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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 186747 times)

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #688 on: February 24, 2021, 05:21:08 AM »
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Jean Newman can see the front of the car at Z200. Newman's description perfectly coincides with the limousine being at the Z220s and the shot being heard then. That's about where the car had "just passed" her.

If you're arguing two shots only (based on witnesses like Newman), then the "first shot" occurred in the Z220s.

I'm saying some witnesses seem to have lost track of the first shot, probably because it missed and was perceived as a "backfire" or "firecracker" (plus motorcycles were accelerating as they left the turn and the crowd along Elm began shouting).

Could be that in some cases, the authorities asked them about the shots that struck and the witness didn't volunteer the shot that missed. Texans are independent to the level of stupidity; case-in-point: privatizing energy utilities.

No one lost track of the shots and Jean Newman was very clear as to when the first shot occurred and what JFK's reaction was to the sound. All of the eyewitnesses but Mary Woodward state JFK reacted to the first shot. The early missed shot was a nice idea but completely fails when the eyewitness testimony and physical evidence is applied or compared.

The HSCA acoustical analysis could not understand why anyone would refer to the shots as backfires.

All observers rated the rifle shots as very very loud, and they were unable to understand how they could have been described as a firecracker or backfire. Only the pistol, which was subsonic, produced a moderate loudness.

HSCA Sound Analysis:
We requested three motorcycles to be running during the test to provide some background noise that would approximate the original listening conditions in Dealey Plaza. Unfortunately, these newer motorcycles were not very noisy, but the shots were so loud that any reasonable level of background noise would have been low in comparison with the shots themselves. Our listening conditions were, therefore, essentially representative of those at the time of the assassination, except for our being able to hear some very-low-level, long-delay echoes that originally might have been inaudible.

  "The buildings around the Plaza caused strong reverberations
or echoes that followed the initial sound by from 0.5 to 1.5 sec.
While these reflections caused no confusion to our listeners
who were prepared and expected to hear them they may well
inflated the number of shots reported by the suprised witnesses
during the assassination" HSCA Earwitness Analysis Report, pgs 135-137

The HSCA like the WC believed the media influenced the number of shots reported by the witnesses. Three became the go to number because of Walter Cronkite reporting Merriman Smith's bulletin of three shots being fired. James Altgens reported two shots being fired but was never read by Cronkite.

"'While recognizing the substantial number
of people who reported shots originating from the knoll the committee
also believed the process of collecting witness testimony was such
that it would be unwise to place substantial reliance upon it. The
witnesses were interviewed over a substantial period of time some of
them several days even weeks after the assassination By that time
numerous accounts of the number and direction of the shots had been
published. The committee believed that the witnesses memories and
testimony on the number, direction, and timing of the shots may have
been substantially influenced by the intervening publicity concern
ing the events of November 22 1963"   HSCA Final Report- pg 87



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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #688 on: February 24, 2021, 05:21:08 AM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #689 on: February 24, 2021, 07:41:29 AM »
How's your Dad's grave being kept up?  You couldn't "intimidate" a flea.

Well, something is keeping the fleas away, sport.

And it's certain cockroaches (the two-legged kind) that keep coming back for more punishment. Just can't help themselves it seems.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 03:06:24 PM by Bill Chapman »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #690 on: February 24, 2021, 03:41:18 PM »
“Punishment”. LOL.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #690 on: February 24, 2021, 03:41:18 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #691 on: February 25, 2021, 03:06:01 PM »
No one lost track of the shots? Aren't you a "two shot" fellow? Then that means the three shot witnesses lost track of the shots.

That study doesn't reflect observers not expecting a sequence of gunshots, and being distracted by crowd and motorcade noise with the President of the United States and First Lady there drawing attention.
No it means the numerous two shot eyewitnesses not only knew what they heard they visually observed the event, the three shot earwitnesses did not.

The study recreated the conditions and concluded:

".....but the shots were so loud that any reasonable level of background noise would have been low in comparison with the shots themselves. Our listening conditions were, therefore, essentially representative of those at the time of the assassination, except for our being able to hear some very-low-level, long-delay echoes that originally might have been inaudible."

There is no evidence of an early missed shot, neither eyewitnesses or physical evidence. An early missed shot is nothing more than a failed attempt to lengthen the shooting sequence, nothing more.


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #692 on: February 27, 2021, 03:15:43 PM »
“Punishment”. LOL.

So you like it. Pervert.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #692 on: February 27, 2021, 03:15:43 PM »


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #693 on: March 12, 2021, 03:57:29 AM »
Mr O: JFK not being visible from Z208 to Z221 is a fact, not an opinion.
You can only guess what is going on behind the sign.
Why, exactly, would the SS and the FBI provide Mr West with a Z207 hit location, which he surveyed in on his plat at their direction?
You know better than them? 47 years later?
Ok.
The old facts changed to factoids.
Someone somewhere has Z208 Z209 Z210 Z211.
Does anyone know who & where?

« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 04:02:22 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #694 on: March 12, 2021, 06:38:57 PM »
The old facts changed to factoids.
Someone somewhere has Z208 Z209 Z210 Z211.
Does anyone know who & where?


There are frames for z208-211 that do not show the sprocket area.  These were made from the original copies of the film that Zapruder had made at the Kodak lab in Dallas when the original film was developed.  The original frames for 155, 156, (part of 157), 208, 209, 210, and 211 were damaged by Life magazine.

According to the Sixth Floor Museum:
  • "Six frames, from two different parts of the original film, were accidentally damaged by Life magazine personnel while they were preparing pictures for publication. Fortunately, three duplicate copies were made of the original film before the damage occurred. Two of those films are stored at the National Archives in Washington, D.C., and the third is in the Museum’s Zapruder Collection. The copy now in the Museum’s collection was apparently also damaged when it was at LIFE and it, too, may be lacking one or two of the “missing” frames. All frames of the film are accounted for at the National Archives."

« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 06:43:49 PM by Andrew Mason »

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #695 on: March 12, 2021, 11:37:37 PM »
There are frames for z208-211 that do not show the sprocket area.  These were made from the original copies of the film that Zapruder had made at the Kodak lab in Dallas when the original film was developed.  The original frames for 155, 156, (part of 157), 208, 209, 210, and 211 were damaged by Life magazine.

According to the Sixth Floor Museum:
  • "Six frames, from two different parts of the original film, were accidentally damaged by Life magazine personnel while they were preparing pictures for publication. Fortunately, three duplicate copies were made of the original film before the damage occurred. Two of those films are stored at the National Archives in Washington, D.C., and the third is in the Museum’s Zapruder Collection. The copy now in the Museum’s collection was apparently also damaged when it was at LIFE and it, too, may be lacking one or two of the “missing” frames. All frames of the film are accounted for at the National Archives."
Very interesting, thanx for that.
I guess that i will never see the full frames, & they will never be in Robin Unger's Gallery.
Z208 to Z211 are unlikely to show much.
About the only question re that period is when exactly is the Magic Bullet, but Connally disappears behind the sign from Z208 to Z221 (ie 14/18 seconds), hence we cant see when he has turned to his left (the time of the shot).
I reckon that the Magic Bullet is at Z218, if Connally disappears at Z208 then he might have turned left by say Z215 (ie 7/18 sec later), & then he might have turned straight again by Z222 (ie 7/18 sec later).
Some say it is at Z223, no, Connally has already turned back straight by Z223.

But the timing of the Magic Bullet aint critical i guess. Unless perhaps one wants to push the view that it was 2 bullets.

I had a look at the Museum's online footage, i stop/started it throo that bit, it doesnt seem to include the missing 4 frames.
Anyhow i aint gonna looz any sleep re Z208 to Z211.
Anyhow all of thats off topic re The First Shot.

[edit][i found the missing frames]
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2859.msg108773.html#msg108773
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 01:25:56 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #695 on: March 12, 2021, 11:37:37 PM »