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Author Topic: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2  (Read 411719 times)

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3024 on: December 25, 2020, 03:31:55 AM »
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I'm not sure if you are going to follow this, but even if Oswald did it (alone or with others) the WC cover up, to wrap the crime around him, was also a conspiracy.

Believers in Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theories all think that their theory is true, because it is an established fact, in their mind.

How to tell the difference between a Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory and a much more reasonable Conspiracy Theory?

1.   The number of people the CTer thinks were involved in the conspiracy. One hundred or more, who all keep silent throughout their life, is unbelievable.

2.   However, since many CTers are dishonest with themselves on this number, a more reliable way is to ask “What was the goal of the conspiracy”?

If they give a huge goal, this is unlikely to be obtained by a small conspiracy.

So, if the goal of the conspiracy is:

•   To have the Jews control the world – Elders of Zion Conspiracy Theory – Too large a goal for a secret conspiracy
•   To fake the Moon Landings – hundreds of thousands working on a project they think will work
•   9/11 attacks – Planting tons of explosives in large busy buildings with no one noticing.
•   2020 Presidential Election Rigging – many programmers, many others making millions of bogus ballots needed.

All of these are unbelievable because it would take a large number of people to pull this off, and then have them all remain silent about it. Or the goal is so huge it would have to be a large conspiracy.

Other conspiracy theories seem to require psychic knowledge from the conspirators:

•   The “Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor and did nothing” requires him to know ahead of time, that as a result of Pearl Harbor, Germany will declare war on the United States. Otherwise, the U. S. will be in the wrong war, not against Nazi Germany but Japan.

•   “JFK was assassination to get the U. S. in a large Vietnam war, requires the conspirators to know that North Vietnam will greatly escalate the war in 1964. Otherwise, there is no need to send a large army to defend South Vietnam. How did the conspirators know, in November 1963, that North Vietnam would do that?


Even the “Oswald did it with just a few others, but the Warren Commission covered it up” is unbelievable, because there were a lot of people involved in the Warren Commission investigation. Always having an investigator who decides to cover up something that he stumbles on is unlikely if only a few people in the investigation were involved in the coverup.


While Allan Fritzke has been heavily criticized on this thread, he really isn’t being logically inconsistent. He is doing the same sort of reasoning he always does.

The Election wasn’t rigged in just one way, by mailing in fraudulent ballots. It was rigged in many ways, like using fraudulent computers to count the ballots.

Just as many people have stepped forward to talk of being involved with Jack Ruby in various gun running and other questionable activities, many have stepped forward to say they saw people counting the same ballots over and over again, saw ballots being smuggled in, saying all sorts of things. Allan accepts all these stories just as many CTers tend to accept all the stories they hear about Jack Ruby.

The heavy use of a large number of points, hoping that something sticks, is common to both groups.

The statistical sorts of arguments so loved by many CTers in the JFK, the astronomical odds of a certain set of people involved in the JFK case dying in the next 5 years, is mirrored by the statistics that Trump himself tweets about, that the odds of Biden overtaking his lead in all 6 swing states are astronomical. Believers in Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracies tend to use the same sort of arguments for various different conspiracies.

Question:

Is the type of thinking Allan Fritzke uses to evaluate the “2020 Presidential Election was rigged” Conspiracy Theory all that different from his type of thinking regarding the “JFK” Conspiracy Theory?


If so, how is it different?

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3024 on: December 25, 2020, 03:31:55 AM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3025 on: December 25, 2020, 06:12:38 PM »
------
THEN
------



------
NOW
------

Which party will try to shut America down?

Which party will obstruct Biden from Day1?

Which party will even vote against their own
ideas so as to obstruct Biden at all costs?

« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 09:01:05 PM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3026 on: December 25, 2020, 07:57:03 PM »

------
THEN
------



------
NOW
------

Which party will try to shut America down?

Which party will obstruct Biden from Day1?

Which party will even vote against their own
ideas so as to obstruct Biden at all costs?

All this I could tolerate. Even the stupid wall. Because we need at least two parties. So, I remained a Republican and hoped for change within the party. But enough is enough.

Trump is trying to overturn a valid Presidential election. The standard first step in becoming a dictator for life. And using the usual argument, that the election was rigged.

75 % of Republican voters seem to accept this unfounded claim. Accept that the voting machines were rigged despite the manual recounts which clearly show they were not. Worse, way too many Republicans in the Senate and House seem to at least be going through the motions of supporting this. They are afraid of being primaried out. Their commitment to getting reelected is greater than their commitment to democracy, to the will of the people, to basic American principles.

I believe in Capitalism, in keeping government spending down to a reasonable level. In 1945, Britain turned against Churchill and the Conservative party and adopted socialism. But democracy remained. They followed the will of the people. Eventually, the people of Britain wised up and went back to Capitalism under Margaret Thatcher and they recovered.

Of course, Churchill would never do such a thing. He was a good man, a great man. His commitment to Democracy was always at the forefront. Never to take a back seat to his pride or anything else.

Would Britain have been better off if Churchill declared the 1945 elections rigged, voided it, and stayed in power. Perhaps in the short run. But the resulting dictatorship would become unresponsive to the will of the people and could ruin Britain down to the present day.

Democracy, the will of the people, is more important than capitalism. Besides, are the Republicans really vastly better than the Democrats at keeping government spending down?

So, enough is enough. Once the pandemic is under control, I will go re-register as a Democrat or an Independent.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 08:01:56 PM by Joe Elliott »

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3026 on: December 25, 2020, 07:57:03 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3027 on: December 25, 2020, 08:00:01 PM »

By the way, if this 2020 Presidential Election conspiracy theory continues beyond January 2021, which I am sure it will, who can doubt that we will soon see a list of mysterious deaths of Dominion Voting Systems employees, poll workers, poll watchers, and government officials involved in this controversy?

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3028 on: December 25, 2020, 09:04:38 PM »
All this I could tolerate. Even the stupid wall. Because we need at least two parties. So, I remained a Republican and hoped for change within the party. But enough is enough.

Trump is trying to overturn a valid Presidential election. The standard first step in becoming a dictator for life. And using the usual argument, that the election was rigged.

75 % of Republican voters seem to accept this unfounded claim. Accept that the voting machines were rigged despite the manual recounts which clearly show they were not. Worse, way too many Republicans in the Senate and House seem to at least be going through the motions of supporting this. They are afraid of being primaried out. Their commitment to getting reelected is greater than their commitment to democracy, to the will of the people, to basic American principles.

I believe in Capitalism, in keeping government spending down to a reasonable level. In 1945, Britain turned against Churchill and the Conservative party and adopted socialism. But democracy remained. They followed the will of the people. Eventually, the people of Britain wised up and went back to Capitalism under Margaret Thatcher and they recovered.

Of course, Churchill would never do such a thing. He was a good man, a great man. His commitment to Democracy was always at the forefront. Never to take a back seat to his pride or anything else.

Would Britain have been better off if Churchill declared the 1945 elections rigged, voided it, and stayed in power. Perhaps in the short run. But the resulting dictatorship would become unresponsive to the will of the people and could ruin Britain down to the present day.

Democracy, the will of the people, is more important than capitalism. Besides, are the Republicans really vastly better than the Democrats at keeping government spending down?

So, enough is enough. Once the pandemic is under control, I will go re-register as a Democrat or an Independent.

'Of course, Churchill would never do such a thing.
He was a good man, a great man'
Joe Elliott

------------
Not so fast
------------


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3028 on: December 25, 2020, 09:04:38 PM »


Offline Allan Fritzke

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3029 on: December 25, 2020, 09:23:13 PM »


You really need to stop repeating already debunked claims.
I am afraid you are the one  doing that.  So let us see what OSET has to offer in their video by looking at their "expert" report  listed per their Twitter account.  Please note they had one person's unsigned opinion up against a team of experts assembled by ASOG which was signed.  He seems to have knowledge and access to data provided by DVS for their Antrim County machines- according to what he said!  He must went there and looked as well!

Let me summarize what ASOG did.   Report summary for ya!

https://www.9and10news.com/content/uploads/2020/12/Antrim_Michigan_Forensics_Report_121320_v2_REDACTED.pdf   
(This link gives the same information as that from scribd.)
 
1) They made a pretty bold statement with regard to link between Smartmatic and Dominion Voting Systems (DVS) which was not backed up, but they did sign the report!  I guess they will be sued for providing false information below!

Quote
Dominion voting system is a Canadian owned company with global subsidiaries. It  is  owned  by  Staple  Street  Capital which  is  in  turn  owned  by  UBS  Securities LLC, of  which 3  out  of their 7  board  members  are  Chinese  nationals.  The Dominion  software  is  licensed  from  Smartmatic  which  is  a  Venezuelan  owned and controlled company. Dominion Server locations have been determined to be in Serbia, Canada, the US,Spain and Germany.

We do know that less that Smartmatic had its beginning out of a home in Florida.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Jos%C3%A9_Anzola  Alfredo Anzola died in 2008 in a plane crash with his lawyer on the way to a Smartmatic meeting. A happenstance death Joe!

Quote
Smartmatic was officially incorporated on April 11, 2000 in Delaware by Alfredo José Anzola.[20][21][22] Smartmatic was then a fledgling technology start-up. Its registered address was the Boca Raton, Florida, home of the father of one of the two young Venezuelan engineers who were its principal officers, Antonio Mugica and Alfredo Anzola, and it had a one—room office with a single secretary.[23] Smartmatic was a little-known firm with no experience in voting technology before it was chosen by the Venezuelan authorities to replace the country's elections machinery ahead of a contentious referendum that confirmed Hugo Chávez as president in August 2004

Fast forward to 2020,  Smartmatic was used in LA but only there in 2020 elections.  We have data that say DVS is licensed under Smartmatic because they purchased Sequoia.

https://bradblog.com/?p=6005     (2008 archive file)
Quote
Recent court documents unearthed and published by The BRAD BLOG, detailing the terms of the attempted hostile takeover of Sequoia by competitor Hart InterCivic, make clear that Smartmatic still retains the intellectual property (IP) rights over Sequoia's popular, if oft-failed e-voting systems, as well as licensing control of the software used in their voting machines and tabulators.
Quote
The employee asked about the ownership of the Intellectual Property (IP) rights of the voting systems sold in the United States by Sequoia.
Quote
"We have the source code, and we have the right to modify it any way we want to modify it," he explained to the employee, concerning the company's ongoing licensing agreement with Smartmatic. "So it doesn't matter really whether we have the IP or not."

Sequoia was sold to Domininion Voting Systems in September 2010.  Proof can be found in the career of Venezuelan Software Engineer Frederico Arnoa who has been in all the companies including Bitza!  I assume he is stating facts about himself.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/farnao/?originalSubdomain=ca


2) They forensically duplicated the hard drive from an actual machine from Antrim County with a number and software contained on it.  Otherwise, where did they get their information from to write their report?  They have provided pictures of the tower, serial number where they have dumped what was on that physical computer.   Looks like clear evidence of where their copy of the software came from.  Page 13 Dell Tower 3420 with service tag 6NBK602.  Page 13/14.  It used raid-1 where one hard drive clones to another as backup.

So this information tells me that they actually took a physical computer from Antrim County and downloaded everything from it onto another hard drive.  They have captured the software that was being used in Antrim County as of December 6, 2020 when they did this.

3) From this, they began to use the Antrim County software on that machine and looked into it.   This is the "master" machine in which govered data on memory sticks is fed in and then uploaded from there.   It was actual copy of what was on that tower Service Tag 6NBK602 from point 2.    They found that this computer contained logs that said the adjudication software was enabled for all write-in votes except on 2 logs.  The operator in these cases manually adjudicate ballots.  The picture on Page 18 shows that the software was set according to the process logs to the Weighted Inclusive Gregory Method (WIGM).   Really not sure because of redaction what that means.  Normally this weighting method is used if you have 50 candidates for 10 positions and you want the voting outcome to result in 10 positions being filled. 

Can you dispute that they obtained this information from an Antrim County Tower?   Were did they get this software from that contains this logged data as to how votes were being handled?

Now compare their findings with the critical analysis provided by an accepted expert from OSET.   This so called "debunking" statement"  is offered as opinion as it is NOT signed by Ryan Macias.  He also claims to know what exact software Antrim County on their Dell tower.  Did he do a forensic analysis or is he just making blanket statements about what they had?

https://twitter.com/OSET/status/1342193413349728256

The link goes to the good old factcheck organization to debunk the ASOG report!   Again one man, no signature and put out there as fact!

https://cdn.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/Rebuttal_ASOG-Antrim_Report.pdf

Quote
4.Antrim  County  has  not  purchased,  installed,  and  did  not  use  the  full  suite  of  the  DVS D-Suite 5.5 voting system.

So why did the software coming out of their Dell machine pictured not still have that? He is suggesting that the data found and analyzed is not from the machine!  He talks an authority on what they found on the actual tower!

Quote
5.Antrim  County  does  not  own  a  license  for,  nor  has  it  installed  the  EMS  Adjudication  software  applications  and  services.

It sure as heck doesn't look like that was what they could see in the logs uncovered by their report. 

Quote
Antrim  County does not have the Adjudication software and any ballot that would need adjudication would be conducted manually

He is making a blanket statement.  The ASOG report says that in all but 2 of the logs they examined,  the adjudication software was on.  The report set up by Ryan Macias and used by OSET in their Twitter is so full of holes that it raises even more questions.  Ryan had claimed Antrim county doesn't even own the software that was examined by ASOG and found on an "actual machine as seen by photos and tag" in their report as evidenced by the logs contained in it!   Little wonder he didn't sign that.

OSET has done nothing more than muddied the waters and put out misinformation.   Using Twitter's guideline and strict censorship rules, that Tweet and statement should be censored and the video banned from Youtube for spreading lies.

















Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3030 on: December 25, 2020, 10:11:28 PM »
I am afraid you are the one  doing that.  So let us see what OSET has to offer in their video by looking at their "expert" report  listed per their Twitter account.  Please note they had one person's unsigned opinion up against a team of experts assembled by ASOG which was signed.  He seems to have knowledge and access to data provided by DVS for their Antrim County machines- according to what he said!  He must went there and looked as well!

Let me summarize what ASOG did.   Report summary for ya!

https://www.9and10news.com/content/uploads/2020/12/Antrim_Michigan_Forensics_Report_121320_v2_REDACTED.pdf   
(This link gives the same information as that from scribd.)
 
1) They made a pretty bold statement with regard to link between Smartmatic and Dominion Voting Systems (DVS) which was not backed up, but they did sign the report!  I guess they will be sued for providing false information below!

We do know that less that Smartmatic had its beginning out of a home in Florida.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Jos%C3%A9_Anzola  Alfredo Anzola died in 2008 in a plane crash with his lawyer on the way to a Smartmatic meeting. A happenstance death Joe!

Fast forward to 2020,  Smartmatic was used in LA but only there in 2020 elections.  We have data that say DVS is licensed under Smartmatic because they purchased Sequoia.

https://bradblog.com/?p=6005     (2008 archive file)
Sequoia was sold to Domininion Voting Systems in September 2010.  Proof can be found in the career of Venezuelan Software Engineer Frederico Arnoa who has been in all the companies including Bitza!  I assume he is stating facts about himself.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/farnao/?originalSubdomain=ca


2) They forensically duplicated the hard drive from an actual machine from Antrim County with a number and software contained on it.  Otherwise, where did they get their information from to write their report?  They have provided pictures of the tower, serial number where they have dumped what was on that physical computer.   Looks like clear evidence of where their copy of the software came from.  Page 13 Dell Tower 3420 with service tag 6NBK602.  Page 13/14.  It used raid-1 where one hard drive clones to another as backup.

So this information tells me that they actually took a physical computer from Antrim County and downloaded everything from it onto another hard drive.  They have captured the software that was being used in Antrim County as of December 6, 2020 when they did this.

3) From this, they began to use the Antrim County software on that machine and looked into it.   This is the "master" machine in which govered data on memory sticks is fed in and then uploaded from there.   It was actual copy of what was on that tower Service Tag 6NBK602 from point 2.    They found that this computer contained logs that said the adjudication software was enabled for all write-in votes except on 2 logs.  The operator in these cases manually adjudicate ballots.  The picture on Page 18 shows that the software was set according to the process logs to the Weighted Inclusive Gregory Method (WIGM).   Really not sure because of redaction what that means.  Normally this weighting method is used if you have 50 candidates for 10 positions and you want the voting outcome to result in 10 positions being filled. 

Can you dispute that they obtained this information from an Antrim County Tower?   Were did they get this software from that contains this logged data as to how votes were being handled?

Now compare their findings with the critical analysis provided by an accepted expert from OSET.   This so called "debunking" statement"  is offered as opinion as it is NOT signed by Ryan Macias.  He also claims to know what exact software Antrim County on their Dell tower.  Did he do a forensic analysis or is he just making blanket statements about what they had?

https://twitter.com/OSET/status/1342193413349728256

The link goes to the good old factcheck organization to debunk the ASOG report!   Again one man, no signature and put out there as fact!

https://cdn.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/Rebuttal_ASOG-Antrim_Report.pdf

So why did the software coming out of their Dell machine pictured not still have that? He is suggesting that the data found and analyzed is not from the machine!  He talks an authority on what they found on the actual tower!

It sure as heck doesn't look like that was what they could see in the logs uncovered by their report. 

He is making a blanket statement.  The ASOG report says that in all but 2 of the logs they examined,  the adjudication software was on.  The report set up by Ryan Macias and used by OSET in their Twitter is so full of holes that it raises even more questions.  Ryan had claimed Antrim county doesn't even own the software that was examined by ASOG and found on an "actual machine as seen by photos and tag" in their report as evidenced by the logs contained in it!   Little wonder he didn't sign that.

OSET has done nothing more than muddied the waters and put out misinformation.   Using Twitter's guideline and strict censorship rules, that Tweet and statement should be censored and the video banned from Youtube for spreading lies.

Oh boy...

I don't know what resources Newmax has, but Fox News most certainly has the funds to defend itself against any lawsuit brought by Dominion or Smartmatic, if they truly believed the BS that Sidney Powell was spreading around. But they didn't risk it and broadcast a retraction. It was done in a rather pathetic way by means of this video but it was a retraction nevertheless. Newsmax went even further.

Now you can throw around all sorts of conjecture but at the end of the day the legal department of Fox News (and believe me, they have one) decided that whatever "evidence" there was, wasn't enough to risk a million dollar lawsuit that could have destroyed the network.

And, I'm not spreading misinformation or repeating debunked claims. I merely showed you two videos that speak for themselves. If - as you claim - those claims are not debunked than it's Fox News and Newsmax you need to talk to, not me.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3031 on: December 26, 2020, 01:38:47 AM »

'Of course, Churchill would never do such a thing.
He was a good man, a great man'
Joe Elliott

------------
Not so fast
------------


I didn’t say he didn’t have any racist views. I said he was committed to democracy and the rule of the people.

His views on race were typical of his generation. But no one talks of Stalin’s antisemitic views, or of punishing whole groups of people in the Soviet Union whose only crime was belonging to the wrong racial or ethnic group. Or Che Cuevara wrote "The Negro is indolent and lazy and spends his money on frivolities, whereas the European is forward-looking, organized and intelligent."

I am just wondering why, on the subject of racism, Churchill is brought up so much while the heroes of Socialism are brought up so little?

Churchill was not a perfect man. But he was a good man and a great man.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3031 on: December 26, 2020, 01:38:47 AM »