Power cut important clarification required

[Richard Smith]

Where did you put your finger?

No doubt what Mooney said, he got to second by using the controls. Then power was cut.

So the power was on when he took the elevator from the first to second floor but was cut at the exact instant his passengers got off?  The ones who worked there and knew how to operate the elevator.  What a coincidence.  Mooney attributes his inability to get the elevator to work to a power outage because he can't get it to move.   He simply didn't understand the nuances of the elevator.  He may simply have not closed the gate properly and didn't realize it because he was unfamiliar with that elevator.  It's a perfectly plausible explanation from the facts.   And makes a lot more sense than an intentional cut to the elevator from someone in the building for no apparent reason.

[Bill Chapman]

He had folks on the elevator who worked there and knew how to operate the elevator.  Once he lets them off he is suddenly stuck because it is not a typical elevator.  Now let's have your analysis of how the elevator gets from the first to the second floor if its power is turned off.  And how the conspirators intended to trap the patsy in an elevator with no doors.  And why they stop an elevator going UP if their intent was to trap the patsy coming DOWN.  And how long after the assassination this Mooney elevator trip occurs.  10 minutes or more?  Your conspirator stands around in the first floor while the police are walking past for that long fiddling with the power long after the patsy is gone.   Nerves of steel but for no apparent purpose.

"And why they stop an elevator going UP if their intent was to trap the patsy coming DOWN."

Too funny, Richard! I can just see Oswald waving (and smirking) at the cops like Fernando Rey in The French Connection as the cop Hackman realizes he's been caught with his pants down.

[John Iacoletti]

I'll try again.  Some CTers - perhaps not yourself although it is difficult to follow since being a contrarian you won't take any position - contend that the power was off in the building based on the testimony of Hine.  Not just the elevators.  Repeat not just the elevators.  Follow along with your finger if that helps your reading comprehension.  So if the Hertz sign is on the same power source then it demonstrates that the power did not go off at 12:30 when CTers interpret Hine to make this claim because we can clearly see it is functional at that moment.  This has nothing to do with the elevators except they would not be operational if the power was off to the entire building.   Got that?  The power outage under discussion is broader than just the elevators.  There can be examples that go to the power outage and examples that go more specifically to just the elevators. You keep interjecting yourself in this discussion and trying to limit it to the elevators when that is not the case for many of your fellow CTers.

"Many of your fellow CTers" is just your euphemism for Richard's latest strawman.  Who suggested a building-wide power outage?  And you're so busy being an arrogant ass with your "follow along with your finger" nonsense, that you didn't even realize that Tom showed that the sign was on a completely separate meter and circuit.  It had nothing to do with the building power.

Now moving on to your narrower issue, if the power was on in the building but someone was turning off the power only to the elevators for some unknown purpose.  We know - despite the fact that you keep ignoring it - that Baker and Truly took the freight elevator to the top floor.

So what?  That somehow shows that the elevators had power when Mooney and Adams tried them?  By your twisted logic, power outages never occur anywhere, because the power is on at other times.

Tom relies upon Mooney as evidence of the power being turned off to the elevator.  Suggesting this was perhaps done to trap or delay the escape of the patsy from the upper floor (presumably Oswald).

LOL.  And you lecture me about reading comprehension.  Go ahead, quote Tom Sorenson ever saying that power to the elevators was turned off to delay the escape of the patsy from the upper floor.

  But we know a couple of things that makes that argument absurd.

Your strawman arguments usually are.

  First, Mooney was in an elevator heading UP.  The patsy they are trying to trap would have been in an elevator going DOWN.  Oswald is also already gone by that point.  He is not even in the building.

...and how do you know that?  Mary Bledsoe?  How did you even determine that it was "many minutes after the assassination" when Mooney tried the elevator?  How many minutes?

And is Mooney trapped or delayed by this power outage to his elevator

Of course he is.  Duh.  It takes more time to use the stairs.

Imagine the fantasy conspirator on the first floor hanging around while the police rush in turning the power off in plain sight to an elevator going up

So now the breaker box is "in plain sight" of the elevators on the first floor.  This just keeps getting better and better.

It's absurd and laughable.

I agree.  Your "fantasy conspirators" strawman are always absurd and laughable.  But you never deviate from the same old shtick.

Mooney simply didn't know how to properly operate that elevator.

He said "we had no more power on the elevator".  He didn't say he couldn't figure out how to work it.  He had just operated it to get to the second floor.  Do you think he forgot how to push a button?

But wait, are you also going to claim that Adams also didn't have a clue how to work an elevator that she used all the time in the building where she worked?

[John Iacoletti]

He had folks on the elevator who worked there and knew how to operate the elevator.  Once he lets them off he is suddenly stuck because it is not a typical elevator.

How was it not a "typical elevator"?  You're just making things up as you go along and digging your hole deeper.

And why they stop an elevator going UP if their intent was to trap the patsy coming DOWN.

LOL.  Richard thinks that power only works in one direction.

  And how long after the assassination this Mooney elevator trip occurs.  10 minutes or more?

You tell us, Mr. "Many Minutes".

[Richard Smith]

"Many of your fellow CTers" is just your euphemism for Richard's latest strawman.  Who suggested a building-wide power outage?  And you're so busy being an arrogant ass with your "follow along with your finger" nonsense, that you didn't even realize that Tom showed that the sign was on a completely separate meter and circuit.  It had nothing to do with the building power.

So what?  That somehow shows that the elevators had power when Mooney and Adams tried them?  By your twisted logic, power outages never occur anywhere, because the power is on at other times.

LOL.  And you lecture me about reading comprehension.  Go ahead, quote Tom Sorenson ever saying that power to the elevators was turned off to delay the escape of the patsy from the upper floor.

Your strawman arguments usually are.

...and how do you know that?  Mary Bledsoe?  How did you even determine that it was "many minutes after the assassination" when Mooney tried the elevator?  How many minutes?

Of course he is.  Duh.  It takes more time to use the stairs.

So now the breaker box is "in plain sight" of the elevators on the first floor.  This just keeps getting better and better.

I agree.  Your "fantasy conspirators" strawman are always absurd and laughable.  But you never deviate from the same old shtick.

He said "we had no more power on the elevator".  He didn't say he couldn't figure out how to work it.  He had just operated it to get to the second floor.  Do you think he forgot how to push a button?

But wait, are you also going to claim that Adams also didn't have a clue how to work an elevator that she used all the time in the building where she worked?

Johnny going to cry soon?  For a guy who whines about name calling this is a great post.  Not going to wade through yet more of your compulsion driven contrarian nonsense.  Just to note that you have dishonestly cited the information contained in Tom's article which says nothing about the sign being on a separate meter (and the article is discussing a different sign from a decade prior and not the Hertz sign).  And even if this were the case it in no way precludes a power outage to the entire building from affecting the sign.  You have previously declared victory on this point by lending support to Walt's baseless claim that the Hertz sign was battery powered.  Now without missing a beat it is suddenly on an electrical meter.  And on and on with the ad hoc reasoning.  As for the theories of other CTers about this power outage, anyone can go back and read them on this thread.  They can speak for themselves.  No reason to go through it yet again to satisfy your contrarian hobby.   

[John Iacoletti]

Johnny going to cry soon?  For a guy who whines about name calling this is a great post.  Not going to wade through yet more of your compulsion driven contrarian nonsense.

This is Richard-ese for "my ridiculous argument was destroyed, but I need to try to save face somehow".

  Just to note that you have dishonestly cited the information contained in Tom's article which says nothing about the sign being on a separate meter (and the article is discussing a different sign from a decade prior and not the Hertz sign).

From 1953, the infrastructure was in place on the TSBD roof for a devoted high voltage power line on its own independent circuit and utility meter

Face it, Richard.  You made a silly argument that the Hertz sign being illuminated at 12:30 somehow proved that there was never a power outage inside the building.  Just own it instead of trying to cover it up with your usual arrogant condescending routine.

As for the theories of other CTers about this power outage, anyone can go back and read them on this thread.  They can speak for themselves.  No reason to go through it yet again to satisfy your contrarian hobby.

Yeah, right.  No examples then.  That's what I figured, yet another Richard Smith strawman.  Do you actually think you're fooling anyone?

[Richard Smith]

This is Richard-ese for "my ridiculous argument was destroyed, but I need to try to save face somehow".


Face it, Richard.  You made a silly argument that the Hertz sign being illuminated at 12:30 somehow proved that there was never a power outage inside the building.  Just own it instead of trying to cover it up with your usual arrogant condescending routine.

Yeah, right.  No examples then.  That's what I figured, yet another Richard Smith strawman.  Do you actually think you're fooling anyone?

Note that John is citing to Tom's commentary as fact rather than the information actually contained in the article which says nothing about the sign being separately metered or continuing to function if the power to building has gone out.  Tom merely expressed his opinion on that matter.  John apparently has confused the two in his haste to be correct about something for once.  And the sign being discussed is a different sign from 1953 and not the Hertz sign.  Although I agree it may have relevance and it's a good find which puts to rest the baseless contention of Walt that Johnny so desperately wanted to be true that the Hertz sign was battery powered.  I know Johnny don't cry.  It wasn't your claim per se so you can run away now after making a big noise about it. 

[John Iacoletti]

Note that John is citing to Tom's commentary as fact rather than the information actually contained in the article which says nothing about the sign being separately metered or continuing to function if the power to building has gone out.  Tom merely expressed his opinion on that matter.

Tom doesn't "merely express his opinion" without backing it up with enormous amounts of data.  You on the other hand take your "mere opinions" and state them as facts.  For example that the Hertz sign being illuminated at 12:30 "proves" that there was never a power outage inside the building, or that Luke Mooney didn't know how to work an elevator.

Although I agree it may have relevance and it's a good find which puts to rest the baseless contention of Walt that Johnny so desperately wanted to be true that the Hertz sign was battery powered.

You just can't help yourself can you, Mr. Strawman?  Yeah, I desperately want Walt to be right, that's why I keep a list of his fabrications.  Yet, you're the one who claimed that it was connected to the TSBD power with no evidence whatsoever and then demanded that I do research to prove you wrong.  Which is how you argue every aspect of this case.  Oswald did it unless you can prove he didn't.  Oswald did it unless you can prove there was a cadre of fantasy conspirators.  Blah blah blah insult insult blah blah blah.

  I know Johnny don't cry.  It wasn't your claim per se so you can run away now after making a big noise about it.

No, but you're sure running away from the claim that you made, aren't you?  I'm not crying -- I'm laughing at your ridiculous pompousness.