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Author Topic: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2  (Read 469105 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3120 on: January 04, 2021, 06:37:43 AM »
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From a Richard Smith post of December 01, 2020, 01:18:25 PM
From a Richard Smith post of November 21, 2020, 09:38:58 PM
Again, there is nothing here about a Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy.

Nobody said there was. Again, that’s your construct.

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Richard believes Biden got a lot more votes because they made it so much easier for the to vote because they allowed mail in ballots.

They allowed mail-in ballots before 2020 too.

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I think Richard would agree with me on this. Our biggest difference is that he sees this as unfortunate.

It’s more that that. He erroneously claims that it flipped the election. As if these mail-in voters wouldn’t have voted at all.

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I am convinced these changes were not made to give Biden an unfair advantage.

Me too. But not “Richard”. That’s the conspiracy-think.

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Nowhere, does Richard make the same charges Michael Griffith or Allan Fritzke make.

Nobody said he did. There are different levels of conspiracy-think, and different kinds of conspiracy claims.

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Two people digging a ditch is not a conspiracy. Ten people digging a tunnel is not a conspiracy. Unless the digging is kept hidden, secret, and done for some purpose, like escaping a prison. The changing of the laws to allow more mail-in ballots was done out in the open and agreed to by the legislatures.

But he went beyond that by claiming that they used the virus as a pretext with a secret agenda to give Democrats an advantage. That makes it a conspiracy.

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3120 on: January 04, 2021, 06:37:43 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3121 on: January 04, 2021, 06:41:24 AM »
How are things working out in the liberal utopias of California and NY?  Places that have been run by libs for decades.   Are people moving there or fleeing in droves?  What conclusion can be drawn from this?  Do people like high taxes, illegals pouring into their state, homeless hoards taking over the cities, riots and anarchy?  No?  Have no fear.  China Joe has no principles.  He is an establishment, do nothing politician who will only do what he is told by his paymasters.  Mostly on Wall St. and in China.  But when the radicals invoke the 25th Amendment, all bets are off.  Kantala, who received not one vote even in the primaries, will be calling the shots soon.

Classic “Richard”. Completely ignore the events of the day and spew the same old Trump propaganda.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3122 on: January 04, 2021, 06:46:00 AM »
Do any of the Trump supporters have anything to say about Trump’s phone call to the Georgia Secretary of State? Defensible? Indefensible?

Anyone?  If the Raffensperger call doesn’t convince you that Trump is a crook and a thug, then nothing possibly could. Cheers to him for recording the call. He’s already been threatened with a lawsuit for doing so (but Georgia is a one-party consent state).

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3122 on: January 04, 2021, 06:46:00 AM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3123 on: January 04, 2021, 07:30:44 AM »

GOP senators say they will reject election results unless commission is formed

Several senators, led by Senator Ted Cruz, say they will reject the Electoral College results unless a commission is appointed to conduct a 10-day audit of the results. Congress is set to count the Electoral College votes on January 6.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gop-senators-say-they-will-reject-election-results-unless-commission-is-formed/ar-BB1cqccA?ocid=msedgntp

Questions:

1.   If this this request is acted on, will President Trump directly contact the members of the commission and threaten them with criminal prosecution and make other threats to them, unless they find enough votes for him to win?

2.   Will threats be made to their families, as has happened to the Secretary of State of Arizona?


I am addressing these questions to anyone who supports Trump.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 07:31:56 AM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3124 on: January 04, 2021, 07:43:03 AM »

The Secretary of State of Georgia has been criticized for recording his conversation with President Trump and releasing it to the public.

I would like to make a few points:

1.   I doubt this is the first time Trump threaten Mr. Raffensperger. Hence, the need to make a recording. If Trump prevails and criminal charges were brought against Mr. Raffensperger, the existence of this tape would make a prosecution of Raffensperger very difficult. I think Mr. Raffensperger now has the next best thing to a Presidential pardon. You’re going to need an extremely red jury willing to overlook the possibility that any charges brought against him were politically motivated. I suspect that Mr. Raffensperger made and released this tape on the advice of his attorney, Mr. Germany (a great last name, according to Trump).

2.   The family of the Secretary of the State of Georgia has been threatened by members of the public. If this tape serves to discredit Trump it may give some level of protection to other election officials who are doing their duty.

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3124 on: January 04, 2021, 07:43:03 AM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3125 on: January 04, 2021, 05:09:43 PM »
Richard. I was wondering. Have you read the transcripts of the conversation between Trump and the Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger? I’ll provide it again below:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/politics/trump-brad-raffensperger-phone-call-transcript/index.html

Does this country need more fiscal responsibility? Yes. But does it have to come from Trump? Isn’t it time we start looking to someone else?

And by the way, was Trump really effective at reducing the deficit? Was he as good as Clinton?

Trump believes - rightly or wrongly - that he won the Georgia election by a large margin if only lawful votes are counted.  This belief is based on the not unreasonable grounds that Georgia has been a solid red state, that tens of thousands of people were showing up at his rallies (while almost none for China Joe), and certain questionable incidents resulting from the changes made in the election laws that might have affected more than the slim 11k vote margin (including that Biden received a disproportionate number of the mail in votes).

The media is spinning the call as a request to manufacture fake votes to allow Trump to steal Georgia. That is the typical negative spin. Trump is arguing that he won the election by a large margin (i.e. 400K votes) and that only a very small number of the unlawful votes against him need to be invalidated to change the outcome.  In other words, the Georgia officials don't need to find all the hundreds of thousands of unlawful votes that Trump believes were counted are invalid but only a small number.  That is a perfectly legitimate argument for him to make.  Others may disagree that there is a factual basis for his claims but Trump has not suggested anything illegal about excluding unlawful votes.   

The media also continues to falsely exaggerate reports that Georgia election officials and voters received death threats from Trump supporters.  In fact, the FBI recently confirmed those are coming from Iran in an attempt to discredit Trump's efforts.  A very real and confirmed example of foreign interference into our elections.  But the media hardly mentions that because it is inconsistent with their desired narrative.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3126 on: January 04, 2021, 05:48:14 PM »

Trump believes - rightly or wrongly - that he won the Georgia election by a large margin if only lawful votes are counted.  This belief is based on the not unreasonable grounds that Georgia has been a solid red state, that tens of thousands of people were showing up at his rallies (while almost none for China Joe), and certain questionable incidents resulting from the changes made in the election laws that might have affected more than the slim 11k vote margin (including that Biden received a disproportionate number of the mail in votes).

Well, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin were solid blue states until 2016 when Trump won them. No one stated that there must have been election fraud have changed these states. Changes in the election law are not uncommon. I think they are always tweaking the law. In some years they prune the voter lists more than other years. Just recently, a cousin of Martin Luther King Jr. was pruned form a list and unable to vote even though she hadn’t missed a Presidential election in over 40 years. We can’t declare an election invalid just because the election law was changed and the next election in a state was close.

Biden naturally received a disproportionate number of mail-in votes because he encouraged voters to mail in their ballots, because of COVID-19. Just as he discouraged large Democratic rallies. While Trump told his supporters not to mail in their ballots. So, we can’t declare this election invalid because Biden had such a high percentage of mail in ballots.

And Georgia has had a lot of people move in from out of state recently so it is natural that it’s voting pattern can change. Nothing is more common than changes in voting pattern over time for an individual state.


The media is spinning the call as a request to manufacture fake votes to allow Trump to steal Georgia. That is the typical negative spin. Trump is arguing that he won the election by a large margin (i.e. 400K votes) and that only a very small number of the unlawful votes against him need to be invalidated to change the outcome.  In other words, the Georgia officials don't need to find all the hundreds of thousands of unlawful votes that Trump believes were counted are invalid but only a small number.  That is a perfectly legitimate argument for him to make.  Others may disagree that there is a factual basis for his claims but Trump has not suggested anything illegal about excluding unlawful votes.   

This is an illegal call to pressure an election official for the votes he needs. It can’t be legal just because Trump claimed he was the real winner. If this defense is allowed, any corrupt politician and pressure an honest election official at will merely by stating that he is the true winner and the election official just has to find enough votes to partially make up for this. And be free to use his power the threaten or bribe or have others threaten him or his family. This cannot be allowed to happen merely because the corrupt politician continuously claims that he is the true winner.


The media also continues to falsely exaggerate reports that Georgia election officials and voters received death threats from Trump supporters.  In fact, the FBI recently confirmed those are coming from Iran in an attempt to discredit Trump's efforts.  A very real and confirmed example of foreign interference into our elections.  But the media hardly mentions that because it is inconsistent with their desired narrative.

Threats of criminal prosecution alone are more than enough of a threat. Trump shouldn’t have been talking directly to an election official at all, let alone be making any threats. Any information he wishes the Secretary of State to have can be passed alone by attorneys, and does not have to be conveyed directly by the President who has such power to make direct threats. The Secretary of State of Georgia did not want to talk directly to Trump and had avoided it for weeks until Trump insisted on doing so even though it looks bad to have such a conservation.

If Biden is sworn in, do you want Biden to threaten Secretary of States of various states if he loses 2024 by 7 million votes?


Again, it is not time for you to abandon the principles of fiscally responsible government. But Trump doesn’t have to be the only possible champion of this. You need to find a new champion. A champion who is not fixated on stealing an election. And given how much the deficit has been recently, was Trump really ever a true champion? In any case I think it is possible that tomorrow’s senate race in Georgia will prove to all that a new champion needs to be found. We shall see.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3127 on: January 04, 2021, 06:16:36 PM »

Question:

If a powerful corrupt politician calls an election official, and explains to him that he knows he lost the election. But he doesn’t care. He wants to win. So that election better “find him” the votes he needs to win. Otherwise, he is subject to criminal prosecution.

Is this acceptable?

If not, does it become acceptable so long as the politician always expresses the belief that he was the true winner?


And why would it be better to have the election decided by a special commission, as Senator Ted Cruz and others want, if that special commission can be subjected to threats of criminal prosecution if they fail to find that Trump was the true winner? Even if Trump is removed from office, he might still have enough clout in a state to get a criminal prosecution rolling. Why is this better than the current results we have now which, I believe, were conducted by honest officials not being threatened by criminal prosecution if he was determined that the voters voted for the wrong guy?

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3127 on: January 04, 2021, 06:16:36 PM »