 0, 1, 2, or 3 new deaths, far better than we are doing right now. Compare Sweden's drastic drop in daily new deaths to Michigan's numbers (Michigan and Sweden have nearly the same population size). Or compare Sweden's daily new death numbers to our numbers. Humm, could it be that their approach is proving to be the better one?

Death rates have been lower in many European countries in recent months, despite the infection rates going up again. There's nothing special about Sweden in that regard. You can not compare the death rates of Michigan and Sweden because the size in the population isn't the only factor. Population density in Michigan is 176 per square mile. In Sweden it is 64 per square mile.

* Sweden's case death rate is 5.8%, but the vast majority of those deaths came before July. Our case death rate was between 5% and 6% during the lockdowns. 5.8% is hardly Black Plague territory. A 5.8% case death rate equals a 94.2% survival rate.

Which ignores completely that many people in Sweden stayed at home voluntary despite the authorities not imposing a lockdown.

* And Sweden's has achieved these things without causing millions of job losses, without force millions of people to use up their life savings, and without shutting down thousands of businesses. 

I have Swedish friends. You try to convince them of this being even remotely true and you'll hear their laughter all the way over the ocean. Businesses were indeed not shut down, but many of them suffered nevertheless because of a lack of clients. In June the number of bankruptcies showed a 37% increase during the previous six months compared to the same period a year earlier. Don't let a photo with some people on a terrace fool you. Sweden saw it's economy shirk by 8.6% in three months. The average of all other European countries was only marginally higher at 11.9% and that was mainly caused by the Spanish, French and Italian economies doing badly.

I notice you snipped out the part about Taiwan's modified herd-immunity approach. Taiwan left their businesses and schools open. Gee, what happened? They have the lowest case death rate of any nation on earth and have had barely cases.

I did not comment about Taiwan because I know nothing about it. I have better things to do with my life than to research every country on the planet. But if you want a real succes story, why did you ignore New Zealand? They had a nationwide lockdown and it worked. Only 1935 cases and 25 deaths.

I also notice that you didn't bother to explain why the U.S. case death rate has dropped by over 50% even though many states have reopened and even though the number of cases has skyrocketed.

That's not typical for the USA. In Europe they have the same. I'm no expert but I would say that overall there is a better preparedness now for the virus than there was in the first three months of the year.

If the lockdown model were correct, we should be seeing catastrophic death numbers, not a drop in both gross death numbers and in the death rate.

BS... It has nothing to do with the lockdown model. We're 10 months into this pandemic and a lot has been learned since the beginning. It's only logical that knowing exactly what to do, rather than guessing and trying out methods, is going to have an effect on the death rate. Same thing happened with HIV. In the early days if you contracted HIV it was a death sentence. Over time ways were found to bring the disease under control and now hardly anybody dies from HIV.

Here's a question to spark some thought: Can you name any other pandemic where we shut down half the economy and forced 3/4 of the population to endure lockdowns?

Here's a question for you; Can you name any other virus that was so dangerous and spread so easily as this one?

The 1957-1958 Asian Flu pandemic killed 116,000 Americans. With today's population, that would equal 216,000 deaths. 116K was 0.066% of the U.S. population. Our population was 175 million at the time. Our current population is 328.2 million. 0.066% of 328.2 million would be 216,000 deaths. However, in response to the Asian Flu pandemic, we did not panic and did not impose extreme lockdown measures; as a result, we did not put tens of millions of people out of work, did not force thousands of businesses to close, did not close schools all over the country, and did not require people to wear masks. Why did we not panic back then? Why are we panicking now?

Why did we not panic back then?

I don't know if they did not panic back then. It's a bogus argument because we also do not know how many less deaths there would have been if they had locked down back then, which makes the question a silly one to ask.

You could just as easily ask why there wasn't a lockdown when the Black Death killed up to 200 million people in the 14th century? Why did the American authorities tell people in the 40's and 50's to hide under the kitchen table in case a nuclear bomb exploded? The most likely answer is; lack of knowledge!

Why are we panicking now?

There was panic in the beginning for the same reason; lack of sufficient knowledge. The authorities simply did not know how to handle a pandemic like this. There is no more panic now. Wanting to lock down seriously affected areas is not the result of panic.

Spain has today announced a lock down between 10 PM and 7 AM (to prevent idiots from having dangerous parties), France has already put restrictions on bars and restaurants and so has the Netherlands. Travel restrictions between European countries are once again imposed. And even England is now beginning to see the light with lock downs in certain areas. Do you really think all those countries are doing that for fun? Do you really think they want to destroy their economies? Are could it perhaps be that they already understand something that the USA still needs to learn?

Here's something to consider;

[Michael T. Griffith]

* Sweden's crude death rate (the percentage of the population that has died from COVID-19) is lower than that of several other European nations. It is higher than some, lower than others.

Nice try at trying to play down the actual situation. Only four other European countries have a higher rate. All the other countries have lower rates.

"Only" four? The "actual situation" is that Sweden's crude death rate is lower than that of four other European nations, is close to that of two others, and is higher than that of the remaining nations.

* Sweden's daily new deaths have nearly flatlined. It has been months since Sweden had more than 10 new deaths in a day, and on many days there have only been 0, 1, 2, or 3 new deaths, far better than we are doing right now. Compare Sweden's drastic drop in daily new deaths to Michigan's numbers (Michigan and Sweden have nearly the same population size). Or compare Sweden's daily new death numbers to our numbers. Humm, could it be that their approach is proving to be the better one?

Death rates have been lower in many European countries in recent months, despite the infection rates going up again. There's nothing special about Sweden in that regard. You can not compare the death rates of Michigan and Sweden because the size in the population isn't the only factor. Population density in Michigan is 176 per square mile. In Sweden it is 64 per square mile.

That's a bit lame. Sweden's land area is also twice as large as Michigan's, although its population is nearly identical in size to Michigan's. The fact remains that Sweden's death numbers are far better than Michigan's, even though Michigan, thanks to its safety Nazi governor, is still under numerous lockdown restrictions, and has had one of the strictest lockdowns of any state.

France and Spain have averaged over 100 new deaths per day over the last four weeks. Sweden has averaged 3-4 new deaths per day for the last FOUR MONTHS.

Five months ago, Sweden's critics were predicting thousands of new deaths if Sweden did not impose a lockdown. Obviously, they were wrong, but most of them, like you, can't bring themselves to admit it.

* Sweden's case death rate is 5.8%, but the vast majority of those deaths came before July. Our case death rate was between 5% and 6% during the lockdowns. 5.8% is hardly Black Plague territory. A 5.8% case death rate equals a 94.2% survival rate.

Which ignores completely that many people in Sweden stayed at home voluntary despite the authorities not imposing a lockdown.

Uh-huh. Again, most of Sweden's businesses and schools have never closed. Someone's been patronizing those businesses. And even though most of Sweden's schools have stayed open, there has been no explosion in deaths among students.

* And Sweden's has achieved these things without causing millions of job losses, without force millions of people to use up their life savings, and without shutting down thousands of businesses. 

I have Swedish friends. You try to convince them of this being even remotely true and you'll hear their laughter all the way over the ocean. Businesses were indeed not shut down, but many of them suffered nevertheless because of a lack of clients. In June the number of bankruptcies showed a 37% increase during the previous six months compared to the same period a year earlier. Don't let a photo with some people on a terrace fool you. Sweden saw it's economy shirk by 8.6% in three months. The average of all other European countries was only marginally higher at 11.9% and that was mainly caused by the Spanish, French and Italian economies doing badly.

Uh, 11.9% is 28% higher than 8.6%--that is quite a bit more than "marginally higher." If you got a 28% raise, I'm guessing you would not describe your new salary as "only marginally higher" than your previous salary.

You have proved my point: that Sweden has not suffered as much economic damage as other nations have suffered. No one says Sweden has not suffered at all, but that the economic damage has been considerably less than in nations that imposed lockdowns.

I notice you snipped out the part about Taiwan's modified herd-immunity approach. Taiwan left their businesses and schools open. Gee, what happened? They have the lowest case death rate of any nation on earth and have had barely cases.

I did not comment about Taiwan because I know nothing about it. I have better things to do with my life than to research every country on the planet. But if you want a real succes story, why did you ignore New Zealand? They had a nationwide lockdown and it worked. Only 1935 cases and 25 deaths.

You did not mention New Zealand in your reply, so I did not "ignore" it. New Zealand is an island with a population of barely 4 million spread out over 103,000 square miles. New Zealand also imposed a strict travel ban on March 19--all travel into the country by non-citizens was banned (yet liberals went ape when Trump imposed a ban on travel from China).

How about all the other nations that imposed lockdowns? We both know that New Zealand is the rare exception. The other nations that imposed lockdowns had much different results.

I also notice that you didn't bother to explain why the U.S. case death rate has dropped by over 50% even though many states have reopened and even though the number of cases has skyrocketed.

That's not typical for the USA. In Europe they have the same. I'm no expert but I would say that overall there is a better preparedness now for the virus than there was in the first three months of the year.

"That's not typical for the USA"? Uh, yeah it is: I'm talking about the national case death rate, which has dropped dramatically since many states began to reopen, in spite of the huge jump in cases. Your experts issued innumerable dire warnings that deaths would skyrocket without lockdowns, but the opposite has happened.

If the lockdown model were correct, we should be seeing catastrophic death numbers, not a drop in both gross death numbers and in the death rate.

BS...

No, it is not. Your experts said over and over and over and over again that without lockdowns we would have 2-plus million deaths. How can you not know this? Google it. Your panic-peddling scientists were wrong, but only a few of them have admitted it.

It has nothing to do with the lockdown model. We're 10 months into this pandemic and a lot has been learned since the beginning. It's only logical that knowing exactly what to do, rather than guessing and trying out methods, is going to have an effect on the death rate.

Oh, HOGWASH. It has everything to do with the lockdown model. When some states began to reopen, your "experts" screamed bloody murder that this would lead to a huge jump in deaths. You must be kidding. The fact is that your side has been wrong over and over again, but you won't admit it.

Same thing happened with HIV. In the early days if you contracted HIV it was a death sentence. Over time ways were found to bring the disease under control and now hardly anybody dies from HIV.

This is an absurd argument. Even in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, if you caught the virus, it was far from being a "death sentence." Even in the worst death-rate months, the death rate was never above 8% nationally, which of course meant the survival rate was 92%. Even among the elderly during the worst death-rate months, the death rate was never above 25%, which meant that even among this highest risk group, the survival rate was at least 75%. This is worlds different from the early days of HIV/AIDS.

Here's a question to spark some thought: Can you name any other pandemic where we shut down half the economy and forced 3/4 of the population to endure lockdowns?

Here's a question for you; Can you name any other virus that was so dangerous and spread so easily as this one?

Yes, I can: the Spanish Flu, the Black Plague, and the Hong Kong Flu.

And, as mentioned, for people aged 0-49, COVID-19 is no more dangerous than the common flu. For ages 50-59, the death rate is 1.49%, which equals a survival rate of 98.51%. You people have recklessly scared half the population to death for no valid reason. For the vast majority of the population, COVID-19 is either less dangerous than the flu, or no more dangerous than the flu, or poses a sub-2% risk of death.

The 1957-1958 Asian Flu pandemic killed 116,000 Americans. With today's population, that would equal 216,000 deaths. 116K was 0.066% of the U.S. population. Our population was 175 million at the time. Our current population is 328.2 million. 0.066% of 328.2 million would be 216,000 deaths. However, in response to the Asian Flu pandemic, we did not panic and did not impose extreme lockdown measures; as a result, we did not put tens of millions of people out of work, did not force thousands of businesses to close, did not close schools all over the country, and did not require people to wear masks. Why did we not panic back then? Why are we panicking now?

Why did we not panic back then?

I don't know if they did not panic back then.

Well you might wanna do a little research. No, we did not panic. We did not close schools, nor shut down half the economy, nor give alarmist and distorted daily reports about it.

It's a silly question to ask. You could also ask why there wasn't a lockdown when the Black Death killed up to 200 million people in the 14th century?

Now that is a truly idiotic argument. The Black Death was far, far deadlier than COVID-19. There's no comparison. Plus, they didn't even understand how the Black Death was spread or how to combat it. So your argument is juvenile.

Why did the American authorities tell people in the 40's and 50's to hide under the kitchen table in case a nuclear bomb exploded? The most likely answer is; lack of knowledge!

Are you in high school or something? A nuclear bomb is not a virus. And for people who were more than 1 mile from Ground Zero, hiding under a table would have been a smart thing to do. Go study Hiroshima and Nagasaki: the farther away people were and the more structures they had between them and the blast, the better their chances of survival were. So American authorities had very good reasons to tell people to hide under tables in case of a nuclear attack.

Why are we panicking now?

There was panic in the beginning for the same reason; lack of sufficient knowledge. The authorities simply did not know how to handle a pandemic like this. There is no more panic now. Wanting to lock down seriously affected areas is not the result of panic.

Oh, that is total nonsense. What planet do you live on? We knew by late February that the vast majority of COVID-19 deaths in China and Italy were among the elderly and the medically ill, and that deaths among children and teens were extremely rare. Yet, your panic-peddling experts ignored these data and insisted on a one-size-fits-all panic approach.

Spain has today announced a lock down between 10 PM and 7 AM (to prevent idiots from having dangerous parties), France has already put restrictions on bars and restaurants and so has the Netherlands. Travel restrictions between European countries are once again imposed. And even England is now beginning to see the light with lock downs in certain areas. Do you really think all those countries are doing that for fun?

They're doing it because their "experts" have learned nothing from the last eight months and refuse to admit they were horribly wrong in the first place. They're doing it because their politicians are as stupid and clueless as are many of our politicians.

I just thank God that we have several governors who have had the nerve and wisdom to ignore the panic peddlers and to follow the real science, not the junk science of quacks like Fauci.

By the way, do you have any idea how many times Fauci has been caught making erroneous claims about viruses?

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/health/dr-faucis-recurring-nightmares-covid-19-might-be-his-worst-its-sure-not-his

https://justthenews.com/accountability/political-ethics/fauci-says-americans-should-trust-doctors-himself-his-career

[Martin Weidmann]

"Only" four? The "actual situation" is that Sweden's crude death rate is lower than that of four other European nations, is close to that of two others, and is higher than that of the remaining nations.

That's a bit lame. Sweden's land area is also twice as large as Michigan's, although its population is nearly identical in size to Michigan's. The fact remains that Sweden's death numbers are far better than Michigan's, even though Michigan, thanks to its safety Nazi governor, is still under numerous lockdown restrictions, and has had one of the strictest lockdowns of any state.

France and Spain have averaged over 100 new deaths per day over the last four weeks. Sweden has averaged 3-4 new deaths per day for the last FOUR MONTHS.

Five months ago, Sweden's critics were predicting thousands of new deaths if Sweden did not impose a lockdown. Obviously, they were wrong, but most of them, like you, can't bring themselves to admit it.

Uh-huh. Again, most of Sweden's businesses and schools have never closed. Someone's been patronizing those businesses. And even though most of Sweden's schools have stayed open, there has been no explosion in deaths among students.

Uh, 11.9% is 28% higher than 8.6%--that is quite a bit more than "marginally higher." If you got a 28% raise, I'm guessing you would not describe your new salary as "only marginally higher" than your previous salary.

You have proved my point: that Sweden has not suffered as much economic damage as other nations have suffered. No one says Sweden has not suffered at all, but that the economic damage has been considerably less than in nations that imposed lockdowns.

You did not mention New Zealand in your reply, so I did not "ignore" it. New Zealand is an island with a population of barely 4 million spread out over 103,000 square miles. New Zealand also imposed a strict travel ban on March 19--all travel into the country by non-citizens was banned (yet liberals went ape when Trump imposed a ban on travel from China).

How about all the other nations that imposed lockdowns? We both know that New Zealand is the rare exception. The other nations that imposed lockdowns had much different results.

"That's not typical for the USA"? Uh, yeah it is: I'm talking about the national case death rate, which has dropped dramatically since many states began to reopen, in spite of the huge jump in cases. Your experts issued innumerable dire warnings that deaths would skyrocket without lockdowns, but the opposite has happened.

No, it is not. Your experts said over and over and over and over again that without lockdowns we would have 2-plus million deaths. How can you not know this? Google it. Your panic-peddling scientists were wrong, but only a few of them have admitted it.

Oh, HOGWASH. It has everything to do with the lockdown model. When some states began to reopen, your "experts" screamed bloody murder that this would lead to a huge jump in deaths. You must be kidding. The fact is that your side has been wrong over and over again, but you won't admit it.

This is an absurd argument. Even in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, if you caught the virus, it was far from being a "death sentence." Even in the worst death-rate months, the death rate was never above 8% nationally, which of course meant the survival rate was 92%. Even among the elderly during the worst death-rate months, the death rate was never above 25%, which meant that even among this highest risk group, the survival rate was at least 75%. This is worlds different from the early days of HIV/AIDS.

Yes, I can: the Spanish Flu, the Black Plague, and the Hong Kong Flu.

And, as mentioned, for people aged 0-49, COVID-19 is no more dangerous than the common flu. For ages 50-59, the death rate is 1.49%, which equals a survival rate of 98.51%. You people have recklessly scared half the population to death for no valid reason. For the vast majority of the population, COVID-19 is either less dangerous than the flu, or no more dangerous than the flu, or poses a sub-2% risk of death.

Well you might wanna do a little research. No, we did not panic. We did not close schools, nor shut down half the economy, nor give alarmist and distorted daily reports about it.

Now that is a truly idiotic argument. The Black Death was far, far deadlier than COVID-19. There's no comparison. Plus, they didn't even understand how the Black Death was spread or how to combat it. So your argument is juvenile.

Are you in high school or something? A nuclear bomb is not a virus. And for people who were more than 1 mile from Ground Zero, hiding under a table would have been a smart thing to do. Go study Hiroshima and Nagasaki: the farther away people were and the more structures they had between them and the blast, the better their chances of survival were. So American authorities had very good reasons to tell people to hide under tables in case of a nuclear attack.

Oh, that is total nonsense. What planet do you live on? We knew by late February that the vast majority of COVID-19 deaths in China and Italy were among the elderly and the medically ill, and that deaths among children and teens were extremely rare. Yet, your panic-peddling experts ignored these data and insisted on a one-size-fits-all panic approach.

They're doing it because their "experts" have learned nothing from the last eight months and refuse to admit they were horribly wrong in the first place. They're doing it because their politicians are as stupid and clueless as are many of our politicians.

I just thank God that we have several governors who have had the nerve and wisdom to ignore the panic peddlers and to follow the real science, not the junk science of quacks like Fauci.

By the way, do you have any idea how many times Fauci has been caught making erroneous claims about viruses?

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/health/dr-faucis-recurring-nightmares-covid-19-might-be-his-worst-its-sure-not-his

https://justthenews.com/accountability/political-ethics/fauci-says-americans-should-trust-doctors-himself-his-career

I know a lost cause when I see one so I'm not going to respond to this self-serving diatribe, except for this;

They're doing it because their "experts" have learned nothing from the last eight months and refuse to admit they were horribly wrong in the first place. They're doing it because their politicians are as stupid and clueless as are many of our politicians.

I just thank God that we have several governors who have had the nerve and wisdom to ignore the panic peddlers and to follow the real science, not the junk science of quacks like Fauci.

There we have it. Calling everybody "stupid and clueless" who doesn't share your selfish pathetic and not supported by evidence or knowledge views and attack one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases with an outstanding career spanning over 50 years and main advisor to all Presidents since Ronald Reagan because you - a insignificant layman - thinks he knows better.

That really says it all....

Just to remind you of a basic fact; The USA has 4% of the population of the world and over 25% of all the world's covid deaths. Calling nations with far less deaths stupid is...... well, plain stupid!

A few posts ago I wrote;

The bottom line is a simple one. You either;

(1) accept this is a deadly and dangerous virus and everything possible needs to be done to get rid of it as soon as possible and save as many lives as possible in the meantime, or

(2) you give priority to so-called "personal liberty", money and economic gain and simply do not care about the death toll

It's pretty obvious you fall in the (2) category

By the way, do you have any idea how many times Fauci has been caught making erroneous claims about viruses?

According to whom?

And btw... do you have any idea how many times the pathetic Führer has lied in general and about the virus in particular?

It'll go way...... Pffff